Tyreke's lack of progression

[Kingsguy881]

Kevin Durant avg'd 30 ppg 2 years ago. Now he's down to 27. PANIC!!! Fact is, Tyreke is avg'g in the top 25 for ppg this season, who woulda thunk that with a 17.3 ppg avg it'd be top 25? That's because #'s this year are down across the board for almost 80% of the league. ZzZzZz.....

 

[Bricklayer]

His overall defense is still horrible. On the Landry Fields dunk from Lin Grant and Jerry talked how Thornton needed to be up on Lin to stop the pass. Yet, the failed to mention Evans was caught again looking at the ball and Fields had an open lane all the way to the hoop. Want to score on the Kings it's easy. Whoever Evans is guarding put out on the wing or in the corner. Dribble the ball along the 3 point line and wait for the cutter as Evans just stands there looking at the ball.

Indeed, I was thinking to myself when Tyreke did not defend that one play the right way -- gee his overall defense is horrible!

Actually I wasn't, but then again Tyreke never stole my girl or pissed in my Wheaties or whatever the hell happened between you two. Tyreke's overall horrible defense oddly is somehow invisible to any known statistical measure for us. You can't find it in raw stats, where he's an upper echelon steals/block/rebound guard, or defensive +/- where we are 3pts points better on defense per 100 possessions with him, or in opponent production, where he's 3rd ont the team, or anywhere else. Its probably that high basketball IQ you always credit him with that allows him to sneakily be horrible without any evidence of it in the stats or noticed by the coaches. Perhaps you should send them a memo and out the sneaky bastard.

Now back in the real world, a place many Kings fans have unfortunately abandoned because they are just in so much pain they can't stand it and all that, what you have is a star player who learned during his rookie season not to pick up cheapie fouls that occasionally limited him. Hence you don't see him scrambling around slapping at every guy who goes by. He plays in "no man's land", osometimes known as good defensive positon, so that he can both close out with his length, or dive back and help inside. And it keeps him wihtin range to help on the boards in wayx he could not if he was stuck out at the three point line. End result is that he rarely gets lit up, and occasionally can really get into guys and disrupt them.

Now last night was not one of his better defensive games. But then again, my fatigue diagnosis plays into that. Didn't look focused early, and he was sluggish. He also leaked out on a couple of plays looking for easy hoops, something he rarely does and that I took as signs that of fatigue/laziness. It wasn't a banner game. And of course he let Landry sneak back door on him, which proves he is horrible.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Oh we'll probably realize that about the time when he's NOT young and actually HAS had good coaching for an extended period. Somehow beig a senior in college with 6 weeks under a new coach doesn't quite qualify.

Reke has improved notably under Smart, and the structure is there for more improvement still. The form on the jumper is better, now it needs reps. The understanding of how to run an offense, and being given an offense to run, is better, now it needs reps. The inconsitency is still head scratching, but that's a common thing during youth too.

People who are impatient are just foolish. Probably lousy cooks too. Sometimes you just have to let things simmer/marinade until they smooth out. Hopping up and down throwing tantrums because you can't just microwave it and get results does nothing but make somebody look like an amateur who shouldn't be in the kitchen in the first place.

Yeah, and sometimes you also have to accept that you just made a bad mix and start over.

 

[Kingsguy881]

His overall defense is still horrible. On the Landry Fields dunk from Lin Grant and Jerry talked how Thornton needed to be up on Lin to stop the pass. Yet, the failed to mention Evans was caught again looking at the ball and Fields had an open lane all the way to the hoop. Want to score on the Kings it's easy. Whoever Evans is guarding put out on the wing or in the corner. Dribble the ball along the 3 point line and wait for the cutter as Evans just stands there looking at the ball.

WHAT?!?!?!? Oh come on bro, all biases and Rubio man-crushes aside, are you serious? Really? Come on, I know you hate him and hate ON him, but that is just blatantly wrong. Come on man, subjectivity is usually your strong suit, but thats just ridiculous.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Yeah, and sometimes you also have to accept that you just made a bad mix and start over.

Only if you are a fool. You must never have cooked before. I'm not tossing out a ribeye before I try it with a dipping sauce just because the marinade didn't start out the best.

 

[Spike]

Yeah, and sometimes you also have to accept that you just made a bad mix and start over.

When you've barely measured out the ingredients?

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

When you've barely measured out the ingredients?

Shouldn't you be passed that point by year three?

 

[The_Jamal]

cooking metaphors ftw.

It's highly stupid/exhausting that there's an "anti-Tyreke" movement happening when the guy has barely scratched the surface of his potential. I for one prefer to stick out the growing pains rather than give up on him way to soon and see him dominate for the lucky team we dealt him too

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Only if you are a fool. You must never have cooked before. I'm not tossing out a ribeye before I try it with a dipping sauce just because the marinade didn't start out the best.

What about after you've tried dipping sauce and a dozen other cover ups? At what point do you accept that you just have a bad steak on your hands?

 

[The_Jamal]

Shouldn't you be passed that point by year three?

In Tyreke's case, no!

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

cooking metaphors ftw.

It's highly stupid/exhausting that there's an "anti-Tyreke" movement happening when the guy has barely scratched the surface of his potential. I for one prefer to stick out the growing pains rather than give up on him way to soon and see him dominate for the lucky team we dealt him too

Potential never won anything, ever. You can only wait on potential to blossom so long. Basketball history is filled with players who had loads of potential that never fulfilled it.

 

[Bricklayer]

Potential never won anything, ever. You can only wait on potential to blossom so long. Basketball history is filled with players who had loads of potential that never fulfilled it.

And yet every single great player was once upon a time just a young one wiht potential. Only a fool gives up on it until they know for sure what they have. The cutoff poit for that BTW is somwwhere around 25. By that time players generally are what they will be. Up until that time improvement is the norm.

 

[Kingsguy881]

What about after you've tried dipping sauce and a dozen other cover ups? At what point do you accept that you just have a bad steak on your hands?

You were the guy who clamored to get rid of Gerald Wallace, weren't ya?

 

[Glenn]

Even an average wine maker can tell which young wine will eventually mature to a great one.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

You were the guy who clamored to get rid of Gerald Wallace, weren't ya?

No. I was the guy who said it was a dumb move. I hardly see the point though. Are you REALLY saying that the situations are even remotely similar?

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

And yet every single great player was once upon a time just a young one wiht potential. Only a fool gives up on it until they know for sure what they have. The cutoff poit for that BTW is somwwhere around 25. By that time players generally are what they will be. Up until that time improvement is the norm.

I'm not suggesting giving up. I'm suggesting a revaluation. I think we're very close to the point where it's safe to say that he isn't the untouchable franchise cornerstone we hoped he would be.

 

[Kingsguy881]

No. I was the guy who said it was a dumb move. I hardly see the point though. Are you REALLY saying that the situations are even remotely similar?

I'm saying that to call Gerald Wallace out at having reached his peak in the beginning of his 3rd season is stupid, yes.

Sure, hindsight is 20/20 and NOW you are saying it is dumb move. What would you have been saying in the beginning of his 3rd year when he was yet to be consistent or show a jumper or...hey, you should be a GM. You know everything. Have a peak at G-Dubs career stats log bud:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3533/career;_ylt=AkNTalrpqH2dMXv3VNr4XsydPKB4

You woulda dumped him by year 5, at the VERY latest. Impatience is your real major issue. That and lack of being able to tell talent. Why people waste their time trying to correct you is beyond me. I'm done with you. Have fun living in ignorant bliss homie.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

I'm saying that to call Gerald Wallace out at having reached his peak in the beginning of his 3rd season is stupid, yes.

Sure, hindsight is 20/20 and NOW you are saying it is dumb move. What would you have been saying in the beginning of his 3rd year when he was yet to be consistent or show a jumper or...hey, you should be a GM. You know everything. Have a peak at G-Dubs career stats log bud:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3533/career;_ylt=AkNTalrpqH2dMXv3VNr4XsydPKB4

You woulda dumped him by year 5, at the VERY latest. Impatience is your real major issue. That and lack of being able to tell talent. Why people waste their time trying to correct you is beyond me. I'm done with you. Have fun living in ignorant bliss homie.

Lack of reading comprehension is your problem. I've NEVER doubted or questioned Tyreke's talent. NEVER. So spare me the I don't know talent nonsense. Your Tyreke/Wallace comparison is still absurd for several reasons. A, we hadn't seen nearly as much of Wallace at the time as we have of Tyreke. B, we got literally nothing for Wallace, just let him walk unnecessarily in an expansion draft. And FYI, I said THAT was a dumb move at the time, too.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Lack of reading comprehension is your problem. I've NEVER doubted or questioned Tyreke's talent. NEVER. So spare me the I don't know talent nonsense. Your Tyreke/Wallace comparison is still absurd for several reasons. A, we hadn't seen nearly as much of Wallace at the time as we have of Tyreke. B, we got literally nothing for Wallace, just let him walk unnecessarily in an expansion draft. And FYI, I said THAT was a dumb move at the time, too.

Yeah, my reading comprehension is on point, your lack of drawing parralels obviously isn't. And fwiw my Tyreke Wallace comparison is working on a lot of levels because Wallace was extremely raw with no jumpshot and only one thing he was good at in regards to scoring, yet with the potential to be an all around stud. Sound familiar? And yes, at this point you are obviously ready to dump Tyreke for peanuts because you claim he has peaked at 22 years old in the beginning of his 3rd season with a lame duck coach as his 'teacher' for the last 2 years. You honestly think under Popovich he wouldn't be a much better player than he is at this point? So coaching would have NOTHING to do with his lack of progression, right? 'Here's the ball, go do your thing, I'm not teaching you anything, it's on you' is supposed to have him improving? Smh, man, if ignorance is bliss, you must be in heaven.

 

[cuad]

I think that it's because he's being played out of position. Too many of our players are IMO.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Yeah, my reading comprehension is on point, your lack of drawing parralels obviously isn't. And fwiw my Tyreke Wallace comparison is working on a lot of levels because Wallace was extremely raw with no jumpshot and only one thing he was good at in regards to scoring, yet with the potential to be an all around stud. Sound familiar? And yes, at this point you are obviously ready to dump Tyreke for peanuts because you claim he has peaked at 22 years old in the beginning of his 3rd season with a lame duck coach as his 'teacher' for the last 2 years. You honestly think under Popovich he wouldn't be a much better player than he is at this point? So coaching would have NOTHING to do with his lack of progression, right? 'Here's the ball, go do your thing, I'm not teaching you anything, it's on you' is supposed to have him improving? Smh, man, if ignorance is bliss, you must be in heaven.

More nonsense. I never said anything about dumping him for peanuts. I've suggested getting a good player for him while his value is still reasonably high. Your comparison is futile because I never suggested giving tyreke away or trading him for nothing. I also never said it wouldn't be without risk, as any trade is. i'm sick and tired of people like you transforming my valid points and arguments into nonsense via straw man tactics/stupidity. If you can't debate me based on what i actually said rather than on what you THINK I said or what you MADE UP, then do us both a favor and just don't respond to my posts.

 

[Section 101]

Only if you are a fool. You must never have cooked before. I'm not tossing out a ribeye before I try it with a dipping sauce just because the marinade didn't start out the best.

Nope, while Brick likes to post the so called stats that say he is a better defender he doesn't pass the eyeball test. In the Denver game last month Brewer got at least 4 layups on the same exact play I described. When ever a wing gets a dunk first thing I look for is if it was Evans man. Most of the time it is.

The problem with watching games on TV is the camera follows the ball. Unless your constantly going back to watch replays you are missing a lot of what is happening on the court. Even then the camera may not get part of the play especially on the sides.

Now he has gotten a lot better at getting around picks since Smart took over especially the high pick and roll. He is good at on the ball and has strength in the post. But off the ball and transition (going for steals all the time) he is horrible.

Let me ask you a question. When was the last time you saw him take a charge or even attempt to take one? I bet the number you can count is on one hand for his career. In the Chicago game he had the chance to stop and set his feet on a break with I think Lucas driving. He just kept backing up and tried for the steal instead.

 

[Section 101]

Oh we'll probably realize that about the time when he's NOT young and actually HAS had good coaching for an extended period. Somehow beig a senior in college with 6 weeks under a new coach doesn't quite qualify.

Reke has improved notably under Smart, and the structure is there for more improvement still. The form on the jumper is better, now it needs reps. The understanding of how to run an offense, and being given an offense to run, is better, now it needs reps. The inconsitency is still head scratching, but that's a common thing during youth too.

People who are impatient are just foolish. Probably lousy cooks too. Sometimes you just have to let things simmer/marinade until they smooth out. Hopping up and down throwing tantrums because you can't just microwave it and get results does nothing but make somebody look like an amateur who shouldn't be in the kitchen in the first place.

Oh, I 100% agree with this. And I've said from the start Westfail is the biggest reason for giving Evans free reign his rookie year. The 20-5-5 thing did way more damage than good.

 

[The_Jamal]

Potential never won anything, ever. You can only wait on potential to blossom so long. Basketball history is filled with players who had loads of potential that never fulfilled it.

I agree. The difference is Tyreke has actually shown he can be a star in this league and you suck up the growing pains until he figures it all out. Now, guys like Millic, Thabeet, Flynn, Kwame are all different cases. They were never able to show that they belong in the NBA, thus why their teams gave up on them so early. You seem to hate the age excuse, but it's a perfectly viable one! Tyreke is still a young player in this league and has plenty of time to become the star we hope and expect him to be and dumping him after he finally has gotten a good coach and a little bit of help (Thornton+Boogie) would be a huge mistake that we would regret down the line.

 

[Section 101]

Yeah, my reading comprehension is on point, your lack of drawing parralels obviously isn't. And fwiw my Tyreke Wallace comparison is working on a lot of levels because Wallace was extremely raw with no jumpshot and only one thing he was good at in regards to scoring, yet with the potential to be an all around stud. Sound familiar? And yes, at this point you are obviously ready to dump Tyreke for peanuts because you claim he has peaked at 22 years old in the beginning of his 3rd season with a lame duck coach as his 'teacher' for the last 2 years. You honestly think under Popovich he wouldn't be a much better player than he is at this point? So coaching would have NOTHING to do with his lack of progression, right? 'Here's the ball, go do your thing, I'm not teaching you anything, it's on you' is supposed to have him improving? Smh, man, if ignorance is bliss, you must be in heaven.

I agree. The problem is his fading jump shot has been ingrained for probably 7+ years. It's going to take a long time to correct if it ever does. The bigger issue is if this is what he has been working on correcting then it hasn't been working the past 2 years. He needs something more drastic.

 

[Arkitect]

Nope, while Brick likes to post the so called stats that say he is a better defender he doesn't pass the eyeball test. In the Denver game last month Brewer got at least 4 layups on the same exact play I described. When ever a wing gets a dunk first thing I look for is if it was Evans man. Most of the time it is.

The problem with watching games on TV is the camera follows the ball. Unless your constantly going back to watch replays you are missing a lot of what is happening on the court. Even then the camera may not get part of the play especially on the sides.

Now he has gotten a lot better at getting around picks since Smart took over especially the high pick and roll. He is good at on the ball and has strength in the post. But off the ball and transition (going for steals all the time) he is horrible.

Let me ask you a question. When was the last time you saw him take a charge or even attempt to take one? I bet the number you can count is on one hand for his career. In the Chicago game he had the chance to stop and set his feet on a break with I think Lucas driving. He just kept backing up and tried for the steal instead.

The taking a charge argument is absurd. Evans took 8 offensive fouls last year. 5 less than Kobe and the same number as Tony Allen, both of whom were NBA All-defensive guards last year. Evans takes charges at the same rate as every other good guard defender in the league. Of course you are probably just going to ignore my so called stats.

 

[Kingsguy881]

I agree. The problem is his fading jump shot has been ingrained for probably 7+ years. It's going to take a long time to correct if it ever does. The bigger issue is if this is what he has been working on correcting then it hasn't been working the past 2 years. He needs something more drastic.

Smart says he has been working with him on it. Westphal never said anything of the sort. There is a big discrepancy between these two coaches. I am not impatient, I'm willing to give Smart next year with a training camp under his belt to see what kind of progression Reke makes. Smart obviously has it in Rekes mind that the team will go as far as he takes them, I wanna see how Reke responds to that.

 

[Glenn]

If you have a natural instinct for something, do it. If you don't have a natural instinct, don't do it but try to add it to your game. Evans is not Cousins nor is Cousins like Evans. I can't prove this but I feel fairly confident that the ability to do ANY skill in ANY sport is genetic to some point. It's a strength or a weakness to be made up for with another strength. You just hope that the strengths outway the weaknesses.

This topic of whether Tyreke takes charges or not is a very narrow topic in discussing a player's defensive ability and seems a bit odd.

 

[Bricklayer]

If you have a natural instinct for something, do it. If you don't have a natural instinct, don't do it but try to add it to your game. Evans is not Cousins nor is Cousins like Evans. I can't prove this but I feel fairly confident that the ability to do ANY skill in ANY sport is genetic to some point. It's a strength or a weakness to be made up for with another strength. You just hope that the strengths outway the weaknesses.

This topic of whether Tyreke takes charges or not is a very narrow topic in discussing a player's defensive ability and seems a bit odd.

Frankly taking charges is often a sign that a guy CAN'T defend. Its a give up play. If you have size, and length, and good hands you want to make a play on the ball if you can. If you don't have those things you put your hands down and try to take a charge, but as soon as you commit to that you stop playing defense and depend on the refs. You can't play the ball. You can't move much. Most top defenders rarely resort to it.

 

[Glenn]

Oh, I think Cuz is unique and the charge drawing rises to the level of a skill. I understand your point though. That's why I thought focusing on this particular attribute was an odd subject to be discussing.