Use our cap space with a trade?

[Solano25]

I didn't see a thread addressing this, so I wanted to see what people thought. My understanding is that if a team is under the cap, which we presumably will be by at least 7 or 8 million depending on what the new cap is, they can make trades with uneven salaries (ie the salaries don't need to match within the 15% they normally do if both teams are over the cap). To me this seems like our most likely way of acquiring a really good player. It's essentially how the Clippers got Camby last summer for nothing. Denver just wanted to reduce salary. Now with the economy hitting so many teams this year, other teams will likely be more willing to trade quality players with bigger, long term salaries for cheaper players with less talent.

Some ideas I had:

Kenny Thomas(8.5 mil) to Milwaukee for Richard Jefferson(13.2 mil)
Not only does MIL reduce salary now, but KT expires next summer where RJ has 2 more yrs. We get an all-star for garbage, they make room for a couple of their young SFs to get more PT and save a lot of money, which they need to sign some of their FAs right now.

KT, Mikki Moore's leftover 2m, and Garcia(16.3M all together) to Phoenix for Stoudamire and Barbosa(about 23M together)
Phoenix unloads Stoudamire's contract, but gives up valuable Barbosa, but they pick up Garcia, who they need to replace an aging Grant Hill and would give them some defense. I actually would prefer to keep Cisco, but you have to give something. We get an All-star in Amare and a legit point in Barbosa.

Tell me what you think or any other ideas. Or if I am wrong on my understanding of the CBA, someone straighten me out!

 

[Kings Faithful]

I didn't see a thread addressing this, so I wanted to see what people thought. My understanding is that if a team is under the cap, which we presumably will be by at least 7 or 8 million depending on what the new cap is, they can make trades with uneven salaries (ie the salaries don't need to match within the 15% they normally do if both teams are over the cap). To me this seems like our most likely way of acquiring a really good player. It's essentially how the Clippers got Camby last summer for nothing. Denver just wanted to reduce salary. Now with the economy hitting so many teams this year, other teams will likely be more willing to trade quality players with bigger, long term salaries for cheaper players with less talent.

Some ideas I had:

Kenny Thomas(8.5 mil) to Milwaukee for Richard Jefferson(13.2 mil)
Not only does MIL reduce salary now, but KT expires next summer where RJ has 2 more yrs. We get an all-star for garbage, they make room for a couple of their young SFs to get more PT and save a lot of money, which they need to sign some of their FAs right now.

KT, Mikki Moore's leftover 2m, and Garcia(16.3M all together) to Phoenix for Stoudamire and Barbosa(about 23M together)
Phoenix unloads Stoudamire's contract, but gives up valuable Barbosa, but they pick up Garcia, who they need to replace an aging Grant Hill and would give them some defense. I actually would prefer to keep Cisco, but you have to give something. We get an All-star in Amare and a legit point in Barbosa.

Tell me what you think or any other ideas. Or if I am wrong on my understanding of the CBA, someone straighten me out!

No way in hell does that happen...

 

[kingsnation]

KT, Mikki Moore's leftover 2m, and Garcia(16.3M all together) to Phoenix for Stoudamire and Barbosa(about 23M together)
Phoenix unloads Stoudamire's contract, but gives up valuable Barbosa, but they pick up Garcia, who they need to replace an aging Grant Hill and would give them some defense. I actually would prefer to keep Cisco, but you have to give something. We get an All-star in Amare and a legit point in Barbosa.

And what exactly are we giving up to get that all-star and solid pg?

A 6th man?

 

[Solano25]

And what exactly are we giving up to get that all-star and solid pg?

A 6th man?

The biggest thing we are giving up is salary flexibility. We take on tens of millions over the next 3 years and their payroll suddenly looks much nicer. The Nuggets did it last year giving up Camby for (I think) a conditional 2nd round pick. Some teams are strapped for cash and desperately cutting salary. Another case in point was the fallen through trade of Tyson Chandler earlier this year.

We are going to have cap room and that is now as great of a commodity as good players. I think we should find a way to use it in trade since we probably won't get any all-star type players through free agency.

Phoenix missed the playoffs and know they need to change some things. Cap space is the new hot commodity and they need it more than the players they currently have.

 

[Packt]

PHO is not getting rid of Amare for junk. They'll either keep riding this broken team out till the end, or rebuild around Amare and Barbosa. Outside of those two, there is no one else left to build around.

Shaq and Nash are off the books after next season.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

KT, Mikki Moore's leftover 2m, and Garcia(16.3M all together) to Phoenix for Stoudamire and Barbosa(about 23M together)

Um, you can't do that. You can't trade the debt you owe to players you've cut.

 

[Lafayette]

I love this website, people put up these crazy trade ideas that only benefit the KINGS and think, "ITS A GREAT IDEA"

 

[AriesMar27]

i dont see why either team would make those trades and why would the kings trade for jefferson when they still have nocioni, garcia and greene? thats like 20+ million tied up at one position for the next 3 years.

 

[bajaden]

I'll get back to you guys later. Right now I'm working on a trade, sending K.T., Martin, our 7 mil in cap space and two cases of Corona to Miami for Wade.

 

[kingsnation]

The biggest thing we are giving up is salary flexibility. We take on tens of millions over the next 3 years and their payroll suddenly looks much nicer. The Nuggets did it last year giving up Camby for (I think) a conditional 2nd round pick. Some teams are strapped for cash and desperately cutting salary. Another case in point was the fallen through trade of Tyson Chandler earlier this year.

We are going to have cap room and that is now as great of a commodity as good players. I think we should find a way to use it in trade since we probably won't get any all-star type players through free agency.

Phoenix missed the playoffs and know they need to change some things. Cap space is the new hot commodity and they need it more than the players they currently have.

No, my point was we are giving up absolutely NOTHING for an all star and a solid pg.

 

[Aenadin]

no on both trades...

we should focus on getting younger and getting more skilled cheaper players than focusing on ama're and RJ..

1 amare like salary = could net us 3 garcias
1 Richard jefferson salary = could get us 1 garcia and a beno

 

[mac]

Umm dude no offense but even NBA live wouldn't accept these trades...

 

[Solano25]

Okay, I guess those trades would be much too unlikely, and I didn't know that Mikki Moore's leftover guaranteed salary was untradable (which makes perfect sense, I just saw it on the payroll). If the moderators want to close or delete the thread, that's fine, but before you do, is it really possible to do this kind of a trade and are there other similar trades that could be done that would benefit us? Are there any teams desperately looking to cut payroll a bit this summer that have players we could get like that?

 

[Kings Faithful]

Umm dude no offense but even NBA live wouldn't accept these trades...

Actually these trades would be more likely to be accepted in real life than NBA LIVE because LIVE bases their trades off of skill level and doesn't take into consideration cap space...but I get your point. Just thought I would point that out...

 

[bajaden]

Okay, I guess those trades would be much too unlikely, and I didn't know that Mikki Moore's leftover guaranteed salary was untradable (which makes perfect sense, I just saw it on the payroll). If the moderators want to close or delete the thread, that's fine, but before you do, is it really possible to do this kind of a trade and are there other similar trades that could be done that would benefit us? Are there any teams desperately looking to cut payroll a bit this summer that have players we could get like that?

Well you were on the right track. You just got a little carried away with it. We are going to be around 7 mil under the cap, depending where they set the cap and whether we do anything else between now and when we can begin making trades. For instance, if we were to decide to make a qualifing offer to Ike, which is around 3.5 mil, we would automaticly have a cap hold placed on us of close to 7 or 8 mil. Wa La, no more cap room. That probably won't happen because it doesn't make sense for us. We can give up his rights and still attempt to sign him later. Its an example though.

It is possible to combine, well, thats a bad word. Absorb is probably the right word. Anyway, we could hypotheticaly trade a player making 7 mil for a player making 14 mil because were 7 mil under the cap. So were basicly absorbing the other 7 mil. We also have a 3.2 mil trade excemption from the Williams trade, which I believe can be used in the same way. However, I believe its an either or. In other words, you can't combine the cap space with the trade excemption and make it 10.2 mil. I'm sure the Capt. will jump in here and straighten me out if I'm in error.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

It is possible to combine, well, thats a bad word. Absorb is probably the right word. Anyway, we could hypotheticaly trade a player making 7 mil for a player making 14 mil because were 7 mil under the cap. So were basicly absorbing the other 7 mil. We also have a 3.2 mil trade excemption from the Williams trade, which I believe can be used in the same way. However, I believe its an either or. In other words, you can't combine the cap space with the trade excemption and make it 10.2 mil. I'm sure the Capt. will jump in here and straighten me out if I'm in error.

I think you're right. Some of the traded player exception stuff gets pretty tricky, so I'm not 100% sure. More like 99.5%.

 

[bajaden]

I think you're right. Some of the traded player exception stuff gets pretty tricky, so I'm not 100% sure. More like 99.5%.

I'll take 99.5% from you..

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I'll take 99.5% from you..

So I spent some time looking into it, and I think this is the way it goes.

Let's assume that we have $7M in cap space and a $3M traded player exception (TPE) and that we would like to provide another team with $10M worth of cap relief.

Scenario #1: We want to trade a future second round pick ($0 trade value) for a $10M player and a future first round pick ($0 trade value). Because the $10M player would put us $3M over the cap, we would have to comply with the 125% rule. Because we are sending out $0 trade value we do not. This trade is not allowed, and the TPE doesn't enter into it.

Scenario #2: We want to trade a future second round pick for a $7M player and a $3M player and a future first round pick. We can break this up into two trades: First, we trade the second round pick for the $7M player. Since this does not put us over the cap, this trade is legal. Then we make a second trade, sending our $3M TPE for the $3M player. These two trades are both legal and result in a very similar result to scenario #1 except we take on two players instead of one.

Keep in mind that a lot of the talk surrounding this offseason for us revolves around trying to obtain picks in this draft. However, we are over the salary cap right now, and will remain over the salary cap until July 1 when the new season "begins". This is after the draft, which is late June. Draft picks don't count as salary in trades before the draft -- but we're over the cap and can't use next year's cap space to eat any salary before the draft. Once the draft is completed, draft picks count as their "slot value" in trades even if they are not yet signed. So even if we arrange a trade in advance of (or during) the draft, because we could not consummate the trade until after the draft we'd have to account for the salary of the pick(s) being traded. So things might look like this in an attempt to provide salary relief to Washington:

Assume we get the #1 (and #23) pick and a $3.2M TPE, and Washington gets the #4 pick. After we draft our two first round picks (and renounce all of our FAs), our salary cap figure moves to about $50.15M, which leaves us approximately $7.15M in cap space under the estimated cap level of $57.3M. We cannot trade for Etan Thomas (unless we trade our #23 pick), because his contract is $7.35M and would put us over the cap. However, we could trade a future second-round pick for Mike James ($6.47M) and remain under the cap. Then we could trade our TPE for the #4 pick, who would be worth $3.0M. This would take essentially $9.4M off of Washington's salary, most or all of which (depending on the tax level) would be luxury-taxed, meaning they would save on the order of $18.8M in the deal.

Washington MIGHT go for a deal like that, but rumblings make it sound as if they'd like to trade their pick for a vet (as opposed to tax relief) and make a serious run next year. But that's where we appear to stand as far as the Washington scenario goes.

 

[bajaden]

So I spent some time looking into it, and I think this is the way it goes.

Let's assume that we have $7M in cap space and a $3M traded player exception (TPE) and that we would like to provide another team with $10M worth of cap relief.

Scenario #1: We want to trade a future second round pick ($0 trade value) for a $10M player and a future first round pick ($0 trade value). Because the $10M player would put us $3M over the cap, we would have to comply with the 125% rule. Because we are sending out $0 trade value we do not. This trade is not allowed, and the TPE doesn't enter into it.

Scenario #2: We want to trade a future second round pick for a $7M player and a $3M player and a future first round pick. We can break this up into two trades: First, we trade the second round pick for the $7M player. Since this does not put us over the cap, this trade is legal. Then we make a second trade, sending our $3M TPE for the $3M player. These two trades are both legal and result in a very similar result to scenario #1 except we take on two players instead of one.

Keep in mind that a lot of the talk surrounding this offseason for us revolves around trying to obtain picks in this draft. However, we are over the salary cap right now, and will remain over the salary cap until July 1 when the new season "begins". This is after the draft, which is late June. Draft picks don't count as salary in trades before the draft -- but we're over the cap and can't use next year's cap space to eat any salary before the draft. Once the draft is completed, draft picks count as their "slot value" in trades even if they are not yet signed. So even if we arrange a trade in advance of (or during) the draft, because we could not consummate the trade until after the draft we'd have to account for the salary of the pick(s) being traded. So things might look like this in an attempt to provide salary relief to Washington:

Assume we get the #1 (and #23) pick and a $3.2M TPE, and Washington gets the #4 pick. After we draft our two first round picks (and renounce all of our FAs), our salary cap figure moves to about $50.15M, which leaves us approximately $7.15M in cap space under the estimated cap level of $57.3M. We cannot trade for Etan Thomas (unless we trade our #23 pick), because his contract is $7.35M and would put us over the cap. However, we could trade a future second-round pick for Mike James ($6.47M) and remain under the cap. Then we could trade our TPE for the #4 pick, who would be worth $3.0M. This would take essentially $9.4M off of Washington's salary, most or all of which (depending on the tax level) would be luxury-taxed, meaning they would save on the order of $18.8M in the deal.

Washington MIGHT go for a deal like that, but rumblings make it sound as if they'd like to trade their pick for a vet (as opposed to tax relief) and make a serious run next year. But that's where we appear to stand as far as the Washington scenario goes.

I'm assuming that we would have worked all of this out before the draft and Washington would have picked a player we wanted at number 4. I guess it would depend on whether there was someone we really wanted at the 4th spot.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

how about taking back a contract from washington + their high draft pick for our cap space? we have alot of assets this year compared to previous years. kenny's expiring contract, young players, capspace + draft picks.

 

[HighTopKicks]

So I spent some time looking into it, and I think this is the way it goes.

Let's assume that we have $7M in cap space and a $3M traded player exception (TPE) and that we would like to provide another team with $10M worth of cap relief.

Scenario #1: We want to trade a future second round pick ($0 trade value) for a $10M player and a future first round pick ($0 trade value). Because the $10M player would put us $3M over the cap, we would have to comply with the 125% rule. Because we are sending out $0 trade value we do not. This trade is not allowed, and the TPE doesn't enter into it.

Scenario #2: We want to trade a future second round pick for a $7M player and a $3M player and a future first round pick. We can break this up into two trades: First, we trade the second round pick for the $7M player. Since this does not put us over the cap, this trade is legal. Then we make a second trade, sending our $3M TPE for the $3M player. These two trades are both legal and result in a very similar result to scenario #1 except we take on two players instead of one.

Keep in mind that a lot of the talk surrounding this offseason for us revolves around trying to obtain picks in this draft. However, we are over the salary cap right now, and will remain over the salary cap until July 1 when the new season "begins". This is after the draft, which is late June. Draft picks don't count as salary in trades before the draft -- but we're over the cap and can't use next year's cap space to eat any salary before the draft. Once the draft is completed, draft picks count as their "slot value" in trades even if they are not yet signed. So even if we arrange a trade in advance of (or during) the draft, because we could not consummate the trade until after the draft we'd have to account for the salary of the pick(s) being traded. So things might look like this in an attempt to provide salary relief to Washington:

Assume we get the #1 (and #23) pick and a $3.2M TPE, and Washington gets the #4 pick. After we draft our two first round picks (and renounce all of our FAs), our salary cap figure moves to about $50.15M, which leaves us approximately $7.15M in cap space under the estimated cap level of $57.3M. We cannot trade for Etan Thomas (unless we trade our #23 pick), because his contract is $7.35M and would put us over the cap. However, we could trade a future second-round pick for Mike James ($6.47M) and remain under the cap. Then we could trade our TPE for the #4 pick, who would be worth $3.0M. This would take essentially $9.4M off of Washington's salary, most or all of which (depending on the tax level) would be luxury-taxed, meaning they would save on the order of $18.8M in the deal.

Washington MIGHT go for a deal like that, but rumblings make it sound as if they'd like to trade their pick for a vet (as opposed to tax relief) and make a serious run next year. But that's where we appear to stand as far as the Washington scenario goes.

Very nice explaination, Thanks.

For clarifacaton: If we traded the 23rd pick for Ethan Thomas then the trade works. Correct?

Also, does the TPE work within the 125% rule? If the Williams TPE is $3.6M and Darius Songaila's salary is $4.526M, can the Kings trade the TPE for Songaila under the 125% + $100K rule?

 

[Solano25]

Well you were on the right track. You just got a little carried away with it. We are going to be around 7 mil under the cap, depending where they set the cap and whether we do anything else between now and when we can begin making trades. For instance, if we were to decide to make a qualifing offer to Ike, which is around 3.5 mil, we would automaticly have a cap hold placed on us of close to 7 or 8 mil. Wa La, no more cap room. That probably won't happen because it doesn't make sense for us. We can give up his rights and still attempt to sign him later. Its an example though.

It is possible to combine, well, thats a bad word. Absorb is probably the right word. Anyway, we could hypotheticaly trade a player making 7 mil for a player making 14 mil because were 7 mil under the cap. So were basicly absorbing the other 7 mil. We also have a 3.2 mil trade excemption from the Williams trade, which I believe can be used in the same way. However, I believe its an either or. In other words, you can't combine the cap space with the trade excemption and make it 10.2 mil. I'm sure the Capt. will jump in here and straighten me out if I'm in error.

That's what I was thinking, even if I was getting carried away . Sorry again about that. No more Kenny Thomas for Amare posts from me- I promise! Thanks also to Capt. Factorial for the wonderfully detailed explanation. Next time I'll just ask you and save myself some embarrassment and ridicule! I thought that just putting up the idea without any examples would not be specific enough to get any response and those were a couple that came to mind, mainly because Milwaukie and Phoenix are relatively high payroll teams that expected to make the playoffs and didn't. So they might be a little more ready to "blow up the clown" and do some major trading of key players.

Kind of like how Boston pulled off those trades to get KG and Ray Allen from the T-wolves and Sonics, respectively, for much less in return because those teams weren't going anywhere soon, so why not jetison the big contracts and start over. It worked well for Boston.

BTW, I noticed that on VF21's guidelines for making trade suggestions, it says we should make sure the salaries match. Is it off limits, then, to post trade suggestions like these, even though we could actually do trades like these starting this summer?

I think that we have a much better chance at improving our roster this way than we do by signing any of the meager group of free agents available this summer. It would be interesting to speculate, no?

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Very nice explaination, Thanks.

For clarifacaton: If we traded the 23rd pick for Ethan Thomas then the trade works. Correct?

Yes (OK, I'm pretty sure but I didn't actually double check the numbers), because the salary we give up would be enough to bring us back down under the cap.

Also, does the TPE work within the 125% rule? If the Williams TPE is $3.6M and Darius Songaila's salary is $4.526M, can the Kings trade the TPE for Songaila under the 125% + $100K rule?

No. Technically the 125% rule is considered an exception, as is the TPE, and you cannot combine exceptions. So if you're trading your TPE, you can only take less or equal salary back, not more.

 

[bajaden]

BTW, I noticed that on VF21's guidelines for making trade suggestions, it says we should make sure the salaries match. Is it off limits, then, to post trade suggestions like these, even though we could actually do trades like these starting this summer?

Its not necessarily that, technicaly, the salaries match perse, but that all qualifications be met. So yes, if you propose a trade such as the one I outlined in my previous post and it works financially within the NBA players agreement, your fine. By the way, its hard to check these type's of trades on trade checker, as it doesn't seem to have trade excemptions and such built into it. Pretty simple to know if it will work though. As long as the salary your taking back on a trade excemption doesn't exceed your trade excemption and put you over the cap, it works..

 

[HighTopKicks]

Its not necessarily that, technicaly, the salaries match perse, but that all qualifications be met. So yes, if you propose a trade such as the one I outlined in my previous post and it works financially within the NBA players agreement, your fine. By the way, its hard to check these type's of trades on trade checker, as it doesn't seem to have trade excemptions and such built into it. Pretty simple to know if it will work though. As long as the salary your taking back on a trade excemption doesn't exceed your trade excemption and put you over the cap, it works..

I thought that a TPE did allow you to go over the cap, that's why it's called an exemption.

Going back to Capt. F's example about Mike James, doesn't MLE's, TPE's, and Bi-Annual exemptions have to be included in your base salary figures. So, in the example we would have to add the $3.2M TPE to the $50M. So, instead of having $7M in cap space we'd really have $4M. So, there wouldn't be enough money to trade for James' $6.5M contract.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Going back to Capt. F's example about Mike James, doesn't MLE's, TPE's, and Bi-Annual exemptions have to be included in your base salary figures. So, in the example we would have to add the $3.2M TPE to the $50M. So, instead of having $7M in cap space we'd really have $4M. So, there wouldn't be enough money to trade for James' $6.5M contract.

You're right, I flubbed on that one. The TPE is counted against the cap unless it is renounced. So we really have practically no cap space to absorb salary.

 

[bajaden]

You're right, I flubbed on that one. The TPE is counted against the cap unless it is renounced. So we really have practically no cap space to absorb salary.

By the way, I believe that we have three trade excemptions, the 3.2 mil one being the biggest. I'm not sure of the expirations dates on all of them, but I was wondering if you can treat it the same way you can the MLE and just renounce them. Thereby utilizing all your cap space.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

By the way, I believe that we have three trade excemptions, the 3.2 mil one being the biggest. I'm not sure of the expirations dates on all of them, but I was wondering if you can treat it the same way you can the MLE and just renounce them. Thereby utilizing all your cap space.

Yeah, you can renounce them.

Sheesh, we have three?

 

[HighTopKicks]

Yeah, you can renounce them.

Sheesh, we have three?

ESPN Trade Machine shows 4 : Williams $3.4M, Artest $900K, Bobby Brown $442K, & Singletary $442K

 

[bajaden]

ESPN Trade Machine shows 4 : Williams $3.4M, Artest $900K, Bobby Brown $442K, & Singletary $442K

Uhh, Oh yeah, I meant four....