Tyrese Haliburton

mac said:
To certain posters every thread is a Buddy sux thread
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This convo was bound to happen. Just happened six games in rather than mid season. And it’s really 99% Hali is flashing greatness and 1% Buddy showing his limitations.
 
kb02 said:
He played this way and had the same impact last year in college. So it’s not like dude is on some crazy hot streak. I’ve said it before, no way he falls to 12 if he did not hurt his wrist, Covid (in person scouting), and the lack of a national tourney.
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Despite that, I still don't know how he fell to us at 12. I had Haliburton & Wiseman as my top 2 for the Kings in this draft, and I was positive neither would be around past 5 (much less #12).
 
Telemachus said:
Despite that, I still don't know how he fell to us at 12. I had Haliburton & Wiseman as my top 2 for the Kings in this draft, and I was positive neither would be around past 5 (much less #12).
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I'm not complaining. At all. :)

But I think it's a classic case of:

1. Front offices out thinking themselves. See Vlade and the Luka decision.
2. The low jump shot, average athleticism, and lack of bulk. So they likely had him rated as a subpar shooter, one level at best scorer, and a passer who would mostly move the ball on the perimeter--basically a taller Cojo.
3. They underrated the brains, the shot (which is aided by the brains), his athleticism (meaning he's more athletic than what can be seen on tape), and the 6'5 height and 7 feet wingspan (he plays big--unlike Bags).
4. And like Curry and Russ, I think his athleticism is going to tick up once he's has a year or two of offseason training. Should be a consistent three level scorer by year three. Currently, his scoring, at the rim, in half court sets is a by product of opponents playing him for the pass or his jump shot. Should be able to muscle through eventually. Dude's IQ is off the charts.


Add on: I've watched a decent amount of Wolves games. Edwards athleticism is shocking at times. Dude is a next level athlete--and it's functional. He has warts, however. Is mostly a black hole right now and his vision is poor. If the Kings were picking #1, without the benefit of hindsight, I think they would pick Edwards. With hindsight, no way they do so..
 
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KingsCitizen said:
Buddy starting gives Haliburton enough wind to burst into 4th quarter just like he Bulls game. Not many folks are probably watching full games so far. But Buddy's been contributing many things that isn't on those game sheets. Check out those Denver games, where many times Jokic gets switch on Buddy and Buddy wasn't getting pushed around by the biggest man on the court. Haliburton put on that situation will get run over by Jokic.

And Buddy is a work horse bro. He together with Barnes are clocking at 35 mins per game. You put Haliburton on that Buddy minutes and start? You end up with an injured rookie in a week.
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Buddy is a work horse alright, a slow plodding Clydesdale on a floor full of Thoroughbreds.
It is a matter of time before Haliburton starts some games in front of Hield.
 
kb02 said:
I'm not complaining. At all. :)

But I think it's a classic case of:

1. Front offices out thinking themselves. See Vlade and the Luka decision.
2. The low jump shot, average athleticism, and lack of bulk. So they likely had him rated as a subpar shooter, one level at best scorer, and a passer who would mostly move the ball on the perimeter--basically a taller Cojo.
3. They underrated the brains, the shot (which is aided by the brains), his athleticism (meaning he's more athletic than what can be seen on tape), and the 6'5 height and 7 feet wingspan (he plays big--unlike Bags).
4. And like Curry and Russ, I think his athleticism is going to tick up once he's has a year or two of offseason training. Should be a consistent three level scorer by year three. Currently, his scoring, at the rim, in half court sets is a by product of opponents playing him for the pass or his jump shot. Should be able to muscle through eventually. Dude's IQ is off the charts.


Add on: I've watched a decent amount of Wolves games. Edwards athleticism is shocking at times. Dude is a next level athlete--and it's functional. He has warts, however. Is mostly a black hole right now and his vision is poor. If the Kings were picking #1, without the benefit of hindsight, I think they would pick Edwards. With hindsight, no way they do so..
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There is no questioning the athleticism of Edwards, but I would've wanted no part of him with the #1 pick. He is the ultimate boom or bust player IMO. Not only was he a black hole, but played zero defense, showed poor decision making and didn't shoot all that well. He is someone where you are betting on his athleticism and talent making him a star. I preferred Halliburton & Wiseman because their paths to success were very easy to see & much more of a "can't miss" kind of players.
 
KingsCitizen said:
And coming off the bench gives him an advantage of observing first how the opponent are running plays. This is crucial for rookies to not end up as headless chickens in the first quarter.
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Have you watched Tyrese play?
He runs the offense brilliantly, far better than any king in recent memory as matter of fact.
He has pose and timing. His assist to turnover rate is elite. He is already making the "right play," pivotal shots, and energizing team mates. He is the first person there hyping up players. One specific example was when Chavano hit the and-one in the last game. Who was there to congratulate him and help him up? I look at how he reacts with teammates, such as Bagley in the last game. That alley oop to Bags and pocket passes to Holmes got the offense going and made passing the ball contagious, so I don't see what you see. He made every facet of our offense better in the 1st quarter of the last game, so I'm going to have to disagree with you on this.
 
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Telemachus said:
There is no questioning the athleticism of Edwards, but I would've wanted no part of him with the #1 pick. He is the ultimate boom or bust player IMO. Not only was he a black hole, but played zero defense, showed poor decision making and didn't shoot all that well. He is someone where you are betting on his athleticism and talent making him a star. I preferred Halliburton & Wiseman because their paths to success were very easy to see & much more of a "can't miss" kind of players.
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I’ve seen him a few times........I came away thinking they drafted another .Andrew Wiggins......in the sense that he may not become what they want him to become and as you mentioned, black hole. Has talent for sure but I don’t know.
 
Going into the draft, you would have thought that a guard would have been the lowest "need". A SF would have been where you would be looking and someone to replace Beli might have been second, Barnes and Beli being "the old guys" and Baggy still a question mark).

I mean, you are already paying two guards big money.

Tyrese slipped to where he was a no-brainer (but I doubt that they thought he would be another cornerstone)

Would Vlade have made that pick?

I wonder if Joe Dumars had some influence on the choice. From experience, he knows that a point guard (Isiah), instant offense off the bench (Vinnie Johnson) and a combo guard (Dumars himself) could be a winning core - but in that formula, Buddy comes off the bench.

Maybe someone needs to show Buddy some game film from 30+ years ago - he still GETS his money.
 
vladtheimpaler said:
Would Vlade have made that pick?

I wonder if Joe Dumars had some influence on the choice. From experience, he knows that a point guard (Isiah), instant offense off the bench (Vinnie Johnson) and a combo guard (Dumars himself) could be a winning core - but in that formula, Buddy comes off the bench.

Maybe someone needs to show Buddy some game film from 30+ years ago - he still GETS his money.
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After reading the article in The Athletics by Sam Amick regarding the whole Bogi incident, where Joe Dumar (and Vivek?) contacted Bogi to ensure him and his position on the team just to have McNair pulling the trigger on the trade that blindsided Bogi, I'm not sure if Joe, Vivek, and McNair were all on the same page. Hopefully, the hierarchy has been established now, but it definitely didn't feel right at the time.
 
KainLear said:
After reading the article in The Athletics by Sam Amick regarding the whole Bogi incident, where Joe Dumar (and Vivek?) contacted Bogi to ensure him and his position on the team just to have McNair pulling the trigger on the trade that blindsided Bogi, I'm not sure if Joe, Vivek, and McNair were all on the same page. Hopefully, the hierarchy has been established now, but it definitely didn't feel right at the time.
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I had seen that. Hopefully Dumars involvement was prior to McNair being fully in place. When I read that I wondered if that was a cause for discrepancy between what McNair sold the fans and what Walton was giving the fans. Mixed signals on play type with Walton betting on Dumars winning in the end. Pure speculation on my part.
 
Telemachus said:
There is no questioning the athleticism of Edwards, but I would've wanted no part of him with the #1 pick. He is the ultimate boom or bust player IMO. Not only was he a black hole, but played zero defense, showed poor decision making and didn't shoot all that well. He is someone where you are betting on his athleticism and talent making him a star. I preferred Halliburton & Wiseman because their paths to success were very easy to see & much more of a "can't miss" kind of players.
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I'm pretty sure I could've been talked into picking Edwards. And this is in spite of my professed opinion that Haliburton was the only sure thing in this draft. Sure thing in terms of his floor being Doug Christie.
 
vladtheimpaler said:
Going into the draft, you would have thought that a guard would have been the lowest "need". A SF would have been where you would be looking and someone to replace Beli might have been second, Barnes and Beli being "the old guys" and Baggy still a question mark).

I mean, you are already paying two guards big money.

Tyrese slipped to where he was a no-brainer (but I doubt that they thought he would be another cornerstone)

Would Vlade have made that pick?

I wonder if Joe Dumars had some influence on the choice. From experience, he knows that a point guard (Isiah), instant offense off the bench (Vinnie Johnson) and a combo guard (Dumars himself) could be a winning core - but in that formula, Buddy comes off the bench.

Maybe someone needs to show Buddy some game film from 30+ years ago - he still GETS his money.
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And this is EXACTLY why you draft based on talent, not need. Hopefully that debate doesn't even exist before the next draft, because it sure as s**t was a hot topic before the last one. You don't pass on a greater talent to get a "better fit".
 
kb02 said:
Already is better than Buddy.
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Different roles. I am interested to see what happens when teams focus their defense on Haliburton like they do Buddy. If they do there a number of schemes they can work out to get Buddy open looks off it rather than the reverse we've seen under Walton with Buddy attempting to get looks for others.
 
SacTownKid said:
Different roles. I am interested to see what happens when teams focus their defense on Haliburton like they do Buddy. If they do there a number of schemes they can work out to get Buddy open looks off it rather than the reverse we've seen under Walton with Buddy attempting to get looks for others.
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Teams are focusing on Buddy? I haven't seen that at all.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
I don't know. Would Joe Axelson have made that pick?
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Not the young Joe Axelson.

Of course, there were more rounds in the draft but Axelson thought he had a solid guard corps going into the 1971 draft and because the then-Royals had not been good, he was putting together a team partially through good picks in the draft. The previous year, he had drafted both Sam Lacey (1st round) and Tiny Archibald (2nd round) and in 1971, the Royals had the 4th overall pick in the draft.

And Axelson blew it. With the fourth pick, he took Ken Durrett, a small forward (drafting for need). The correct pick was (the 6th pick), (Downtown) Freddie Brown, but he was a guard and Axelson did not see that as his prime position of need, already having Tiny Archibald, Matt Goukas and Norm Van Lier at guard (he traded away Flynn Robinson on draft day).

Since there were less teams and more rounds, his number two pick that year, shooting guard John Mengelt was almost the equivalent of a first rounder. Mengelt had a decent ten year career, but mostly not with the Royals/Kings. Brown went on to be the Buddy Hield of his day and could have flourished with Archibald and Goukas but Durret is unremembered.

So, no, based on his early history, Axelson would probably not have drafted Haliburton, but who knows - #12 is different than #4.
 
kb02 said:
They do that for all shooters. It's hardly implies that Buddy is number one on the opposing teams list of player to shut down. That player is Fox.
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Look at the game now, they are forcing the ball out of his hands immediately and up the court they are calling out his side. They do it to Fox too, but you're literally seeing it right now.
 
SacTownKid said:
Look at the game now, they are forcing the ball out of his hands immediately and up the court they are calling out his side. They do it to Fox too, but you're literally seeing it right now.
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I just saw a TO, because Buddy does Buddy things. That wasn't because the Raps were targeting him.
 
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