Vlade Divac defends his choice of Marvin Bagley III over Luka Doncic

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VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#33
especially after scoring 23 on 64% that game. or are we having fun again and I'm being too serious (this referring to a game thread this season where the tip was mentioned and i answered seriously with stats and was reprimanded by @Mr. S£im Citrus for not knowing time and score)
I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally find it abhorrent that anyone would bring that up.
 
#35
Well Doncic showed the amazing and horrible all in one game tonight. He scored 40 against some of the games best defenders. But he also probably gave up 50 and was repeatedly targeted by the Clips on D.
He definitely had some negatives (11 turnovers? wow!) but on the whole, he performed quite well for his first playoff game against the type of wing defenders and length the Clips have. If he can take the likes of Kawhi Leonard, Paul George and Pat Beverley off the dribble and to the hole as he did numerous times, what's he gonna be like in a couple more years? Scary!

Also, he kept the Mavs in that game largely w/o the Unicorn who got himself ejected.

Lastly, to comment on the thread title. There is no good defense for choosing MB3 over #77. There wasn't on draft night and whatever case there might have been has only grown weaker with each passing day ....

I loved Vlade as a player. But I just can't excuse or forgive him for that boneheaded decision.
 
#36
He definitely had some negatives (11 turnovers? wow!) but on the whole, he performed quite well for his first playoff game against the type of wing defenders and length the Clips have. If he can take the likes of Kawhi Leonard, Paul George and Pat Beverley off the dribble and to the hole as he did numerous times, what's he gonna be like in a couple more years? Scary!

Also, he kept the Mavs in that game largely w/o the Unicorn who got himself ejected.

Lastly, to comment on the thread title. There is no good defense for choosing MB3 over #77. There wasn't on draft night and whatever case there might have been has only grown weaker with each passing day ....

I loved Vlade as a player. But I just can't excuse or forgive him for that boneheaded decision.
I saw a star that he scored or assisted on Dallas 17 of last 19 points and you’re right he was going right by Kawhi/bev/PG. he’s so good at counter moves he not using his first move to go by you but to set up the second move.


But anyways let’s not get this thread locked
 
#38
The article mentions Vlade thought MBIII fit better with this team. Never draft for fit!! There’s no reason anyone should ever do that, outside of *maybe* a stacked contender. You are guaranteed that player for a decent number of years, and for a rebuilding team that means your new pick could easily outlast the current iteration of the rebuild.

not to mention it was immediately obvious that Bagley didn’t fit with the scheme anyways
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#39
Oh boy, it’s like Wile E. Coyote accidentally blowing himself up every time with some of you.

I mean, the thing that’s getting lost here is that Luka randomly shattering the roof of pretty much every single projection of his ceiling shouldn’t somehow reflect poorly on Marvin Bagley as a player in his own right.
Pre-draft almost every single pundit had Luka pegged as a high floor, lower-ceiling type dubbed as a better Gordon Hayward, who would come out of the draft and immediately really really help a team (true) but then eventually get overtaken by some of his more traditionally high-upside peers (for this to happen at this point, the draft class would have to churn out multiple MVP candidates which probably isn’t happening although you never know). What everyone really failed to take into account was the league’s continued push to increase the speed of play AND Luka watching tons of tape of James Harden and essentially turning into a European version of him. The Mavs to their credit immediately turned the offense over to him (largely because there is no one else on their roster capable of creating on offense besides Zinger when he’s actually engaged in the game) and he’s flourished in ways that were wholly unexpected at the time of the draft.

Meanwhile guys like Ayton, Bagley, and JJJ were getting compared to perennial all-star types and pumped up as having “unlimited potential”. Should a GM buy into the internet hype train? Probably not but I think it happens more often than the NBA would like to admit.
 
#40
Oh boy, it’s like Wile E. Coyote accidentally blowing himself up every time with some of you.

I mean, the thing that’s getting lost here is that Luka randomly shattering the roof of pretty much every single projection of his ceiling shouldn’t somehow reflect poorly on Marvin Bagley as a player in his own right.
Pre-draft almost every single pundit had Luka pegged as a high floor, lower-ceiling type dubbed as a better Gordon Hayward, who would come out of the draft and immediately really really help a team (true) but then eventually get overtaken by some of his more traditionally high-upside peers (for this to happen at this point, the draft class would have to churn out multiple MVP candidates which probably isn’t happening although you never know). What everyone really failed to take into account was the league’s continued push to increase the speed of play AND Luka watching tons of tape of James Harden and essentially turning into a European version of him. The Mavs to their credit immediately turned the offense over to him (largely because there is no one else on their roster capable of creating on offense besides Zinger when he’s actually engaged in the game) and he’s flourished in ways that were wholly unexpected at the time of the draft.

Meanwhile guys like Ayton, Bagley, and JJJ were getting compared to perennial all-star types and pumped up as having “unlimited potential”. Should a GM buy into the internet hype train? Probably not but I think it happens more often than the NBA would like to admit.
Truth...
 
#41
Oh boy, it’s like Wile E. Coyote accidentally blowing himself up every time with some of you.

I mean, the thing that’s getting lost here is that Luka randomly shattering the roof of pretty much every single projection of his ceiling shouldn’t somehow reflect poorly on Marvin Bagley as a player in his own right.
Pre-draft almost every single pundit had Luka pegged as a high floor, lower-ceiling type dubbed as a better Gordon Hayward, who would come out of the draft and immediately really really help a team (true) but then eventually get overtaken by some of his more traditionally high-upside peers (for this to happen at this point, the draft class would have to churn out multiple MVP candidates which probably isn’t happening although you never know). What everyone really failed to take into account was the league’s continued push to increase the speed of play AND Luka watching tons of tape of James Harden and essentially turning into a European version of him. The Mavs to their credit immediately turned the offense over to him (largely because there is no one else on their roster capable of creating on offense besides Zinger when he’s actually engaged in the game) and he’s flourished in ways that were wholly unexpected at the time of the draft.

Meanwhile guys like Ayton, Bagley, and JJJ were getting compared to perennial all-star types and pumped up as having “unlimited potential”. Should a GM buy into the internet hype train? Probably not but I think it happens more often than the NBA would like to admit.
As it has been said, Luka being great is one thing, but Bagley has not helped his case. Sure blame it on injuries and what not but at the end of the day you don't say "oh what a shame Greg Oden had bad knees", you say "Greg Oden is not in the league and the Blazers should have picked Durant". It's also not Tyreke's fault he got injured after his rookie year, but that hardly gets brought up and some people still call him a bust.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#42
As it has been said, Luka being great is one thing, but Bagley has not helped his case. Sure blame it on injuries and what not but at the end of the day you don't say "oh what a shame Greg Oden had bad knees", you say "Greg Oden is not in the league and the Blazers should have picked Durant". It's also not Tyreke's fault he got injured after his rookie year, but that hardly gets brought up and some people still call him a bust.
Yes but at the same time, those arguments weren’t being made two years into their respective careers (which is all probably an aspect of social media and technology breaking our perceptions of time). When the arguments is “LUKA IS AWESOME and BAGLEY IS A CHUMP” though, it feels like people are going beyond the injuries=bust paradigm and moving on to a weird getting morally offended by Marvin Bagley being on the team thing for some reason. It honestly does feel like some people out there are hoping for the worst for the guy that we did end up picking because he isn’t the guy they wanted. Once again, just my honest opinion of the course of discussion over the last two years.
 
#44
Yes but at the same time, those arguments weren’t being made two years into their respective careers (which is all probably an aspect of social media and technology breaking our perceptions of time). When the arguments is “LUKA IS AWESOME and BAGLEY IS A CHUMP” though, it feels like people are going beyond the injuries=bust paradigm and moving on to a weird getting morally offended by Marvin Bagley being on the team thing for some reason. It honestly does feel like some people out there are hoping for the worst for the guy that we did end up picking because he isn’t the guy they wanted. Once again, just my honest opinion of the course of discussion over the last two years.
There are definitely some out there who are like that. Context is also important though - we've been losing for so long and it feels like this was THE shot at finally becoming relevant again. Tyreke won ROY - that gave some hope or at the very least entertainment to fans at the time. Add an additional 10 years of not cracking 40 games/playoffs since then and it's pretty understandable how there's lots of frustration with Marvin either not being an allstar from day one or even worse not even playing while Luka, Ayton, Trae etc. have looked pretty good. It's made it worse that the FO such as Vlade have also publicly appointed Marvin as Robin to Fox's Batman - I mean it's kinda like the billboards with Cuz/Reke but then not having one of them play.

For me personally, I of course hope that he will succeed, but his lack of playing time has made it very difficult to judge what to do with him; it's a no-brainer that you keep him for now, but do you assume he's a future all star and build around him as your #2 guy? That's what worries me.
 
#45
Pre-draft almost every single pundit had Luka pegged as a high floor, lower-ceiling type dubbed as a better Gordon Hayward, who would come out of the draft and immediately really really help a team (true) but then eventually get overtaken by some of his more traditionally high-upside peers

Meanwhile guys like Ayton, Bagley, and JJJ were getting compared to perennial all-star types and pumped up as having “unlimited potential”. Should a GM buy into the internet hype train? Probably not but I think it happens more often than the NBA would like to admit.
I don't think this is quite accurate. The majority of pundits had Doncic as the best prospect and #1 overall pick. There were concerns over his athleticism but those were largely out weighed by his skill set and intangibles. I think many on the message board saw him as a Hayward type player however. I think I pegged him for a 20 7 and 7 guy with potential for more.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#46
I don't think this is quite accurate. The majority of pundits had Doncic as the best prospect and #1 overall pick. There were concerns over his athleticism but those were largely out weighed by his skill set and intangibles. I think many on the message board saw him as a Hayward type player however. I think I pegged him for a 20 7 and 7 guy with potential for more.
A lot of those #1 picks were because the Suns had hired his national team coach though. The general talk was that Ayton and Doncic were the top two players but that picks 3-5 all also had a shot at becoming the best player in their class and also superstar potential. No one beyond Doncic himself and possibly his mom had him turning into James Harden two seasons into his career.
 
#47
A lot of those #1 picks were because the Suns had hired his national team coach though. The general talk was that Ayton and Doncic were the top two players but that picks 3-5 all also had a shot at becoming the best player in their class and also superstar potential. No one beyond Doncic himself and possibly his mom had him turning into James Harden two seasons into his career.
He didn’t need to be as good as harden in year two for even people here to view him as the number 1 prospect in the draft.


I have Luka Doncic comfortably #1 because he's the only player in this draft to display potential as an elite offensive player. I.E being able to create offense for himself and others at a high level. MPJ might be a guy who can create offense for himself, but Luka has shown way more at a much higher level.
 
#48
IMO, the Bagley down-spiral started when Papa Bagley started publicly asking Dave for Marvin minutes. Dave was probably cautious of Bag's Crash like body throwing and let him settle his body first in the NBA. But nah! Papa Bagley knows better.
Divac picked a good potential with Bagley. But getting in his whole family too close to the front office, soured the milk.
I still wished Marvin could recover strong, Paul George is still balling and his injury was worse.
 
#49
Except it's not though. The people who actually watched Luka play for more than one game knew what he was and we tried to tell you. There was definitely a sizeable chunk of fans who didn't get it and had his ceiling pegged as Gordan Hayward because of cognitive bias or some inability to project a white Euroleague player as an MVP level talent but that take was wrong from the get go and a big part of the reason the Luka/Bagley feud here has taken on the stature it has is because of this cognitive bias. Even now when this guy is doing things on a basketball court that The Prodigy King James himself couldn't do at that age there are still people who feel the need to pick at his weaknesses and pretend like he's a one dimensional talent who doesn't help his team win. This is about way more than just the Kings. And I'm sure that the comparatively large number of international fans in the Kings fanbase has played a role in both perpetuating the "Is Luka Doncic really that good?" debate far beyond normal draft hindsight and elevating the tenor of the conversation into personal and emotional territory.
 
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Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#50
Except it's not though. The people who actually watched Luka play for more than one game knew what he was and we tried to tell you. There was definitely a sizeable chunk of fans who didn't get it and had his ceiling pegged as Gordan Hayward because of cognitive bias or some inability to project a white Euroleague player as an MVP level talent but that take was wrong from the get go and a big part of the reason the Luka/Bagley feud here has taken on the stature it has is because of this cognitive bias. Even now when this guy is doing things on a basketball court that The Prodigy King James himself couldn't do at that age there are still people who feel the need to pick at his weaknesses and pretend like he's a one dimensional talent who doesn't help his team win. This is about way more than just the Kings. And I'm sure that the comparatively large number of international fans in the Kings fanbase has played a role in both perpetuating the "Is Luka Doncic really that good?" debate far beyond normal draft hindsight and elevating the tenor of the conversation into personal and emotional territory.
If your argument is that posters on a message board on the internet have a better grasp of talent scouting than some NBA front offices, I’m in full agreement. If you’re insinuating some sort of conspiracy theory about European players being undervalued or something, I can’t really get on board though. I mean, Giannis is considered the best player in the NBA and he’s Greek! (Also Gordon Hayward was a max contract player on the way to being a multi-time all-star with his new team before his foot literally fell off his body on national television so I’m not sure how being compared to him is some sort of sign of disrespect). All of this is to say, once again, that I freaking wanted Luka in the draft and was upset when we passed on him.

Luka is an absolute monster on offense. No one is saying otherwise. He was always projected to be a great/borderline elite offensive playmaker. Personally, I had his ceiling capped at being a taller poor man’s James Harden, with my concern being that his lack of athleticism would wind up causing him more trouble than it actually did. Little did I know that he would actually just wind up being James Harden (Which is once again not a knock on Luka as Harden is a top three pure offensive player in the league).

For whatever it’s worth, most of the mock drafts before the real dance pretty much had Ayton, Bagley, Doncic coming off the board in that order, with the Stepien being pretty much the only reputable draft site out there that had Luka ranked as far and away their best prospect, although some of the choices came with the caveat that the Kings picking Bagley was because of them being the Kangz. Most of these mock drafters though tend to overvalue projectables and physical tools though (that’s how we wound up picking Ben McLemore).

Also it took all of one day post-the Luka thread being closed for half of the discussions on this board to wind up being about him again.
 
#51
Except it's not though. The people who actually watched Luka play for more than one game knew what he was and we tried to tell you. There was definitely a sizeable chunk of fans who didn't get it and had his ceiling pegged as Gordan Hayward because of cognitive bias or some inability to project a white Euroleague player as an MVP level talent but that take was wrong from the get go and a big part of the reason the Luka/Bagley feud here has taken on the stature it has is because of this cognitive bias. Even now when this guy is doing things on a basketball court that The Prodigy King James himself couldn't do at that age there are still people who feel the need to pick at his weaknesses and pretend like he's a one dimensional talent who doesn't help his team win. This is about way more than just the Kings. And I'm sure that the comparatively large number of international fans in the Kings fanbase has played a role in both perpetuating the "Is Luka Doncic really that good?" debate far beyond normal draft hindsight and elevating the tenor of the conversation into personal and emotional territory.
As far as the evaluation of Luka, pre-draft goes, if it was obvious that he was going to be this good, then Suns, Kings, and Atlanta would not all have passed on him. Two of those teams had direct relationships with Luka and they weren't convinced. So, I can’t get behind a European player bias when it comes to Vlade and Kokoskov or other NBA teams.

Regarding Luka's treatment post draft, he gets as much hype as any player I've ever seen at his age. With that attention comes scrutiny. Lebron had plenty of negative shots taken at him early on for lack of shooting, lacking a killer instinct, afraid to take the last shot, coach killer, etc. Comes with the territory. Regardless of how good a player is, not everyone will love him or his style.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#52
As far as the evaluation of Luka, pre-draft goes, if it was obvious that he was going to be this good, then Suns, Kings, and Atlanta would not all have passed on him. Two of those teams had direct relationships with Luka and they weren't convinced. So, I can’t get behind a European player bias when it comes to Vlade and Kokoskov or other NBA teams.

Regarding Luka's treatment post draft, he gets as much hype as any player I've ever seen at his age. With that attention comes scrutiny. Lebron had plenty of negative shots taken at him early on for lack of shooting, lacking a killer instinct, afraid to take the last shot, coach killer, etc. Comes with the territory. Regardless of how good a player is, not everyone will love him or his style.
Notorious anti-Euro Vlade, what with his random overdrafting of PapaG, acquisition of Bogi and subsequent attempts to throw max contract money at him, convincing Bjeli to stay in the NBA, and bizarre obsession with trying to find a way to get Mario Hezonja onto the roster every year.
 
#53
If your argument is that posters on a message board on the internet have a better grasp of talent scouting than some NBA front offices, I’m in full agreement. If you’re insinuating some sort of conspiracy theory about European players being undervalued or something, I can’t really get on board though. I mean, Giannis is considered the best player in the NBA and he’s Greek! (Also Gordon Hayward was a max contract player on the way to being a multi-time all-star with his new team before his foot literally fell off his body on national television so I’m not sure how being compared to him is some sort of sign of disrespect). All of this is to say, once again, that I freaking wanted Luka in the draft and was upset when we passed on him.

Luka is an absolute monster on offense. No one is saying otherwise. He was always projected to be a great/borderline elite offensive playmaker. Personally, I had his ceiling capped at being a taller poor man’s James Harden, with my concern being that his lack of athleticism would wind up causing him more trouble than it actually did. Little did I know that he would actually just wind up being James Harden (Which is once again not a knock on Luka as Harden is a top three pure offensive player in the league).

For whatever it’s worth, most of the mock drafts before the real dance pretty much had Ayton, Bagley, Doncic coming off the board in that order, with the Stepien being pretty much the only reputable draft site out there that had Luka ranked as far and away their best prospect, although some of the choices came with the caveat that the Kings picking Bagley was because of them being the Kangz. Most of these mock drafters though tend to overvalue projectables and physical tools though (that’s how we wound up picking Ben McLemore).

Also it took all of one day post-the Luka thread being closed for half of the discussions on this board to wind up being about him again.
Not really .. there were many who felt he would be too slow, not athletic enough, NBA 3...blablabla.

As for your last sentence .. well this is the thread about Vlade defending his choice of Bagley over Doncic. If there was ever a thread to talk about/revisit Bagley vs Doncic this would be it wouldn't you think?
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#54
Not really .. there were many who felt he would be too slow, not athletic enough, NBA 3...blablabla.

As for your last sentence .. well this is the thread about Vlade defending his choice of Bagley over Doncic. If there was ever a thread to talk about/revisit Bagley vs Doncic this would be it wouldn't you think?
Fair enough.

On the topic of him being a 3 though, isn’t that what he is? Defensively, he’s not guarding the other team’s lead guard out there and usually on the lesser threat of their 3/4.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
#55
As for your last sentence .. well this is the thread about Vlade defending his choice of Bagley over Doncic. If there was ever a thread to talk about/revisit Bagley vs Doncic this would be it wouldn't you think?
As far as it goes you're correct, and this thread did pre-exist the Doncic thread closure. However, I would stress that "revisit" is decidedly the wrong word here, as it would imply that the visitor had, at some point, gone elsewhere.
 
#56
Except it's not though. The people who actually watched Luka play for more than one game knew what he was and we tried to tell you. There was definitely a sizeable chunk of fans who didn't get it and had his ceiling pegged as Gordan Hayward because of cognitive bias or some inability to project a white Euroleague player as an MVP level talent but that take was wrong from the get go and a big part of the reason the Luka/Bagley feud here has taken on the stature it has is because of this cognitive bias. Even now when this guy is doing things on a basketball court that The Prodigy King James himself couldn't do at that age there are still people who feel the need to pick at his weaknesses and pretend like he's a one dimensional talent who doesn't help his team win. This is about way more than just the Kings. And I'm sure that the comparatively large number of international fans in the Kings fanbase has played a role in both perpetuating the "Is Luka Doncic really that good?" debate far beyond normal draft hindsight and elevating the tenor of the conversation into personal and emotional territory.
Man I remember waking up at 4 am to watch him that last month he played euro

.
If your argument is that posters on a message board on the internet have a better grasp of talent scouting than some NBA front offices, I’m in full agreement. If you’re insinuating some sort of conspiracy theory about European players being undervalued or something, I can’t really get on board though. I mean, Giannis is considered the best player in the NBA and he’s Greek! (Also Gordon Hayward was a max contract player on the way to being a multi-time all-star with his new team before his foot literally fell off his body on national television so I’m not sure how being compared to him is some sort of sign of disrespect). All of this is to say, once again, that I freaking wanted Luka in the draft and was upset when we passed on him.

Luka is an absolute monster on offense. No one is saying otherwise. He was always projected to be a great/borderline elite offensive playmaker. Personally, I had his ceiling capped at being a taller poor man’s James Harden, with my concern being that his lack of athleticism would wind up causing him more trouble than it actually did. Little did I know that he would actually just wind up being James Harden (Which is once again not a knock on Luka as Harden is a top three pure offensive player in the league).

For whatever it’s worth, most of the mock drafts before the real dance pretty much had Ayton, Bagley, Doncic coming off the board in that order, with the Stepien being pretty much the only reputable draft site out there that had Luka ranked as far and away their best prospect, although some of the choices came with the caveat that the Kings picking Bagley was because of them being the Kangz. Most of these mock drafters though tend to overvalue projectables and physical tools though (that’s how we wound up picking Ben McLemore).

Also it took all of one day post-the Luka thread being closed for half of the discussions on this board to wind up being about him again.
Draftexpress had Luka at 1 for 2 straight years and those two are the only sites to trust at the time. Other mocks and rankings are driven by agents and media favorings
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#58
Man I remember waking up at 4 am to watch him that last month he played euro

.

Draftexpress had Luka at 1 for 2 straight years and those two are the only sites to trust at the time. Other mocks and rankings are driven by agents and media favorings
But this isn’t really a discussion of who to trust or not. The fact of the matter is that a large amount (probably the majority) of the basketball world’s projections of Luka didn’t match up to what he has become. While he should be commended for it, it’s not like everyone out there saw Luka’s transformation coming AND getting back to the root discussion in this thread, him figuring out that NBA refs will more often than not call fouls in favor of offensive players even when they initiate the majority of the contact and deciding to jack up step back threes at a rate unseen in NBA history doesn’t make Marvin Bagley a lesser human being for some reason.
 
#59
I am really hoping that now Vlade is gone many Kings fans can stop rooting for this kid to fail. I'd be lying if I said his injury status didn't concern me but I'm far from willing to give up on this kid yet.
I don't recall fans that actually root for the guy to not be good or succeed, but given how crazy pockets of the fanbase are it wouldn't surprise me. I know a vast majority of them that just want him to be healthy, contribute and see him at least try and make some improvements to his game. I know that him coming into this year and STILL not being able to use his right hand definitely upset me quite a bit.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#60
I don't recall fans that actually root for the guy to not be good or succeed, but given how crazy pockets of the fanbase are it wouldn't surprise me. I know a vast majority of them that just want him to be healthy, contribute and see him at least try and make some improvements to his game. I know that him coming into this year and STILL not being able to use his right hand definitely upset me quite a bit.
You may not recall it, because we mods had to step in at times and clean up the mess. There weren't a lot of fans but there were a certain few that were persistent and annoying in that regard.
 
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