Vlade speaks about WCS, George Karl, etc.
- Thread starter rainmaker
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I love it. "With cousins, without cousins, with Karl without Karl".
Sending a message to everyone, no coddling, get on board the trains leaving with or without you.
"Darren is a true King, he wants to be here, that's what we need, we need to get him help"
Love it, you need guys that want to be here, DC is a class act and true pro. I think the less roster turnover the better. We just need PG help and a starting 2, or veteran 2 to play on front or behind Ben. Casspi should be back, he just fits, and I want to see he and WCS playing together.
Sending a message to everyone, no coddling, get on board the trains leaving with or without you.
"Darren is a true King, he wants to be here, that's what we need, we need to get him help"
Love it, you need guys that want to be here, DC is a class act and true pro. I think the less roster turnover the better. We just need PG help and a starting 2, or veteran 2 to play on front or behind Ben. Casspi should be back, he just fits, and I want to see he and WCS playing together.
I'm not Kingster, but three of the teams that passed on Mudiay took (consensus) better players, one is already stacked with young guards and took a (consensus) equal player at a position of need, and one is the Knicks.
But he wasn't BPA for three of those teams, and he was a fit problem for one of them. The Knicks are really the only team that raises an eyebrow, and they went for DirkUpside. I thought Mudiay was both BPA and a good fit for the Kings. I could be wrong. And I like WCS, don't get me wrong. He makes us better. But I don't know if he can ever put us over the top - I hope so, but I don't know.
The disappointment that I have with the quote from Vlade is that he didn't say he knew enough to be comfortable passing on Mudiay, he said he didn't know enough to be comfortable picking Mudiay. I want Vlade to be acting from maximum information, and in this case he appears to not have been. We know he was recently over in Europe (and presumably getting in close looks and face time with Hezonja/Porzingis) so it's not like he was slacking on the draft. He probably knew enough about those two. And yes, Mudiay didn't go to the combine and didn't work out for us. I think it's obvious that both of those decisions (likely his agent's) didn't help him and may have hurt him.
And maybe we pin all the blame on Mudiay and his agent and none on Vlade. Fine by me. I just think it's unfortunate that we were in position to draft a kid who is widely believed to have star potential (note the word "potential") and we passed on him because we didn't know enough. This isn't some diamond in the rough that we may have missed. This is a kid we knew we needed to know enough about, and we didn't.
But he wasn't BPA for three of those teams, and he was a fit problem for one of them. The Knicks are really the only team that raises an eyebrow, and they went for DirkUpside. I thought Mudiay was both BPA and a good fit for the Kings. I could be wrong. And I like WCS, don't get me wrong. He makes us better. But I don't know if he can ever put us over the top - I hope so, but I don't know.
The disappointment that I have with the quote from Vlade is that he didn't say he knew enough to be comfortable passing on Mudiay, he said he didn't know enough to be comfortable picking Mudiay. I want Vlade to be acting from maximum information, and in this case he appears to not have been. We know he was recently over in Europe (and presumably getting in close looks and face time with Hezonja/Porzingis) so it's not like he was slacking on the draft. He probably knew enough about those two. And yes, Mudiay didn't go to the combine and didn't work out for us. I think it's obvious that both of those decisions (likely his agent's) didn't help him and may have hurt him.
And maybe we pin all the blame on Mudiay and his agent and none on Vlade. Fine by me. I just think it's unfortunate that we were in position to draft a kid who is widely believed to have star potential (note the word "potential") and we passed on him because we didn't know enough. This isn't some diamond in the rough that we may have missed. This is a kid we knew we needed to know enough about, and we didn't.
Vlade never said he wouldn't draft a guy he didn't workout/interview. He just said it's a huge minus next to their name...and it is. If you feel a player is far and above a better option then the rest of the class, you still pick that player, he obviously just didn't feel that was the case here, and I think he's right.
He also said "With me, without me." That's important. He puts himself on their level.
This guy's leadership skills are so natural. I have a feeling he's going to be the VP/GM for a looong time, and he'll go down as one of the legendary figures in Sacramento Kings history, he already is as a player, but I think his tenure as VP can even surpass that. Everything feels so right after hearing these two interviews.
This guy's leadership skills are so natural. I have a feeling he's going to be the VP/GM for a looong time, and he'll go down as one of the legendary figures in Sacramento Kings history, he already is as a player, but I think his tenure as VP can even surpass that. Everything feels so right after hearing these two interviews.
Well doesn't a PF/C, who is quick enough to guard the perimeter, can jump out of the building, runs like a deer, have some star potential too? Why is Willie's ceiling considered defensive roleplayer, while Mudiays ceiling is future Star?
For me it's really difficult to figure it out, how those assessments on those young guys work.
For me it's really difficult to figure it out, how those assessments on those young guys work.
We do know a few things. Vlade was on the record of wanting guys capable of stepping in and playing now and helping.
For me personally if it is a pg and I'm drafting at 6, looking at our roster with Rudy and Cousins I want a few things. Excellent Athlete that plays excellent defense, capable of hitting the 3 with some mid range game. Those are the two things I'd want over anything else. Mudiay based on limited knowledge as it is for us, and without our FO getting the chance to inspect in detail I decline.
I don't see the magical fit personally with the limited information.
Now BPA?
That is even harder to determine if you can't get a look at the guy.
For me personally if it is a pg and I'm drafting at 6, looking at our roster with Rudy and Cousins I want a few things. Excellent Athlete that plays excellent defense, capable of hitting the 3 with some mid range game. Those are the two things I'd want over anything else. Mudiay based on limited knowledge as it is for us, and without our FO getting the chance to inspect in detail I decline.
I don't see the magical fit personally with the limited information.
Now BPA?
That is even harder to determine if you can't get a look at the guy.
People often get overfascinated by physical traits, especially running and jumping. Mean nothing without game. Now for WCS they have translated very much to his defensive game, and that's the hope. But he can't do much on the other end, so he can run and jump all he wants, but if the ball doesn't come with him he won't be any star, while a mediocre athelte like Okafor has a shot.
Here's what the Kings couldn't do in this draft. They couldn't strike out. The ONLY way things with Karl & Boogie work out is if they start winning together. The draft is always a gamble but a high risk/high reward player is probably not the best strategy right now.
It's why I didn't see Porzingis as a good idea.
And while Mudiay looks the part of the new wave of big, electrifying PGs he's not an elite athlete and his shooting right now is abysmal. His 18 ppg 6 rpg and 5 apg look pretty good until you realize that CJ McCollum's brother Errick just led the CBA in scoring at 39.6 ppg and likeluy won't get a camp invite in the NBA. Very hard to gauge exactly how talented he is, especially when you can't see him up close and personal.
I was (and am) very intrigued with Mudiay as a prospect but with limited tape, misleading stats, definite flaws, no info from the combine (even just measurements) and an unwillingness to workout or even interview with the Kings paints the picture of a risky pick who doesn't want to play for Sacramento.
No, I'll take the athletic 7 footer who should help the Kings 29th ranked defense and 27th worst opponent shooting percentage in the paint who wants to be in Sacramento and who was the preferred pick of both Cousins and Karl as well.
It's why I didn't see Porzingis as a good idea.
And while Mudiay looks the part of the new wave of big, electrifying PGs he's not an elite athlete and his shooting right now is abysmal. His 18 ppg 6 rpg and 5 apg look pretty good until you realize that CJ McCollum's brother Errick just led the CBA in scoring at 39.6 ppg and likeluy won't get a camp invite in the NBA. Very hard to gauge exactly how talented he is, especially when you can't see him up close and personal.
I was (and am) very intrigued with Mudiay as a prospect but with limited tape, misleading stats, definite flaws, no info from the combine (even just measurements) and an unwillingness to workout or even interview with the Kings paints the picture of a risky pick who doesn't want to play for Sacramento.
No, I'll take the athletic 7 footer who should help the Kings 29th ranked defense and 27th worst opponent shooting percentage in the paint who wants to be in Sacramento and who was the preferred pick of both Cousins and Karl as well.
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Depends if he has the IQ to use these physical traits for his advantage. And if a player becomes a star is actually more a question of opportunity, work ethic and the coaching staff, that develops his skillset, than it's about potential when coming out of college.
Actually great athlete is a solid foundation to build on, especially as a PF/C.
Actually great athlete is a solid foundation to build on, especially as a PF/C.
And I'm also on the Vlade bandwagon. Obviously I'd have no faith in D'Alessandro overseeing this struggle with Karl and Cousins. But as much as I liked Petrie I don't think he'd do nearly as well with it. In fact we saw him struggle with Cousins & Westphal.
This mess may not get fixed but if anyone can a guy like Vlade with his personality, consensus building ability and gravitas is exactly who I want attempting the task.
This mess may not get fixed but if anyone can a guy like Vlade with his personality, consensus building ability and gravitas is exactly who I want attempting the task.
i have so much trouble with this logic. how are you going "to know enough about" a prospect that's only played in high school and a smattering of games for a chinese basketball club, a context in which it's tremendously difficult to gauge whether or not performances against that particular level of competition will even translate to the nba? and how are you going "to know enough about" that same prospect when he refuses to participate in the draft combine, refuses to workout for your team, and refuses to even interview with you? it's vlade divac's first offseason on the job, after back-to-back offseasons in which the kings drafted guards who haven't yet produced adequately for this team. perhaps the safer pick was the smarter pick...
vlade's mantra since he arrived has been that this team needs stability. it appears to me that vlade is much less interested in trying to justify passing on emmanuel mudiay (or not picking emmanuel mudiay, depending on your semantic preference), and much more interested in justifying his actual selection, a player in willie cauley-stein who can help stabilize a kings frontcourt that could certainly use his nba-ready defensive versatility. i don't think vlade's interested in waiting around to see if a draft pick like mudiay will turn out as special as everyone hopes he will be in a few years. the draft, after all, is where dreams go to die. every year, teams and their fans believe that they've hit a home run when they select some mysterious young prospect or another (dante exum comes to mind). every year, some of those teams and their fans end up disappointed...
vlade's mantra since he arrived has been that this team needs stability. it appears to me that vlade is much less interested in trying to justify passing on emmanuel mudiay (or not picking emmanuel mudiay, depending on your semantic preference), and much more interested in justifying his actual selection, a player in willie cauley-stein who can help stabilize a kings frontcourt that could certainly use his nba-ready defensive versatility. i don't think vlade's interested in waiting around to see if a draft pick like mudiay will turn out as special as everyone hopes he will be in a few years. the draft, after all, is where dreams go to die. every year, teams and their fans believe that they've hit a home run when they select some mysterious young prospect or another (dante exum comes to mind). every year, some of those teams and their fans end up disappointed...
I haven't seen much of Mudiay, but from the situation, he is screaming bust to me.
For all the reasons mentioned here, plus the biggest one - China is a joke of a league (no defense), and the stats there don't mean anything.
http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/700-level/want-sixers-draft-mudiay-his-cba-stats-may-be-misleading
Which means, basically the guy was good in high school and has been dodging real competition ever since, dodged the combine, dodged workouts, interviews, etc.
Like I predicted weeks ago, he didn't go before 6.
There are two reasons to explain why he refused to work out or talk to the team picking at 6:
1) He knows that hype is all he has, and anyone finding out more about who he really is means he loses draft value.
2) He doesn't want to play for the Kings.
Either way, the Kings would be monumentally stupid and reckless to pick that guy.
KF's are similarly reckless for complaining that he wasn't chosen with all these warning flags.
I am intrigued that Denver selected him - it will be ironic indeed if they prove to be the team that ignored all those warning signs and still selected him on hype. We'll be in the catbird seat for gloating if he fails, and we'll be constantly reminded "What If" if he pans out.
For all the reasons mentioned here, plus the biggest one - China is a joke of a league (no defense), and the stats there don't mean anything.
http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/700-level/want-sixers-draft-mudiay-his-cba-stats-may-be-misleading
Which means, basically the guy was good in high school and has been dodging real competition ever since, dodged the combine, dodged workouts, interviews, etc.
Like I predicted weeks ago, he didn't go before 6.
There are two reasons to explain why he refused to work out or talk to the team picking at 6:
1) He knows that hype is all he has, and anyone finding out more about who he really is means he loses draft value.
2) He doesn't want to play for the Kings.
Either way, the Kings would be monumentally stupid and reckless to pick that guy.
KF's are similarly reckless for complaining that he wasn't chosen with all these warning flags.
I am intrigued that Denver selected him - it will be ironic indeed if they prove to be the team that ignored all those warning signs and still selected him on hype. We'll be in the catbird seat for gloating if he fails, and we'll be constantly reminded "What If" if he pans out.
Seriously Capt? You're going to be disappointed in Vlade because of his choice of verbage? smh
Vlade has learned the art of diplomatic speaking. I strongly believe he was being somewhat diplomatic in what he said about Mudiay. I think he does have serious concerns about the kid but was generous enough NOT to say them. Do not underestimate Vlade's ability in this regard. It's the same skill that just might bring Bookie and the Coach into alignment.
Vlade has learned the art of diplomatic speaking. I strongly believe he was being somewhat diplomatic in what he said about Mudiay. I think he does have serious concerns about the kid but was generous enough NOT to say them. Do not underestimate Vlade's ability in this regard. It's the same skill that just might bring Bookie and the Coach into alignment.
You really don't develop tremendously from 22-23 onward. By 25 its rarely more than just smoothing out your game. Unless Calipari has been a blithering idiot and sitting on a huge star for no reason, by this point in his career WCS is probably half a million dribbles and 100,000 skyhooks behind the offensive geniuses. Its like seeing a great athlete on the tennis court at 18, and saying they can pick up the game. Not really. They can get better, but great tennis players are made by 10s of thousands of hours put in as a kid.
Sounds tempting, but why are there quite a lot of examples coming to my mind, where players developed skills during their NBA career, that they hadn't at the start of their careers?
Even low value players like Drew Gooden can change their games in their early 30's. A guy like Meyers Leonard turned himself into a 3pt-shooter, cause he saw this as his only chance to get playing time behind Lopez. Gibson developed a very decent postgame over his career. There are actually countless of examples and you don't need to be espescially gifted to develop certain skills.
It's not like you come into the league and you either have game or you haven't. There are more factors, that make a great player.
All that WCS needs to be a decent offensive weapon next to Cousins is a solid jumpshot. And a guy this athletic with a nice stroke from outside would be a pretty special player for me.
Even low value players like Drew Gooden can change their games in their early 30's. A guy like Meyers Leonard turned himself into a 3pt-shooter, cause he saw this as his only chance to get playing time behind Lopez. Gibson developed a very decent postgame over his career. There are actually countless of examples and you don't need to be espescially gifted to develop certain skills.
It's not like you come into the league and you either have game or you haven't. There are more factors, that make a great player.
All that WCS needs to be a decent offensive weapon next to Cousins is a solid jumpshot. And a guy this athletic with a nice stroke from outside would be a pretty special player for me.
Had to watch the Vlade interview twice. Great interview. He definitely has charisma. He strikes me as having lots of common sense. When he mentioned that other teams were proposing bad deals to him I could only imagine. These other organizations were probably salivating on the phone while other members of those organizations were in the background trying hard not to giggle. I know Vlade has only been at his job for a few weeks but I think he can work out well for the Kings. If anyone can make DMC and Karl hold hands it's Vlade. Stay tuned.
You missed the point. It wasn't the choice of wording. I guess I should have said "My disappointment with the situation as revealed by the quote" but I didn't anticipate it being misread.
Anyway, there is a pretty big difference between knowing enough to be comfortable saying no, and not knowing enough to be comfortable saying yes.
I would have preferred the former (knowing enough) but for various reasons it was the latter (not knowing enough).
Anyway, there is a pretty big difference between knowing enough to be comfortable saying no, and not knowing enough to be comfortable saying yes.
I would have preferred the former (knowing enough) but for various reasons it was the latter (not knowing enough).
Actually its very much like that. You either have talent, or you don't. And if you do, the odds that you have completely unrealized it goes down exponentially for every year closer to 25 you are.
And guys can pick up certain skills, improve in certain areas, shooting predominantly. you can improve defensively too, although often as not that's just a case of you being a lazy selfish twat at lower levels, and realizing you'd better pick up your effort if you want to stick with the big boys.
But improving your 3pt shot or FT shooting isn't going to make you a star.
And guys can pick up certain skills, improve in certain areas, shooting predominantly. you can improve defensively too, although often as not that's just a case of you being a lazy selfish twat at lower levels, and realizing you'd better pick up your effort if you want to stick with the big boys.
But improving your 3pt shot or FT shooting isn't going to make you a star.
Sounds tempting, but why are there quite a lot of examples coming to my mind, where players developed skills during their NBA career, that they hadn't at the start of their careers?
Even low value players like Drew Gooden can change their games in their early 30's. A guy like Meyers Leonard turned himself into a 3pt-shooter, cause he saw this as his only chance to get playing time behind Lopez. Gibson developed a very decent postgame over his career. There are actually countless of examples and you don't need to be espescially gifted to develop certain skills.
It's not like you come into the league and you either have game or you haven't. There are more factors, that make a great player.
All that WCS needs to be a decent offensive weapon next to Cousins is a solid jumpshot. And a guy this athletic with a nice stroke from outside would be a pretty special player for me.
Even low value players like Drew Gooden can change their games in their early 30's. A guy like Meyers Leonard turned himself into a 3pt-shooter, cause he saw this as his only chance to get playing time behind Lopez. Gibson developed a very decent postgame over his career. There are actually countless of examples and you don't need to be espescially gifted to develop certain skills.
It's not like you come into the league and you either have game or you haven't. There are more factors, that make a great player.
All that WCS needs to be a decent offensive weapon next to Cousins is a solid jumpshot. And a guy this athletic with a nice stroke from outside would be a pretty special player for me.
There is a difference between being able to know enough, and needing to know enough. We needed to know enough, and Vlade says we did not. Had Mudiay come in for a workout, would we then have learned enough? I don't know. Perhaps given Mudiay's unique history, we had no way at all of getting to that threshold. But regardless, it's unfortunate that we didn't know enough about a potential star.
I dunno. A lot of the great bigs didn't pick up the game until their late teens. Cousins played football almost exclusively until age 15. Olajuwon didn't play basketball until age 17. Dirk was an early adopter at age 13, which is about five years after most current players are playing competitively. Blake Griffin developed a jump shot two years ago.
I'm not saying Cauley-Stein is any of those guys, just that you have to throw out the rules of development for big men. The 6'3" guys have so much competition, that they have to have polish and athleticism to stand out at the NCAA level and draw league interest. 7'1" guys can afford to wait because they are walking statistical anomalies who are valuable solely by dint of their genetic makeup. There are an estimated 80 men in the united states between age 20 and 40 who are 7 feet tall or taller. About 1 in 4 of those guys is on an NBA team currently. If one of those 80 also happens to be a very good athlete, you can forgive a lack of polish and just hope that the space between the ears isn't a massive liability (a la Javale.)
I'm not saying Cauley-Stein is any of those guys, just that you have to throw out the rules of development for big men. The 6'3" guys have so much competition, that they have to have polish and athleticism to stand out at the NCAA level and draw league interest. 7'1" guys can afford to wait because they are walking statistical anomalies who are valuable solely by dint of their genetic makeup. There are an estimated 80 men in the united states between age 20 and 40 who are 7 feet tall or taller. About 1 in 4 of those guys is on an NBA team currently. If one of those 80 also happens to be a very good athlete, you can forgive a lack of polish and just hope that the space between the ears isn't a massive liability (a la Javale.)