Tyreke is NOT happy
- Thread starter kingjatt
- Start date
Well while everyone has a different opinion on Tyreke, I think we can all agree that Keith Smart needs to go, and this team needs a traditional coach that emphasizes defense and traditional lineups. Also only 2 of Cousins, Tyreke, Thornton should be in the starting lineup. Thornton needs to take on the Ginobli, Harden, Terry role for this team going forward. We need defensive players that can shoot to spread the floor at the 1 and 3. Also a stretch 4 would be ideal if our core is Tyreke and Cousins. It opens up lanes for Tyreke and gives Cousins the space to operate inside. The current roster we have besides Cousins, Tyreke, Thornton, Isaiah, Terrence Williams, JT and perhaps Jimmer going forward is terrible. Besides JT, you can say our top 7 players are all offensive minded, shoot first ask questions later type players. That is not how a team is built.
Look at OKC which imo is the closest team that resembles what we are trying to build. Durant is a pure scorer superstar . Westbrook is the attack minded gaurd/scorer, Harden is the more overall player that can score and dish. The rest of their players are role players. Ibaka, Perkins, Sefolosha, Collison, Fisher are all role players. Either defenders/enforcers, hustle players, or shooters. Thats 3 offensive players and the rest of the roster is roleplayers.
Now look at the Kings roster
1. Cousins- Inside scorer, hustle player
2. Tyreke- Score first gaurd
3. Thornton- Pure scorer
4. Isaiah- score first pg, with some playmaking ability
5. JT- Hustle player
6. T Will- all around player, can score or distribute pretty well
7. Jimmer- pure scorer/shooter
8. Donte- scorer
Look at OKC which imo is the closest team that resembles what we are trying to build. Durant is a pure scorer superstar . Westbrook is the attack minded gaurd/scorer, Harden is the more overall player that can score and dish. The rest of their players are role players. Ibaka, Perkins, Sefolosha, Collison, Fisher are all role players. Either defenders/enforcers, hustle players, or shooters. Thats 3 offensive players and the rest of the roster is roleplayers.
Now look at the Kings roster
1. Cousins- Inside scorer, hustle player
2. Tyreke- Score first gaurd
3. Thornton- Pure scorer
4. Isaiah- score first pg, with some playmaking ability
5. JT- Hustle player
6. T Will- all around player, can score or distribute pretty well
7. Jimmer- pure scorer/shooter
8. Donte- scorer
He didn't win more.. It was 11-24 to 10-19. IT won more.. It took more games though..
Aslo.. With IT at PG we had Evans playing out of position, and MT injured for a bit of time. And you've got to count the WHOLE record this year, not just under Smart. Smart has proved he can't coach and you only want to include his record?
If you get to only include the record under Smart then I will only include the record of IT where Evans isn't playing out of position, and where MT isn't injured.. Seems fair.. Weren't we undefeated without Evans in the lineup? Should I only get to include that since all the other games he's been out of position?
BTW, we won today with Evans at SG even though the idiots at yahoo put him at SF.
Aslo.. With IT at PG we had Evans playing out of position, and MT injured for a bit of time. And you've got to count the WHOLE record this year, not just under Smart. Smart has proved he can't coach and you only want to include his record?
If you get to only include the record under Smart then I will only include the record of IT where Evans isn't playing out of position, and where MT isn't injured.. Seems fair.. Weren't we undefeated without Evans in the lineup? Should I only get to include that since all the other games he's been out of position?
BTW, we won today with Evans at SG even though the idiots at yahoo put him at SF.
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Like I said before, if we are winning with Evans at PG then I would probably be posting how wrong I was about Evans not being able to play PG, but the simple fact is that Evans at PG is as bad as IT at PG is, but at least with IT we are deficient in both offense and defense like with Reke.. We are only crappy at defense. With Evans we were crappy at D and O.
I don't want either starting at PG in the long run (Evans or IT). I want a PG that can see the WHOLE floor and who can have the size to D up on a SG or SF if there is a switch. I also want Evans to make a friggin jumpshot once and a while too. All I ask for is consistency from Evans from mid range, a PG that can see the whole floor and who has good size to play help D when needed, who also sees the floor and gets all the players on the team involved. I also want a SF who can D up, and hit a 3pt shot occasionally since Evans at the 2 won't be doing that. I also want a PF who plays like Thompson on a good day consistently, and a C who doesn't get into foul trouble almost every game..
If we have that then it's a recipe for success if we have a coach who knows how to play them.
I don't want either starting at PG in the long run (Evans or IT). I want a PG that can see the WHOLE floor and who can have the size to D up on a SG or SF if there is a switch. I also want Evans to make a friggin jumpshot once and a while too. All I ask for is consistency from Evans from mid range, a PG that can see the whole floor and who has good size to play help D when needed, who also sees the floor and gets all the players on the team involved. I also want a SF who can D up, and hit a 3pt shot occasionally since Evans at the 2 won't be doing that. I also want a PF who plays like Thompson on a good day consistently, and a C who doesn't get into foul trouble almost every game..
If we have that then it's a recipe for success if we have a coach who knows how to play them.
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I am very sorry the numbrs are inconvenient for you. It does break my heart.
But as comparing records under the same coach is by far the clearer comparison with a major factor zeroes out, think I'll stick with my approach. Trying to compare records using the Westphal chaos when he is out issuing ultimatums against his best player, who is suspended, then tells the coach to **** off etc. is just pathetic. Its not ignorant, its dishonest, which is a whole other level of sad.
BTW, "he didn't win more, Isaiah won more, it just took him more games?" LOL. I only wish that had been an attempt at humor.
But as comparing records under the same coach is by far the clearer comparison with a major factor zeroes out, think I'll stick with my approach. Trying to compare records using the Westphal chaos when he is out issuing ultimatums against his best player, who is suspended, then tells the coach to **** off etc. is just pathetic. Its not ignorant, its dishonest, which is a whole other level of sad.
BTW, "he didn't win more, Isaiah won more, it just took him more games?" LOL. I only wish that had been an attempt at humor.
10-14 vs. 11-24
And Thronton missed MORE games in Reke's 22 games than he has in ITs 35 games. And when THornotn went out with Reke he got double dipped with both the Salmons AND Jimmer fallacies in the starting lineup. IT has Reke right there to pick up the slack. Along with Outlaw
And Thronton missed MORE games in Reke's 22 games than he has in ITs 35 games. And when THornotn went out with Reke he got double dipped with both the Salmons AND Jimmer fallacies in the starting lineup. IT has Reke right there to pick up the slack. Along with Outlaw
Dude, you are seriously delusional..
If you aren't going to include all the stats then there is no need to even argue with you. You only pick and choose which you want to include because it makes you look better..
Ok then I pick and choose the lineup because Evans has been out of position this whole time.. We were 3-0 without Evans and 1-1 in the last two with Evans at SG... So I just want to include that.. So 4-1.. We are obviously better with IT at PG and Evans not playing out of position..
Sound dumb? Well that's how you sound to me. Include all the stats or don't argue.. Don't pick and choose what you want to.. I didn't.
EDIT: yes I was making a joke about 11 wins being more than 10 even though the record was worse, that's why I threw in that last part because I figured it would fly over your head.
If you aren't going to include all the stats then there is no need to even argue with you. You only pick and choose which you want to include because it makes you look better..
Ok then I pick and choose the lineup because Evans has been out of position this whole time.. We were 3-0 without Evans and 1-1 in the last two with Evans at SG... So I just want to include that.. So 4-1.. We are obviously better with IT at PG and Evans not playing out of position..
Sound dumb? Well that's how you sound to me. Include all the stats or don't argue.. Don't pick and choose what you want to.. I didn't.
EDIT: yes I was making a joke about 11 wins being more than 10 even though the record was worse, that's why I threw in that last part because I figured it would fly over your head.
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Brick is only choosing the stats he wants to then arguing it's all under the same coach. Which if that's the case then I will have to bring up how many games Evans has been out of position, and how many games MT (our leading scorer) has been injured. You can't just pick and choose the stats you want to to make your argument look better.
And the Kings record with Evans not starting at the SF (either because he was out of the game, started at SG, or because he came off the bench is 5-5, which I assume is a valid argument since it's all under Coach Smart. That's all Brick wanted to talk about.. I am sure he will find something wrong with the +/- or he won't discuss it at all because it does not benefit his argument. Or he will bring out his 10-14 record under Smart then say there is no such thing as a honeymoon period with a new coach.
NEVER!!!
LOL It's OK.. Gives us all something to talk about. But in the end it's our inept coach's decision. At least we can agree on one thing.. He took Evans from PG, where some of you want him, and put him at SF where NONE of us want him..
Now some of us want him at SG, and some at PG.. In the end I guess we will have to wait and see what happens. No amount of argument from us will change that.
LOL It's OK.. Gives us all something to talk about. But in the end it's our inept coach's decision. At least we can agree on one thing.. He took Evans from PG, where some of you want him, and put him at SF where NONE of us want him..
Now some of us want him at SG, and some at PG.. In the end I guess we will have to wait and see what happens. No amount of argument from us will change that.
I won't bother recalibrating these for the last 2 games, as they largely offset. But since it was convenient for peeps not to respond to this last time I post this a couple of days back, I will bring it forth again. Maybe it will shoo some of the flies around here again:
Reke at PG (games 8-29):
Record: 8-14 (.364)
Home Games: 8
Away Games: 14
Opponent Combined Record: 706-669 .514
Times burdened with the stinky fish as a starter: 22
IT at PG (games 30-62):
Record: 10-23 (.303)
Home Games: 19
Away Games: 14
Opponent Combined Record: 986-1016 .493
Times burdened with the stinky fish as a starter: 2
The advantage during ITs time actualy goes deeper than that of course. Team getting familiar with Smart's system rather than just being thrown in the fire, slowed down schedule and home games allowing for practice dates. The elimnation of the need to play Jimmer and Hickson and Salmons just because. Hayes return, TWill's arrival. IT himself getting the big minutes, whereas during Reke's PG time we frequently squelched him for Jimmer. The general receding of the bad cess of the Westphal era. JT as a starter all the way through. The ultimate rhythm stretch with a 10 game home stand while Reke got the 10 road games in 12 games and back to back to back stretches.
Reke at PG (games 8-29):
Record: 8-14 (.364)
Home Games: 8
Away Games: 14
Opponent Combined Record: 706-669 .514
Times burdened with the stinky fish as a starter: 22
IT at PG (games 30-62):
Record: 10-23 (.303)
Home Games: 19
Away Games: 14
Opponent Combined Record: 986-1016 .493
Times burdened with the stinky fish as a starter: 2
The advantage during ITs time actualy goes deeper than that of course. Team getting familiar with Smart's system rather than just being thrown in the fire, slowed down schedule and home games allowing for practice dates. The elimnation of the need to play Jimmer and Hickson and Salmons just because. Hayes return, TWill's arrival. IT himself getting the big minutes, whereas during Reke's PG time we frequently squelched him for Jimmer. The general receding of the bad cess of the Westphal era. JT as a starter all the way through. The ultimate rhythm stretch with a 10 game home stand while Reke got the 10 road games in 12 games and back to back to back stretches.
This is a point I would agree with. Tyreke and Thornton are both ball-dominant scorers and they don't play off each other well so one of them should come off the bench. Thornton would be ideally suited to an instant-offense off the bench role because of his aggressive mindset. Other guys with that mindset like Ben Gordon, Jamal Crawford, Jason Terry, and Bobby Jackson have excelled in that role.
Isaiah's future in the league is probably as a backup PG on a good team. I don't say that as an insult, I think he'd be one of the best backup PGs in the league. But his size limits him to the PG position and my default category for anyone who isn't a perennial top 15 PG is "backup on a good team".
Williams plays a good complimentary role and doesn't care about scoring so he would fit well in the starting lineup like Sefolosha does for OKC. He's a strong defender at the SG position and good at setting up his teammates.
I don't think Greene is only a scorer, but regardless he's a specialist who's going to have to carve out the rest of his career by doing something really well off the bench, probably spot-up shooting and defensive assignments. He may or may not be doing that on our team next year.
One of Jimmer/Thornton/Thomas gets squeezed out of the rotation because of redundancy and should probably be traded. I'd like to see an attempt made to play Thornton as the sixth man, but I would include any of them in a trade for a player that compliments our lineup better.
Either JT or Whiteside could be the third big off the bench because they can play the PF or C position. Keeping both of them gives us depth, but that depends on how much JT is going to cost.
If Williams is part of the future then I still like Tyreke at the PG position because it gives us the best opportunity to field a strong defensive team. It's not an orthodox lineup, and a Williams/Evans backcourt probably means you need a shooter at SF, but you have a chance for a balanced mix of scoring and playmaking with that combination. If we add in a good defender at SF who can hit open shots and a good defender at PF who can catch and finish when Tyreke or Cousins get double-teamed, that would be a pretty balanced lineup which can both defend and score efficiently.
Isaiah's future in the league is probably as a backup PG on a good team. I don't say that as an insult, I think he'd be one of the best backup PGs in the league. But his size limits him to the PG position and my default category for anyone who isn't a perennial top 15 PG is "backup on a good team".
Williams plays a good complimentary role and doesn't care about scoring so he would fit well in the starting lineup like Sefolosha does for OKC. He's a strong defender at the SG position and good at setting up his teammates.
I don't think Greene is only a scorer, but regardless he's a specialist who's going to have to carve out the rest of his career by doing something really well off the bench, probably spot-up shooting and defensive assignments. He may or may not be doing that on our team next year.
One of Jimmer/Thornton/Thomas gets squeezed out of the rotation because of redundancy and should probably be traded. I'd like to see an attempt made to play Thornton as the sixth man, but I would include any of them in a trade for a player that compliments our lineup better.
Either JT or Whiteside could be the third big off the bench because they can play the PF or C position. Keeping both of them gives us depth, but that depends on how much JT is going to cost.
If Williams is part of the future then I still like Tyreke at the PG position because it gives us the best opportunity to field a strong defensive team. It's not an orthodox lineup, and a Williams/Evans backcourt probably means you need a shooter at SF, but you have a chance for a balanced mix of scoring and playmaking with that combination. If we add in a good defender at SF who can hit open shots and a good defender at PF who can catch and finish when Tyreke or Cousins get double-teamed, that would be a pretty balanced lineup which can both defend and score efficiently.
Frankly I don't give a **** what position we play him at (on the offensive end) as long as we are giving him the ball and running plays to get him the ball. If we play Tyreke at the 2 but IT still rather work a 2 man game with Travis Outlaw then we're not going to get any different result. I personally feel that IT can be an upgrade over Beno, working well with Tyreke, but he has to sacrifice some of his shots and look to get the ball to Evans more (he feeds Cousins enough). Tyreke of course has to do his part and improve his jumpshot and other areas of his game. Anyway, going back to the Beno comparison, IT is a good playmaker, has a good midrange shot and is able to get to the rim at times as well. He's also a better 3 point shooter than Beno and we've seen Tyreke get him the ball for open 3s on numerous occasions. On defense he certainly is at VERY LEAST on par with Beno. IT should to try to become as good as Beno was on backdoor cuts though.
If Tyreke improves his game and we get Thomas to play a Beno role, we'll have a pretty good starting core of IT/Evans/DMC - all capable of setting each other up and playing off of each other. Move Thornton to the bench, friggin fill that SF role we've all been b*tching about for the last however-long-it's-been, and we SHOULD become a playoff team. Assuming the coach isn't an idiot of course. We can run our offense in multiple ways, pick and pops with DMC, iso-ing DMC or Tyreke, having Tyreke drive and kick out to capable shooters, running plays through Cuz at the high post etc. So much potential if the coach takes the effort to develop it. Individually Tyreke's jumpshot will probably add the most value to the team, so that's on him to improve.
If Tyreke improves his game and we get Thomas to play a Beno role, we'll have a pretty good starting core of IT/Evans/DMC - all capable of setting each other up and playing off of each other. Move Thornton to the bench, friggin fill that SF role we've all been b*tching about for the last however-long-it's-been, and we SHOULD become a playoff team. Assuming the coach isn't an idiot of course. We can run our offense in multiple ways, pick and pops with DMC, iso-ing DMC or Tyreke, having Tyreke drive and kick out to capable shooters, running plays through Cuz at the high post etc. So much potential if the coach takes the effort to develop it. Individually Tyreke's jumpshot will probably add the most value to the team, so that's on him to improve.
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Look, what I am trying to say is you can find all these numbers about the TEAM that back up what you say about how the team plays with one individual vs. another, but that depends on way too many factors outside of the individual's control (For example, when IT is at PG, Tyreke is being played as a not as useful SF). You have listed an amalgam of factors that could contribute to a better team after the switch, but I could just as easily do the same for before. If this was an individual game where IT played and Tyreke played, then yes, you could use wins and losses or point differential to find out how good they are doing. In reality, there are a massive amount of factors completely unrelated to IT and Tyreke that alter the team's play. Thus, you must actually look at how they have played. So why don't we take a look?
Tyreke's stats at starting PG-
FG%- 41.5
PPG- 16.8
APG- 5.0
RPG- 4.8
TO- 3.0
Isaiah Thomas as a starting PG-
FG%- 47.7
PPG- 15.0
APG- 5.3
RPG- 3.0
TO- 2.1
Reke put up slightly better PPG and more RPG, but a MUCH lower FG%, more TOs, and slightly less APG. You have to take into account that IT is playing with Tyreke at SF while Tyreke is playing with Salmons at SF, meaning Tyreke is going to demand more shots than Salmons and IT is going to have less PPG. I don't see how anyone could argue that Tyreke played better during his time at PG than IT. You definitely can't argue that Tyreke was playing great in his time at PG. When are people going to start putting SOME of the blame on Tyreke for his lack of development in his game over 3 years? Forget the last few months with him moving to SF. He hadn't developed at all before then! There is no question he is a talented player with a very nice place in this league, but the complete disregard of his play at PG is alarming. He was not playing well, simple as that. Where does that put him? He's not a PG and he's surely not a SF. His spot is at SG and he needs to develop a shot. Simple as that.
Edit: Lemme make it clear, because some of you have the idea that if you do not fully support Tyreke in everything that he does then you are a hater: I THINK TYREKE IS A VERY GOOD PLAYER AND I WANT TO KEEP HIM.
Tyreke's stats at starting PG-
FG%- 41.5
PPG- 16.8
APG- 5.0
RPG- 4.8
TO- 3.0
Isaiah Thomas as a starting PG-
FG%- 47.7
PPG- 15.0
APG- 5.3
RPG- 3.0
TO- 2.1
Reke put up slightly better PPG and more RPG, but a MUCH lower FG%, more TOs, and slightly less APG. You have to take into account that IT is playing with Tyreke at SF while Tyreke is playing with Salmons at SF, meaning Tyreke is going to demand more shots than Salmons and IT is going to have less PPG. I don't see how anyone could argue that Tyreke played better during his time at PG than IT. You definitely can't argue that Tyreke was playing great in his time at PG. When are people going to start putting SOME of the blame on Tyreke for his lack of development in his game over 3 years? Forget the last few months with him moving to SF. He hadn't developed at all before then! There is no question he is a talented player with a very nice place in this league, but the complete disregard of his play at PG is alarming. He was not playing well, simple as that. Where does that put him? He's not a PG and he's surely not a SF. His spot is at SG and he needs to develop a shot. Simple as that.
Edit: Lemme make it clear, because some of you have the idea that if you do not fully support Tyreke in everything that he does then you are a hater: I THINK TYREKE IS A VERY GOOD PLAYER AND I WANT TO KEEP HIM.
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I'd take San Antonio's patience on Tony Parker as an example why not to give up on Reke's sub par perimeter shooting.
When Parker came into the league, for a PG he didn't have a good perimeter game at all. But he was so quick in getting himself to the paint and I believe he even lead the league once for most points in the paint.
Reke may not be as quick as TP but Reke is easily the strongest PG in the league right now. And that makes him almost unstoppable once he gets to the paint.
San Antonio also have low post thriving big man in Duncan. But that didn't stop Popovich from devising an effective way to win games with a paint-scoring PG and big man.
The Big O is right, too much talent on this team is not properly utilized. Just because these guys doesn't work well with Smart's system doesn't mean they can really play well together. I'm more inclined to changing Smarts X and Os than forcing Reke at SF and seeing him leave for nothing.
When Parker came into the league, for a PG he didn't have a good perimeter game at all. But he was so quick in getting himself to the paint and I believe he even lead the league once for most points in the paint.
Reke may not be as quick as TP but Reke is easily the strongest PG in the league right now. And that makes him almost unstoppable once he gets to the paint.
San Antonio also have low post thriving big man in Duncan. But that didn't stop Popovich from devising an effective way to win games with a paint-scoring PG and big man.
The Big O is right, too much talent on this team is not properly utilized. Just because these guys doesn't work well with Smart's system doesn't mean they can really play well together. I'm more inclined to changing Smarts X and Os than forcing Reke at SF and seeing him leave for nothing.