Tyreke The Double Team And Success

[sactownfan]

Wow!

The point was made that last year there wasn't a single player on this team that called for a double team by the opponents we played. With a team like the one we're assembling(full of shooters that cant create their own shots). Having at least one player that REQUIRES a double team is a MUST!

Honestly Salmons was the closest we had all last year, and while hes good. Hes not by any means special, teams would just play him man to man, and just swarm him when he drove into the paint. Then like Artest before him, they are both freak'n mental and refused to pass to open teammates. Thus not taking advantage of the help defense.

NOW...

the reason I feel like Evans is a sure fire All-Star on the NBA level is his size ALONG with his obvious skill set. He will be such a mismatch at the PG position that it will be almost too easy for Evans to operate.

Sure a team could put a SF or SG on him but that just means that Kevin Martin and company will be raining 3's over a 6ft defender all game long. Pretty easy for Evans to just give the ball to the even bigger mismatch.

the other option for opponents would be to double team Evans, and God willing!, all he'll have to do is find one of the open jump shooters on this team, make a easy/standard pass and BANG!

Rubio vs Evans...

There is a reason that Petrie and friends were gushing about Evans after the draft, and thats the reason why... Honestly I think Evans was Petrie's guy all along(in fact I think he'd struggle with taking Griffen over Evans)A lot of people here thought we needed a PG that would make amazing passes and have amazing court vision. But what we really needed was a player that could draw a double team to free up others for better looks... (Rubio was never gonna be double teamed!!! also keep in mind that during the olympics he had Pau and Marc Gasol, Rudy Fernández, and Víctor Claver giving him a lot of freedom)

which means that all Evans needs to do. Is play the same game he's played his whole life. The only difference is that now, for the first time he is surrounded by some of the best shooters in the world and he doesn't need to do everything himself. Passing to the open teammates and adding range on his shot is all Evans will have to do or work on at the next level, and all signs point to him being able to do it.

 

[DerekJ]

Can't argue with anything you said. Great post.

 

[FromIsrael]

well i think your right,
i cant wait till the summer league gonna show us some of evans and casspi.

 

[Vlade4GM]

You may be right that Evans' skillset may help us the most now, but unless he improves his decision making and ability to create for others, I don't know if he's someone you can really win a championship with as the focal point of the offense. At least with Ricky you have a guy know you can make good decisions, create for others, and lead a team-oriented offense.

 

[Jespher]

You may be right that Evans' skillset may help us the most now, but unless he improves his decision making and ability to create for others, I don't know if he's someone you can really win a championship with as the focal point of the offense. At least with Ricky you have a guy know you can make good decisions, create for others, and lead a team-oriented offense.

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32393

 

[kennadog]

You may be right that Evans' skillset may help us the most now, but unless he improves his decision making and ability to create for others, I don't know if he's someone you can really win a championship with as the focal point of the offense. At least with Ricky you have a guy know you can make good decisions, create for others, and lead a team-oriented offense.

I don't think Rubio would be someone we could win a championship with either. Neither one of these guys can do that alone. We're re-building and still a ways away from being contenders. Who knows what that team is going to look like and who will be the starters. Right now we don't even know what the team will look like on opening day of the 09-10 season.

 

[sactownfan]

You at least know with Ricky you have a guy who can make good decisions, create for others, and lead a team-oriented offense.

eh? Do we know that for sure yet... for all we know he could come over here and get ball'd up by everyone... we know one thing for sure and that Evans is twice the athlete Rubio is, and If Rubio isn't on an all-star national team then his game looks pretty pedestrian other than a few flashy passes.

 

[swisshh]

So 6 out of the 8 previous champions had a real point guard, and four or five of those were all star level point guards. I think Vlade's point stands.

Also, Steve Nash isn't normally double teamed. But watch some Suns playoffs tapes again. Steve Nash is drawing the attention of all five defenders on the floor, as he moves, so do they. He sifts through a tough Spurs defense in the playoffs, until someone on the defense goofs and he exploits it.

As for the double team PG offense, which we've seen with a Baron Davis or Kidd, Evans needs to be a good passer and be looking for that first. On top of that, I am betting people will leave the shorter guy on Martin. Now Martin can be bothered on the wing, but he can shoot over shorter guys on the run. If they just have Martin sit outside with a smaller guy on him, it won't work as well for the Kings. If he gets the ball from there and tries to put it ont he floor, a small guy can poke it away. You want Martin taking the ball on the move and shooting over the shorter guy on those free throw line fades.

Second, this may involve Evans working in the paint area and that involves removing our bigs from the paint. Since Hawes seems to like the jumper, that may work. You do want JT on the inside though. At a certain point, the lane may become clogged with Evans working the double team, Martin needing a lane to drive and JT needing room to work.

 

[Vlade4GM]

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32393

That's a list of PG's, not necessarily a list of primary ball handlers. And I'm talking about decision making here first and foremost, not assists.

 

[Vlade4GM]

eh? Do we know that for sure yet... for all we know he could come over here and get ball'd up by everyone... we know one thing for sure and that Evans is twice the athlete Rubio is, and If Rubio isn't on an all-star national team then his game looks pretty pedestrian other than a few flashy passes.

Yes, to a respectable degree I think you can be fairly sure he can do the things I've mentioned. His decision making ability and just PG intangibles are off the charts, especially for his age. Finding teammates and making quality decisions with the ball are qualities you know Rubio brings, you don't know with Evans.

How often have you seen him play outside of the national team?

 

[IDidntDoDat]

I completely agree with the OP, so I'll contribute to this thread by tuning everyone to channel 10 News:

 

[bajaden]

You may be right that Evans' skillset may help us the most now, but unless he improves his decision making and ability to create for others, I don't know if he's someone you can really win a championship with as the focal point of the offense. At least with Ricky you have a guy know you can make good decisions, create for others, and lead a team-oriented offense.

Its way too early to tell. I think he's a great pick, but we can't get carried away either. I'm as excited as everyone at the prospect of how good he might become, but we have to keep our expectations realistic. The way some people around here are, if he doesn't average a triple double every night, they'll be running him out of town.

 

[bajaden]

I completely agree with the OP, so I'll contribute to this thread by tuning everyone to channel 10 News:

Reminds me a little bit of Gary's cat..

 

[dbfish]

wow!

The Point Was Made That Last Year There Wasn't A Single Player On This Team That Called For A Double Team By The Opponents We Played. with A Team Like The One We're Assembling(full Of Shooters That Cant Create Their Own Shots). having At Least One Player That Requires A Double Team Is A Must!

Honestly Salmons Was The Closest We Had All Last Year, And While Hes Good. Hes Not By Any Means Special, Teams Would Just Play Him Man To Man, And Just Swarm Him When He Drove Into The Paint. Then Like Artest Before Him, They Are Both Freak'n Mental And Refused To Pass To Open Teammates. Thus Not Taking Advantage Of The Help Defense.

now...

The Reason I Feel Like Evans Is A Sure Fire All-star On The Nba Level Is His Size Along With His Obvious Skill Set. He Will Be Such A Mismatch At The Pg Position That It Will Be Almost Too Easy For Evans To Operate.

Sure A Team Could Put A Sf Or Sg On Him But That Just Means That Kevin Martin And Company Will Be Raining 3's Over A 6ft Defender All Game Long. Pretty Easy For Evans To Just Give The Ball To The Even Bigger Mismatch.

The Other Option For Opponents Would Be To Double Team Evans, And God Willing!, All He'll Have To Do Is Find One Of The Open Jump Shooters On This Team, make A Easy/standard Pass And Bang!

rubio Vs Evans...

There Is A Reason That Petrie And Friends Were Gushing About Evans After The Draft, And Thats The Reason Why... Honestly I Think Evans Was Petrie's Guy All Along(in Fact I Think He'd Struggle With Taking Griffen Over Evans)a Lot Of People Here Thought We Needed A Pg That Would Make Amazing Passes And Have Amazing Court Vision. But What We Really Needed Was A Player That Could Draw A Double Team To Free Up Others For Better Looks... (rubio Was Never Gonna Be Double Teamed!!! Also Keep In Mind That During The Olympics He Had Pau And Marc Gasol, Rudy Fernández, And Víctor Claver Giving Him A Lot Of Freedom)

Which Means That All Evans Needs To Do. Is Play The Same Game He's Played His Whole Life. The Only Difference Is That Now, For The First Time He Is Surrounded By Some Of The Best Shooters In The World And He Doesn't Need To Do Everything Himself. Passing To The Open Teammates And Adding Range On His Shot Is All Evans Will Have To Do Or Work On At The Next Level, And All Signs Point To Him Being Able To Do It.

Ditto!

 

[ElRey]

Sactown, that is an excellent post and I agree with you on all your points. One of the biggest reasons why I favored Evans over Rubio coming into the draft is that Evans looks like he can do well and elevate any team - good or bad - versus Rubio who even if he becomes a great passer is going to need to be on a very good team to do well. Put Rubio on a team with a bunch of scrubs and he ain't doing squat bc there's no one to pass to, whereas Evans can still take matters in his own hands and carry the team. Rubio is not going to carry a team, he needs his teammates, like he said after his workout with the Kings.

You guys want to guess which category team (good versus bad) I think the Kings are in??

 

[bozzwell]

Couple years ago, when this forum was burning in flame wars between Pedja and Webber bashers (yes, bashers) I suggested that we adopt a modified Goodwin's Law:

First poster who resorts to downplaying one players ability or outright bashes one player in order to build a case for the player that he/she favors loses the argument.

I still like that rule. I am really warming up to Tyreke, I always thought he's going to be a good NBA pro in the worst case scenario and has potential to be a special player. Does not mean that I cannot appreciate (call it "pine for" if you must) Rubio's potential. I'd love to see Rubio (or someone like him) hit dimes to JT and Spencer. JT and Spencer are my core, figuring out whether they are potentially elite core (by giving them pure, pass first, pass second and pass last PG) was more important to me then picking the best player. None of that (for me at least) takes away from who Evans is and how good he can be (to the contrary, Tyreke looks like someone who will be more likable on many levels).

Secondly, any player, drafted, traded for or dragged in from the street is "my guy" once he puts a Kings uni on. That entitles him to my support and a good measure of patience. Everything else has to be earned. Don't care whether that player is Evans, Rubio or LeBron. Adulation, superlatives and unreserved loyalty will come with a body of work that derves it. Like Webber's or Vlade's.

P.S. I don;t really know whether this post is altogether pertinent to the OP, but it seemed like as good place as any to throw out my $.02 on the subject.

 

[sactownfan]

Its way too early to tell. I think he's a great pick, but we can't get carried away either. I'm as excited as everyone at the prospect of how good he might become, but we have to keep our expectations realistic. The way some people around here are, if he doesn't average a triple double every night, they'll be running him out of town.

totally agree, but its all about taking steps forward and Evans addition is in the right direction... As to be expected as a rookie he will be prone to making mistakes, turnovers, bad shots, bad passes, hes gonna do all that stuff. The jump from college to the worlds best NBA is not an easy one...

but...

I expect Evans to weather the storm and adjust to the game speed, etc.
Evans isn't a miracle man this team still has too many flaws and not enough talent or depth. But Evans has the potential to be the rookie of the year.

down the line I think Evans could be the 1st or 2nd option on this team.
along with Martin whos a solid 3rd/ Odom option... we could be only the addition of one more star away from being a contender again...

Evans has to get to that level 1st off (could be a few years away). We gotta keep Martin 2nd, and finding that other 1st or 2nd option is gonna take awhile...

easier said than done

 

[rainmaker]

I am excited to see how this offense works with a healthy kmart cutting off the ball with tyreke commanding double teams. Having someone on this team command double teams, and be a willing passer, will really open things up for kevin. Or, the defense doesn't double tyreke and he abuses other smaller pg's repeatedly in the post. Definate potential this team hasn't had in a while.

 

[BritishColumbia]

eh? Do we know that for sure yet... for all we know he could come over here and get ball'd up by everyone... we know one thing for sure and that Evans is twice the athlete Rubio is, and If Rubio isn't on an all-star national team then his game looks pretty pedestrian other than a few flashy passes.

We took Evans and he is our guy now ... but let's not get ridiculous. Rubio is a true, rare talent and people do not have to be Einsteins to see that.

 

[Grawlix]

I think most people here can remember how effective Bonzi and Artest were in that playoff series against San Antonio a few years ago. They were so successful because of their size, strength and physical toughness.

Tyreke has all of the above plus adequate speed and ball handling to go with it. Think about this, Evans is almost 220 pounds. That is like getting hit by a wrecking ball for the opposing PG. The closest PG's to that size are Kidd at 210 and Deron Williams at 208.

If he shows he can pass the rock with that body, he will be VERY difficult to defend, even if his passing is mediocre for a PG. Sactown is right on this one.

 

[sactownfan]

We took Evans and he is our guy now ... but let's not get ridiculous. Rubio is a true, rare talent and people do not have to be Einsteins to see that.

But the facts are that most people know Evans is better right now... The thing about Rubio is his age, and that his ceiling could be way up there... but what he can do at the moment is pedestrian in comparison to Evans... yes i think his court vision and passing is better, but everybody knows he needs a ton of work and growth. most people are saying 5 years.

Evans will get better too over time. who knows maybe his court vision and passing get to a top notch level someday.

 

[Telemachus]

But the facts are that most people know Evans is better right now... The thing about Rubio is his age, and that his ceiling could be way up there... but what he can do at the moment is pedestrian in comparison to Evans... yes i think his court vision and passing is better, but everybody knows he needs a ton of work and growth. most people are saying 5 years.

Evans will get better too over time. who knows maybe his court vision and passing get to a top notch level someday.

Don't forget that Evens is only 19. So his room for improvement could be just as big as that of Rubio. Only time will tell.

 

[BritishColumbia]

But the facts are that most people know Evans is better right now... The thing about Rubio is his age, and that his ceiling could be way up there... but what he can do at the moment is pedestrian in comparison to Evans... yes i think his court vision and passing is better, but everybody knows he needs a ton of work and growth. most people are saying 5 years.

Evans will get better too over time. who knows maybe his court vision and passing get to a top notch level someday.

I am not saying that Evans is a bad prospect. I was (and am) absolutely Ok with this choice. What I am saying is that bashing Rubio is becoming very popular. Especially those two carrots - Napear and Lamb. The deal is done!! We have Evans and are hoping that he will be the best player in NBA. There is no need to crusify Ricky every time and make him someone he is not. I guess soon we will be reading/hearing that he's never played basketball at all or has only one hand.

 

[Telemachus]

I am not saying that Evans is a bad prospect. I was (and am) absolutely Ok with this choice. What I am saying is that bashing Rubio is becoming very popular. Especially those two carrots - Napear and Lamb.

I am not in favor of bashing any player without just cause. However, both Lamb and Napier were not very high on Rubio before the draft. I haven't heard them "bash" so much has just point out his weaknesses and the time it will take for him to be an impact player (well, maybe Lamb has some).

 

[Entity]

I am not saying that Evans is a bad prospect. I was (and am) absolutely Ok with this choice. What I am saying is that bashing Rubio is becoming very popular. Especially those two carrots - Napear and Lamb. The deal is done!! We have Evans and are hoping that he will be the best player in NBA. There is no need to crusify Ricky every time and make him someone he is not. I guess soon we will be reading/hearing that he's never played basketball at all or has only one hand.

Napear hasn't like Rubio from the get go.

 

[ElRey]

I am not saying that Evans is a bad prospect. I was (and am) absolutely Ok with this choice. What I am saying is that bashing Rubio is becoming very popular. Especially those two carrots - Napear and Lamb. The deal is done!! We have Evans and are hoping that he will be the best player in NBA. There is no need to crusify Ricky every time and make him someone he is not. I guess soon we will be reading/hearing that he's never played basketball at all or has only one hand.

I don't even really want to talk about Rubio...except some people keep bringing him up EVERYTIME we talk about Evans, and how we could ever pass over this once-in-a-lifetime pure PG sensation who could pass like Magic, shoot like Bird, and dunk like Jordan.

 

[Aenadin]

Napear hasn't like Rubio from the get go.

and thats coming from a guy who loved brad miller

 

[BritishColumbia]

I bet that they've never seen him play in ACB or even in Euroleague.

 

[Seanathon81]

We took Evans and he is our guy now ... but let's not get ridiculous. Rubio is a true, rare talent and people do not have to be Einsteins to see that.

I don't consider myself to be a genius like Einstein but I have to disagree with you on "rare" talent on this one. Nor do I consider Tyreke to be a player who would comes around less than Haley's comet. Look I honestly feel like i'm taking crazy pills reading this forum since the draft. We did not pass up on Jordan people. Look I understand his skill set better fit the Kings that we loved to watch back in the glory years of Webber and Divacs. But beautiful full court passes gracefully wisking between defenders heads or between their legs looks good during the regular season but when shut down defence during a 7 game series takes place. Those opportunities come few and far between.

Imagine it's game 7 WCF again and fast breaks are at a minimum. The defence is doing everything in it's power legal and illegal to stop anyone from cutting down the lane in the half court sets. We're talking grabbing jerseys, pushing, bodying anyone up who has the audacity to think they can get to the rack. Due to familiarity both teams defences are able to take 1st, 2nd, 3rd options away. Pick and rolls are being jumped so ballhandlers need to create opportunites by breakings down their own man to draw doubles. Thats a tough situation that calls for tough players. Toughness that allow real stars to earn those big contracts they get. Who do you think is going to be more effective in that setting? Rubio or Evans? I'm not saying Rubio would fail miserably in said situation and Evans is made for it. But I think given those circumstances the kings saw the toughness, physical attributes necessary to get the job done in Evans and regretfully didn't see it in Rubio. Regretfully to me only because i'd love to see us all overjoyed about the kings pick and looking forward to next season.

 

[bozzwell]

I don't consider myself to be a genius like Einstein but I have to disagree with you on "rare" talent on this one. Nor do I consider Tyreke to be a player who would comes around less than Haley's comet. Look I honestly feel like i'm taking crazy pills reading this forum since the draft. We did not pass up on Jordan people. Look I understand his skill set better fit the Kings that we loved to watch back in the glory years of Webber and Divacs. But beautiful full court passes gracefully wisking between defenders heads or between their legs looks good during the regular season but when shut down defence during a 7 game series takes place. Those opportunities come few and far between.

Interesting to see you'd think that. I'd think you draft Rubio as a departure from Princeton and in hope to have more traditional offense, with your little guys getting the ball to your big guys not the other way around. So, no he's not Jordan or Magic, you're looking for him to be Jason Kidd.

Imagine it's game 7 WCF again and fast breaks are at a minimum. The defence is doing everything in it's power legal and illegal to stop anyone from cutting down the lane in the half court sets. We're talking grabbing jerseys, pushing, bodying anyone up who has the audacity to think they can get to the rack. Due to familiarity both teams defences are able to take 1st, 2nd, 3rd options away. Pick and rolls are being jumped so ballhandlers need to create opportunites by breakings down their own man to draw doubles. Thats a tough situation that calls for tough players. Toughness that allow real stars to earn those big contracts they get. Who do you think is going to be more effective in that setting? Rubio or Evans? I'm not saying Rubio would fail miserably in said situation and Evans is made for it. But I think given those circumstances the kings saw the toughness, physical attributes necessary to get the job done in Evans and regretfully didn't see it in Rubio. Regretfully to me only because i'd love to see us all overjoyed about the kings pick and looking forward to next season.

There'd never be consensus in a sufficiently large fanbase and thanks God we still have enough fans that care - at least on KF.com if not in Arco. Again, you're right, I don't see Rubio as a guy who closes out game 7 on his own, but I do see him as a guy who gets Spencer and JT to get you to the playoffs.


As for toughness, I assume you're talking about physical aspect of it, which is huge advantage Evans. Otherwise, mental toughness-wise, Rubio is about as close to being the only guy in the whole draft whose mental mettle has been extensively tested and who passed with flying colors - playing huge games at age 17 and 18 against grown men.

As an aside, am I the only one who sees this argument about Evans being much tougher (he is) as either overemphasized (most PG's in NBA, including great ones, are not really physically imposing specimen) or an implicit condemnation of Martin (we need a people-eater PG to compensate for our SG)?