Tyreke The Double Team And Success

  • Thread starter Thread starter sactownfan
  • Start date Start date
bozzwell said:
As an aside, am I the only one who sees this argument about Evans being much tougher (he is) as either overemphasized (most PG's in NBA, including great ones, are not really physically imposing specimen) or an implicit condemnation of Martin (we need a people-eater PG to compensate for our SG)?
Click to expand...

There might be an element of lingering resentment at being repeatedly criticized as a weak team year after year. Shaq's "Sacramento Queens" line is bound to come up sooner or later, for example, if you have a conversation with a Laker fan lasting at least 2 minutes. Watching the Lakers push and shove their way to another NBA title does leave me wanting for a little tough-guy revenge. Given the alternatives, it's not hard to talk myself into playing a 6'5" ball handling SG at the PG spot and watching all the other teams complain like he took their lunch money. I don't think Kevin Martin is the primary factor though. The Kings have been getting outrebounded and outmuscled consistently for several years now and it seems even Petrie has come around to the need for a size and strength advantage at every position we can get it.
 
bozzwell said:
As an aside, am I the only one who sees this argument about Evans being much tougher (he is) as either overemphasized (most PG's in NBA, including great ones, are not really physically imposing specimen) or an implicit condemnation of Martin (we need a people-eater PG to compensate for our SG)?
Click to expand...

I suppose I wouldn't call it a complete condemnation of Martin's game but it does take some time to think of another player who averages 24ppg and requires an equally small amount of double team help by the opposition. This may be that teams don't believe he can score enough for the kings to beat them or his game just plain and simple does not create the need for double team help.


While I do agree that it is special that Rubio has played professional ball since he was a young teenager and without a doubt showed he belonged on the court with stronger more experienced players in high pressure situations. IMO the fact that Rubio was able to do these things is awe inspring. In fact more awe inspiring than what Rubio actually accomplished in most games was the fact that he did not completely implode on the court as young as he is and showed he could run the offense efficiently on his own team and against the worlds best at the Olympic level on the Spanish National team. By no means do I mean to disparage Rubio because I feel like he has a good chance at being a great player as any high lottery pick. But I don't believe you draft on perceived upside especially when dealing with two very young players. Rubio is 18, Evans is 19 so we're talking about two very young players both having obvious holes in their games. To say one has more up side than the other is ridiculous given they're both teenagers. While I do believe Rubio has more experience, Evans is farther along in development. A very real possibility that people forget is that it's not guaranteed that a player gets much better. Upside may never be close to reached and when dealing with players of similar ages I believe you always go with the more refined product rather than the player you dream one to become.
 
Last edited:
Seanathon81 said:
A very real possibility that people forget is that it's not guaranteed that a player gets much better. Upside may never be close to reached and when dealing with players of similar ages I believe you always go with the more refined product rather than the player you dream one to become.
Click to expand...

i agree with this, but only if your team is looking to get over the hump into the playoffs or is a contender. if you're at the bottom as we are, i'd rather swing for the fences and hope to get someone who can become a special player.

we're a young team. IF we picked rubio and he grew into a special player, he would've done so with our young core, which i think is a very crucial thing to developing chemistry. it's what portland's doing, it's what the sonics are doing.

btw bozzwell, nice posts in this thread, completely agree with all you've said.
 
Seanathon81 said:
I don't consider myself to be a genius like Einstein but I have to disagree with you on "rare" talent on this one. Nor do I consider Tyreke to be a player who would comes around less than Haley's comet. Look I honestly feel like i'm taking crazy pills reading this forum since the draft. We did not pass up on Jordan people. Look I understand his skill set better fit the Kings that we loved to watch back in the glory years of Webber and Divacs. But beautiful full court passes gracefully wisking between defenders heads or between their legs looks good during the regular season but when shut down defence during a 7 game series takes place. Those opportunities come few and far between.

Imagine it's game 7 WCF again and fast breaks are at a minimum. The defence is doing everything in it's power legal and illegal to stop anyone from cutting down the lane in the half court sets. We're talking grabbing jerseys, pushing, bodying anyone up who has the audacity to think they can get to the rack. Due to familiarity both teams defences are able to take 1st, 2nd, 3rd options away. Pick and rolls are being jumped so ballhandlers need to create opportunites by breakings down their own man to draw doubles. Thats a tough situation that calls for tough players. Toughness that allow real stars to earn those big contracts they get. Who do you think is going to be more effective in that setting? Rubio or Evans? I'm not saying Rubio would fail miserably in said situation and Evans is made for it. But I think given those circumstances the kings saw the toughness, physical attributes necessary to get the job done in Evans and regretfully didn't see it in Rubio. Regretfully to me only because i'd love to see us all overjoyed about the kings pick and looking forward to next season.
Click to expand...
I wish we had a clapping emoticon...GREAT post.
 
sactownfan said:
But the facts are that most people know Evans is better right now... The thing about Rubio is his age, and that his ceiling could be way up there... but what he can do at the moment is pedestrian in comparison to Evans... yes i think his court vision and passing is better, but everybody knows he needs a ton of work and growth. most people are saying 5 years.

Evans will get better too over time. who knows maybe his court vision and passing get to a top notch level someday.
Click to expand...

Is that really the important factor here though? I think Evans' game translates better to the NBA than Rubio's right now, but since we're not contending for jack right now, I'd say that point is ultimately meaningless.

I don't know if I'd call it pedestrian, as far as IQ, creativity, passing, and PG intangibles I'd say Rubio blows Evans out of the water right now. So I don't know with that being said you can really call Rubio pedestrian in comparison, it's not like Evans is a Carmelo Anthony level prospect and Rubio is Darius Miles.

As far as Rubio taking 5 years to become an effective player I just really disagree with, I think it'll take awhile until he's a finished product, but I think that speaks more to his room to improve shooting wise more than anything. I mean, I think he's got a lot more going for him than Shaun Livingston did coming out of HS.
 
evans will be a sg.... why are we even talking about how he will play at pg. the great lebron james himself couldnt be a fulltime pg and failed at it in his rookie season. he was a sg in his second season and finally a sf in his third. i just hope that sergio can replace beno as our starting pg by mid season if we dont somehow trade hime before that. evans will probably become a good player but it will not be at pg and i doubt that he will be doubled anytime soon.
 
Jerryaki said:
i agree with this, but only if your team is looking to get over the hump into the playoffs or is a contender. if you're at the bottom as we are, i'd rather swing for the fences and hope to get someone who can become a special player.

we're a young team. IF we picked rubio and he grew into a special player, he would've done so with our young core, which i think is a very crucial thing to developing chemistry. it's what portland's doing, it's what the sonics are doing.

btw bozzwell, nice posts in this thread, completely agree with all you've said.
Click to expand...

I guess it's just really a matter personal philosophies here. You can swing for the fences and become relevant overnight. Or you can swing for the fences and draft Tskitishvili, Milicic and Weis while more sure fire talent is on the board. (I didn't pick three European's just because Rubio is European it's just these three players immediately popped in my head when I thought of big swings and misses). Personally I just happen to think the opposite of you. I believe you only swing big in the draft when you are contending. You have a low 1st round pick anyways and a safe pick talent wise probably isn't going to crack your line up anyways. So why not swing big for the guy who in a couple years surprises everyone and becomes the player you dreamed him to be. (See 1999-2000 Spurs when they drafted Ginobili) Of course supplemented by making subtle moves via free agency and trades to find that extra something you're missing given that every veteran free agent loves to come to a contender. Swinging big in drafts on terrible teams year after year puts you on 80's kings status or dare I say lifetime clipper status. However accumulating good pieces (hawes, thompson, garcia, not douby combined with Evans) in the draft may allow you to lure a good free agent or make a trade bringing you back to contender status.
 
Last edited:
Vlade4GM said:
Is that really the important factor here though? I think Evans' game translates better to the NBA than Rubio's right now, but since we're not contending for jack right now, I'd say that point is ultimately meaningless.
Click to expand...

And I'd say that getting butts in the seats next season is a priority for the organization, so yeah, having a better game right now is sorta important. I'd like to see more folks at games, and they come to games when the team starts winning. This team needs fans in the stands and an arena resolution. I think the former may help with the latter.

If we use the pick on Rubio and he is subsequently overseas, gets injured, or can't compete at a very high level right away, we may have "wasted" the last pick of the "Sacramento" Kings and fans ain't coming. I'm not saying any of these things would happen, but the chances are much higher for Ricky than Evans. Tyreke was noted to be one of the top 2-3 players in the draft and by all accounts should be more "NBA-ready" this year than Ricky. I think that also played a part in the selection. And I think they probably made the right choice (even though I selected Ricky in the draft thread a while back, as the draft got closer I changed my mind).

Again, let me be clear - I think Ricky could be a star in this league and has tremendous talent. I am not putting him down at all. The fact is, he is still under contract overseas, has been injured this year, and does not appear to have an "NBA-ready" body like Tyreke. But the draft is fickle, and who knows which player may be better in, say, 4 years. I hope we made the right choice. But whether you support the decision or not, both players have downsides and could end up being looked at later as a "bad" pick. Just too hard to say before either of them have even been to a preseason camp. I think many are jumping the gun on their criticism of players we haven't even seen play on this level. What do you say we give them their chance to porove what they can do before we run them out of their respective towns. ;)
 
I don't think the injury label is fair at all, there are no indications that his injuries will be recurring or that he's prone to injury. Also, I think it's more than fair to assume that the reports that he had his buyout pretty much resolved with the assumption that he would be taken at least 4th, are true.
 
Vlade4GM said:
I don't think the injury label is fair at all, there are no indications that his injuries will be recurring or that he's prone to injury. Also, I think it's more than fair to assume that the reports that he had his buyout pretty much resolved with the assumption that he would be taken at least 4th, are true.
Click to expand...

He is still recovering from the injury, IIRC. I didn't say he was injury-prone.
 
Warhawk said:
He is still recovering from the injury, IIRC. I didn't say he was injury-prone.
Click to expand...

Well I haven't heard anything about that injury still being a problem. If there is no reaosn to believe his injury is recurring or that he is prone to injury, then there is no point in bringing up possible injury.
 
Im so done talking about Rubio as if he would have turned this whole franchise around. He would have been exciting but i think most people are upset because they wanted to go back to that flashy team we had before. Just another case of living in the past IMHO. That team died a long time ago folks...move on.
 
NewArena said:
Im so done talking about Rubio as if he would have turned this whole franchise around. He would have been exciting but i think most people are upset because they wanted to go back to that flashy team we had before. Just another case of living in the past IMHO. That team died a long time ago folks...move on.
Click to expand...

Who do you think desired Rubio out of nostalgia for flashiness? I'm tired of people taking shots at those who wanted Rubio, cheapening their arguments as if they're all just fiending for some highlight videos or something. I don't think it's anymore fair to say that Evans will turn the franchise around than Rubio will.
 
The problem I fear with Evans is he doesn't seem very bright. his interviews are horrible. he my be nervous but he said "you know" like 100 times in a 3min interview.
 
=LarryLegend= said:
The problem I fear with Evans is he doesn't seem very bright. his interviews are horrible. he my be nervous but he said "you know" like 100 times in a 3min interview.
Click to expand...

Judging someone's intelligence from interviews with the media with cameras and mics on them is not fair. Public speaking has very little to do with intelligence.
 
=LarryLegend= said:
The problem I fear with Evans is he doesn't seem very bright. his interviews are horrible. he my be nervous but he said "you know" like 100 times in a 3min interview.
Click to expand...

I've heard many interviews with very smart players who often crossed the 100-time mark of "you know"s.
You can't really infer anything from these interviews.
 
i was a rubio fan... but you guys conviced me tyreke is the better player. he is physically ready, mentally ready enough and can make a difference now, i am not down to wait on rubio liek detroit did on darko sitting him on the bench for 2years and when it was his time to play, look what happened. i dont mean that rubio is darko but i see scary similarities of rubio to shaun livingston, and darko. i hope im wrong and both are hall of famers. call me optimistic.
 
Vlade4GM said:
Huh? You're the one claiming it's still an issue. The onus is on you dude, not me.
Click to expand...

I never said it was an issue, but based on his history (major wrist injury and groin pull in the last year alone) it could be. Just bringing up possible issues that management considered is all (especially considering GP was in the crowd when it happened).
 
Warhawk said:
I never said it was an issue, but based on his history (major wrist injury and groin pull in the last year alone) it could be. Just bringing up possible issues that management considered is all (especially considering GP was in the crowd when it happened).
Click to expand...

Well if they did consider a strike against him then they're moronic because there's no reason to believe it's a lingering/recurring injury. If anything the wrist injury should've added to his upside because it held him back during a lot of games and yet he still played well. His hip/groin (can't remember which it was exactly) injury didn't cause him to miss any games and it was not considered serious.
 
Vlade4GM said:
Who do you think desired Rubio out of nostalgia for flashiness? I'm tired of people taking shots at those who wanted Rubio, cheapening their arguments as if they're all just fiending for some highlight videos or something. I don't think it's anymore fair to say that Evans will turn the franchise around than Rubio will.
Click to expand...

Well actually since Evans is on the Kings I would rate his chances infinitely higher....:D Just joking I got what you meant I just felt like being silly for a minute. I'm really not here to argue semantics.
 
Seanathon81 said:
Look I understand his skill set better fit the Kings that we loved to watch back in the glory years of Webber and Divacs. But beautiful full court passes gracefully wisking between defenders heads or between their legs looks good during the regular season but when shut down defence during a 7 game series takes place. Those opportunities come few and far between.

Imagine it's game 7 WCF again and fast breaks are at a minimum. The defence is doing everything in it's power legal and illegal to stop anyone from cutting down the lane in the half court sets. We're talking grabbing jerseys, pushing, bodying anyone up who has the audacity to think they can get to the rack. Due to familiarity both teams defences are able to take 1st, 2nd, 3rd options away. Pick and rolls are being jumped so ballhandlers need to create opportunites by breakings down their own man to draw doubles. Thats a tough situation that calls for tough players.
Click to expand...

Very good post... I agree mostly and slightly disagree with a lil bit.

I agree about the Rubio fits the old style of Kings, and that has a great deal to do with why people here as so drawn to him....

but... I think what it comes down to is the point of the original post. thats the deal breaker difference between the two gurards.

Rubio isn't gonna demand double teams on him. In fact the reason I think he could bust is his lack of athleticism, quickness and isn't a huge threat around the basket or as a shooter. He really isn't a threat to do anything other than hit a slashing teammate to the basket. So teams can play him man to man which means his teammates will be better defended. I really question how effective he will be at creating for himself.

Evans is exactly what this team NEEDED! Someone to draw extra attention and just make simple/standard passes to one of the 11 jump shooters on this team. He also brings toughness and size. I also think its funny how Evans and Rubio are around the same age yet Evans is way more NBA ready right now and could improve just as much as Rubio. Making Evans even more so the better pick.

Having a player that requires a double team is the key to success in this league, and now we have one!

ask teams like Boston, Lakers, (anyone that has more than one player that requires a double team) how much does that help your team offense??? Honestly If Lebron was on the Kings last year we could have gone from last to champions! Martin and Lebron would be lights out.

Evans is not at all Lebron...LOL! but he does some similar things and thats a big step in the right direction.

I think only Evans can stop Evans from succeeding in this league, and if he can play like he did in college for Sacramento...

We'd only be one piece away from contending!!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The problem Evans will face becoming an All-Star is the other great PG's in the west. You can pencil in Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Tony Parker for the next 6-10 years (depending on their current age).

It's a popularity contest, and your team has to be successful to be considered. As long as the Kings aren't good Evans doesnt' stand a chance. Once they are good he'll have to beat out the 2 best guards currently in the game
 
DocHolliday said:
The problem Evans will face becoming an All-Star is the other great PG's in the west. You can pencil in Deron Williams, Chris Paul are almost a showe in for the next 8-10 years.

It's a popularity contest, and your team has to be successful to be considered. As long as the Kings aren't good Evans doesnt' stand a chance. Once they are good he'll have to beat out the 2 best guards currently in the game
Click to expand...

Who says being an all-star is the thing that matters? Tyreke can still be a great point guard without being an all star. Also who knows if both of those PGs will be in the west their whole careers?
 
DocHolliday said:
The problem Evans will face becoming an All-Star is the other great PG's in the west. You can pencil in Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Tony Parker for the next 6-10 years (depending on their current age).

It's a popularity contest, and your team has to be successful to be considered. As long as the Kings aren't good Evans doesnt' stand a chance. Once they are good he'll have to beat out the 2 best guards currently in the game
Click to expand...

LOL! yeah most likely a king wont be voted in for awhile. I think Casspi has a a better shot at getting voted in... LOL! If Evans is the real deal the coaches will pick him...
 
In answer to your post (and not talk about you know who), Evans will demand a double team in the post. He's going to outweigh and outreach the smaller guards by a very large margin. Westphal brought this subject up in his interview, by the way. Also, Evans can get to the rack against anybody in this league and is an excellent finisher. That is a very nice attribute to have in the NBA. By doing so, he can create easy shots for others on this team. Really, as I've said before, the main question with Evans is his ability to shoot the outside shot. If he develops consistency in that part of his game, just forget about it. He'll be able to do whatever he wants when he wants.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Spike
What Does This Team Need Most?
8 9 10
Replies
277
Views
12K
KingsFanSince85
KingsFanSince85
Tetsujin
  • Locked
  • Poll Poll
[Game] Kings vs Clippers, 11/8/2024 7pm PST 10pm EST
9 10 11
Replies
325
Views
7K
The_Jamal
T
J
Balancing the First and Second Units
6 7 8
Replies
211
Views
10K
hrdboild
hrdboild
J
Where is the free flowing offense?
Replies
9
Views
506
Makaveli
Makaveli
GWD
Open Letter to Coach Christie
Replies
23
Views
2K
Caccia
Caccia
Back
Top