Trade targets

#32
I think blocks is a poor way to measure someone’s defensive impact. If they played equal minutes, Hali will likely get more blocks than Mitchell, but no one, in their right mind, would rate Hali as a better defender than Mitchell. Holmes, for example, has decent block numbers, but he’s not an elite defender. Give me the non-box score defensive counting stats that Adams or Jonas gets over the flashy off the ball/gambling defensive stats all day.
I don't disagree with your premise but he is a very good defender as well.

"Since Turner's rookie season, only three players have blocked more shots than he has. He ranks 15th in the league in deflections and is top-five in terms of defensive field goal percentage at the rim. Indiana's defensive rating is a 107.7 when he is on the court and a 111.3 when he is on the bench"

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/...rner's rookie season, only,he is on the bench

With respect to the blocks, my point is that it shows he is in good defensive position which our bigs are not. Holmes can handle the offensive burden for him too.
 
#33
Turner is only viable if your getting Simmons or something of that nature, otherwise if he's the main piece your building around with Fox/Hali it's another 30-35 win season incoming.
He's not only a viable player if he is playing next to Simmons. Come on now. That's pretty extreme.

The point you're trying to make sounds like a Fox or Hali vs. Simmons debate rather than a discussion around Turner. Turner would be a viable player whether he's playing with Fox/Haliburton or Simmons. If you think a Fox/Haliburton led team is flawed, then that's a different issue entirely. No need to conflate the two.
 
#34
He's not only a viable player if he is playing next to Simmons. Come on now. That's pretty extreme.

The point you're trying to make sounds like a Fox or Hali vs. Simmons debate rather than a discussion around Turner. Turner would be a viable player whether he's playing with Fox/Haliburton or Simmons. If you think a Fox/Haliburton led team is flawed, then that's a different issue entirely. No need to conflate the two.
Turner provides a shot altering presence and he spaces the floor, but he doesn’t solve the ball movement issues in the front court. He’s a clear level above Holmes, but it’s imperfect. If the Kings miss on Simmons, I’d rather they go after Sabonis, who provides less defense, but unlocks the offense with his passing and scoring ability. Then just hold onto Len and Jones for their shot altering abilities.
 
#35
Turner provides a shot altering presence and he spaces the floor, but he doesn’t solve the ball movement issues in the front court. He’s a clear level above Holmes, but it’s imperfect. If the Kings miss on Simmons, I’d rather they go after Sabonis, who provides less defense, but unlocks the offense with his passing and scoring ability. Then just hold onto Len and Jones for their shot altering abilities.
Simmons is not the end all, be all to improve our playmaking from the frontcourt. Turner, without Simmons, is still a very viable pickup for us and addresses our biggest weakness...defense.
 
#36
Simmons is not the end all, be all to improve our playmaking from the frontcourt. Turner, without Simmons, is still a very viable pickup for us and addresses our biggest weakness...defense.
I would like to see us go for Turner as well. Mainly because I think he could be had for Buddy and either Bagley/picks, but also because that would give us another player who can get a bucket when defenses clamp down.
 
#37
I would like to see us go for Turner as well. Mainly because I think he could be had for Buddy and either Bagley/picks, but also because that would give us another player who can get a bucket when defenses clamp down.
I think you're going to have to give up two 1st rounders of value for him. Whether that's Mitchell/1st, Barnes/1st, Barnes/Mitchell, etc. it's up to you on what you're willing to part with, but I can't see you prying him away from IND for anything less considering:

  • He's 25 years old
  • On a reasonable contract (makes less than both Hield & Barnes)
  • Is in All-Defensive Team conversations year after year
  • He's a true rim protector
  • He can step out and knock the 3 with solid volume and efficiency

That is a very rare combination of skills and that rarity will demand value.
 
#38
Turner provides a shot altering presence and he spaces the floor, but he doesn’t solve the ball movement issues in the front court. He’s a clear level above Holmes, but it’s imperfect. If the Kings miss on Simmons, I’d rather they go after Sabonis, who provides less defense, but unlocks the offense with his passing and scoring ability. Then just hold onto Len and Jones for their shot altering abilities.
I dont think the offense is the problem. He provides good spacing and another lob target for hali and fox. I honestly think with better rim protection and another good perimeter defender (thybulle type), hali and fox could work together.

That said, i am ok with the notion of moving either. With Fox, he is likely more of the candidate to be moved given his ability to literally carry the scoring load on most nights. Hali on the rookie contract also is a keeper from the financial perspective. The only thing is to move him must demand a kings ransom... 2-3 first rounders and at least one young high quality prospect. Especially over the last few weeks, i think he is getting back to the fox we know, but he is actually hitting his free throws at a good clip. I would be very reluctant to actually part with him.
 
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#39
I was thinking about a Hield for Horford swap but I'm unsure if Boston would be willing.

Hield has 2.5 years left on his bad contract while Horford only has 1.5 years left on his bad contract. On top of that, I think Horford is a more impactful player than Hield, but if a Hield & Horford trade can happen without us giving up too much more value and we can flip Holmes for PJ Washington, I think it would be a couple low key moves that that upgrades all (or most) of our major weaknesses without sacrificing the future:

  • It's a defensive upgrade as I think Washington is a better defender than Bagley and Horford is a better defender than Holmes.
  • It's a playmaking/ball movement upgrade (Washington averages 3.4 AST/36 min and Horford averages 4.6 AST/36 min; whereas, Bagley averages 1.2 AST/36 min and Holmes averages 1.8 AST/36 min).
  • It improves the floor spacing as Washington is a better shooter than Bagley and Horford can stretch the floor at C (although he's slumping currently)

I think you'd see a drastic difference in Fox's game offensively being able to play 5 out and let him tear up defenses with his quickness, speed, and driving ability.

PG - Fox / Mitchell / I. Smith
SG - Haliburton / Davis / Ramsey
SF - Barnes / Harkless / Woodard
PF - Washington / Bagley / Metu
C - Horford / Jones / Len / Thompson

EDIT: And since we get out of Hield's contract a year early, we'd have ~$50-55 mil in cap space in the 2023 offseason with the following players under contract: Fox, Haliburton, Mitchell, Washington (~$11 mil cap hold as a RFA), Woodard, 2022 SAC 1st, and 2023 SAC 1st. That's a lot of flexibility to work with.
 
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#40
I was thinking about a Hield for Horford swap but I'm unsure if Boston would be willing.

Hield has 2.5 years left on his bad contract while Horford only has 1.5 years left on his bad contract. On top of that, I think Horford is a more impactful player than Hield, but if a Hield & Horford trade can happen without us giving up too much more value and we can flip Holmes for PJ Washington, I think it would be a couple low key moves that that upgrades all (or most) of our major weaknesses without sacrificing the future:

  • It's a defensive upgrade as I think Washington is a better defender than Bagley and Horford is a better defender than Holmes.
  • It's a playmaking/ball movement upgrade (Washington averages 3.4 AST/36 min and Horford averages 4.6 AST/36 min; whereas, Bagley averages 1.2 AST/36 min and Holmes averages 1.8 AST/36 min).
  • It improves the floor spacing as Washington is a better shooter than Bagley and Horford can stretch the floor at C (although he's slumping currently)

I think you'd see a drastic difference in Fox's game offensively being able to play 5 out and let him tear up defenses with his quickness, speed, and driving ability.

PG - Fox / Mitchell / I. Smith
SG - Haliburton / Davis / Ramsey
SF - Barnes / Harkless / Woodard
PF - Washington / Bagley / Metu
C - Horford / Jones / Len / Thompson

EDIT: And since we get out of Hield's contract a year early, we'd have ~$50-55 mil in cap space in the 2023 offseason with the following players under contract: Fox, Haliburton, Mitchell, Washington (~$11 mil cap hold as a RFA), Woodard, 2022 SAC 1st, and 2023 SAC 1st. That's a lot of flexibility to work with.
Boston needs a penetrating point guard. Not another gunner.
 
#41
I dont think the offense is the problem. He provides good spacing and another lob target for hali and fox. I honestly think with better rim protection and another good perimeter defender (thybulle type), hali and fox could work together.

That said, i am ok with the notion of moving either. With Fox, he is likely more of the candidate to be moved given his ability to literally carry the scoring load on most nights. Hali on the rookie contract also is a keeper from the financial perspective. The only thing is to move him must demand a kings ransom... 2-3 first rounders and at least one young high quality prospect. Especially over the last few weeks, i think he is getting back to the fox we know, but he is actually hitting his free throws at a good clip. I would be very reluctant to actually part with him.
I didn’t say his offense was a problem. I said he wouldn’t give us the passing that Sabonis does. Sabonis unlocks Hali’s shooting in a way that Turner can’t. And, hypothetically, if Fox was on the Kings with Sabonis, Fox would get 6 to 8 points per game on easy layups just by cutting to the rim and receiving a pass from Sabonis. It may surprise current Kings fans, but big men can be great passers as well. Kings we’re great in the early 2000s because their bigs were elite passers. Have had nothing but low bbq iq, Uber athletic, rim running bigs the last ten yrs (outside of Giles).
 
#42
Boston needs a penetrating point guard. Not another gunner.
You say that like Boston is already riddled with "gunners".

You can't deny that Hield's gravity would be helpful next to Brown & Tatum, and then you have Smart, Brown, Tatum, & R. Williams starting around Hield who can more than easily makeup for his defensive deficiencies.
 
#43
He's not only a viable player if he is playing next to Simmons. Come on now. That's pretty extreme.

The point you're trying to make sounds like a Fox or Hali vs. Simmons debate rather than a discussion around Turner. Turner would be a viable player whether he's playing with Fox/Haliburton or Simmons. If you think a Fox/Haliburton led team is flawed, then that's a different issue entirely. No need to conflate the two.
I meant to say if Fox or Hali along with Turner are your 2 best players on the team than it's another 35 win season, to me Turner has to be the 3rd or 4th best player on the team for it to be a playoff team.
 
#44
I meant to say if Fox or Hali along with Turner are your 2 best players on the team than it's another 35 win season, to me Turner has to be the 3rd or 4th best player on the team for it to be a playoff team.
How does trading for Simmons affect Turner being the 3rd or 4th best player on the team?
 
#45
You know what is frustrating? The fact that all tyese rumors a swirling with Tuner to Dallas, or Grant to ATL. However, not a single peep to indicate that this team has any plan except the fact that they will be open to trading fox and hali...expecting a team to come to them.
 
#46
You know what is frustrating? The fact that all tyese rumors a swirling with Tuner to Dallas, or Grant to ATL. However, not a single peep to indicate that this team has any plan except the fact that they will be open to trading fox and hali...expecting a team to come to them.
Those aren't really rumors though. That's just active fanbases spit balling in public. There's less talk about us because our fanbase is dwindling and it wasn't that big to begin with. Mostly you're just going to hear "rumors" about players we have that other teams want and mostly they're going to be offering us garbage in return.
 
#47
Those aren't really rumors though. That's just active fanbases spit balling in public. There's less talk about us because our fanbase is dwindling and it wasn't that big to begin with. Mostly you're just going to hear "rumors" about players we have that other teams want and mostly they're going to be offering us garbage in return.
Shams mentioned the rumors in his most recent update on the Athletic.
 
#48
Shams mentioned the rumors in his most recent update on the Athletic.
Sure but all of these guys are working for somebody or friends with somebody or have an ongoing agreement with somebody and they leak information that they want leaked. It's just another form of PR. The fans are restless, let's feed them the idea that we're doing something.
 
#49
Sure but all of these guys are working for somebody or friends with somebody or have an ongoing agreement with somebody and they leak information that they want leaked. It's just another form of PR. The fans are restless, let's feed them the idea that we're doing something.
If it is coming from Woj or Shams, the source is from front offices or agents. Not just fan bases spit balling.
 
#50
If it is coming from Woj or Shams, the source is from front offices or agents. Not just fan bases spit balling.
There's two things happening here. Blogs retweet things as news which are fan generated at times. The bigger the fanbase, the louder the perceived "volume" of trade buzz there is around that team. Woj and Shams leak information that front offices want leaked. It's not top secret information or the NBA would have put a stop to them a long time ago. In both cases the size of the fanbase is a factor, as are the intentions and connections of the front office personnel. All I'm saying is that a lack of rumors doesn't indicate a lack of activity or interest from the team itself.
 
#51
There's two things happening here. Blogs retweet things as news which are fan generated at times. The bigger the fanbase, the louder the perceived "volume" of trade buzz there is around that team. Woj and Shams leak information that front offices want leaked. It's not top secret information or the NBA would have put a stop to them a long time ago. In both cases the size of the fanbase is a factor, as are the intentions and connections of the front office personnel. All I'm saying is that a lack of rumors doesn't indicate a lack of activity or interest from the team itself.
Detroit, ATL, Philly, and Dallas are not exactly first city fan bases though.
 
#52
Detroit, ATL, Philly, and Dallas are not exactly first city fan bases though.
Atlanta, Philly, and Dallas are all top 10 media markets in the US. I don't know what the phrase "first city" means. It could also be that they have players that other teams are interested in so that's why they're in the rumors (that's usually the only context in which we get mentioned). Or in the case of Dallas they just have a player who generates a lot of interest in general. If it was Dennis Smith Jr.'s team we probably wouldn't be hearing as much about Dallas.
 
#53
You know what is frustrating? The fact that all tyese rumors a swirling with Tuner to Dallas, or Grant to ATL. However, not a single peep to indicate that this team has any plan except the fact that they will be open to trading fox and hali...expecting a team to come to them.
And this looks every bit to be the Monte McNair we've seen so far. He waited for teams to come to him with Bogdan. Blew it. Waited for the Lakers to come to him for Buddy. Used him. Wouldn't jump up on Walton when the time was right, now this probably can't be fixed because it caused so much damage. Ended up running back non-game changers like Harkless who will be taking up valuable potential cap space this summer. Just took BPA and waited. So far, not really working out. Vivek needs a GM that will make things happen, not wait for them to. Every day he waits, the escape hatch closes a little more.
 
#54
And this looks every bit to be the Monte McNair we've seen so far. He waited for teams to come to him with Bogdan. Blew it. Waited for the Lakers to come to him for Buddy. Used him. Wouldn't jump up on Walton when the time was right, now this probably can't be fixed because it caused so much damage. Ended up running back non-game changers like Harkless who will be taking up valuable potential cap space this summer. Just took BPA and waited. So far, not really working out. Vivek needs a GM that will make things happen, not wait for them to. Every day he waits, the escape hatch closes a little more.
We have little or no idea how proactive Monte has been in pursuing trades over the last 16 months or now. Nor do we know whether Vivek is being more or less restrictive in allowing McNair to make decisions as he sees fit.
 
#55
We have little or no idea how proactive Monte has been in pursuing trades over the last 16 months or now. Nor do we know whether Vivek is being more or less restrictive in allowing McNair to make decisions as he sees fit.
Will this be Monte's second in season trade deadline? I do think there has been some indication Monte is fairly active - last trade deadline he seemed fairly active - moved CoJo for Wright, moved some seconds for TD, moved an unhappy and expiring Beli for Harkless. Seemed to say no to an HB for Nesmith and pick swap with Boston (rumour). Seemed to have Detroit say no to an MB for Bey swap (rumour). They may not be the big moves everyone wants but they do indicate activity. They are also not bad moves. We had no depth last season and now we have some depth. Sure it would be nice if we had depth, talent, balance, and some rings. But that will not happen in one and a bit trade windows.
 
#56
Will this be Monte's second in season trade deadline? I do think there has been some indication Monte is fairly active - last trade deadline he seemed fairly active - moved CoJo for Wright, moved some seconds for TD, moved an unhappy and expiring Beli for Harkless. Seemed to say no to an HB for Nesmith and pick swap with Boston (rumour). Seemed to have Detroit say no to an MB for Bey swap (rumour). They may not be the big moves everyone wants but they do indicate activity. They are also not bad moves. We had no depth last season and now we have some depth. Sure it would be nice if we had depth, talent, balance, and some rings. But that will not happen in one and a bit trade windows.
Damn that MB3 for Bey would have been nice.
 
#57
We have little or no idea how proactive Monte has been in pursuing trades over the last 16 months or now. Nor do we know whether Vivek is being more or less restrictive in allowing McNair to make decisions as he sees fit.
Here's the thing though, when what happened to Buddy happens and you're trying to win? You get out of that ASAP. You got screwed, no reason to drag out a **** show longer than it has to when it becomes one. Unfortunately prime value also goes out the window at that point. He did the same thing with Walton while history told him the longer he waits the worse it gets. Ignored. Mismanaged. It could be Dumars. It could be Vivek. If it is and Monte is a glorified human shield than he better be ready to take the hits because they're coming.
 
#58
Here's the thing though, when what happened to Buddy happens and you're trying to win? You get out of that ASAP. You got screwed, no reason to drag out a **** show longer than it has to when it becomes one. Unfortunately prime value also goes out the window at that point. He did the same thing with Walton while history told him the longer he waits the worse it gets. Ignored. Mismanaged. It could be Dumars. It could be Vivek. If it is and Monte is a glorified human shield than he better be ready to take the hits because they're coming.
There was an interesting perspective i read. Its not that the team isnt talented. There is plenty of talent on this team. Certainly they are more talented than a Portland team without Dame/CJ, and more talented than a Hawks team without Trey/Collins/Bogi. One could argue this team has enough individual talent to be a middle of the road playoff team, but it has 3 major problems that even a good coach like Gentry can't fix.

1. On court leadership. The two players who should be the leaders of this team are the best veterans (Barnes) and the best player (Fox). Despite Hali's swiss army knife of skills, Fox is the more dominant player, and he makes the wheels go. He is who you give the ball to and get out of the way. Both Fox and Barnes are nice guys, not vocal, and dont hold players accountable. You see alphas on good teams getting up their guys asses to make them play better. These guys are not alphas that can motivate their team to victory.

2. They have major gaps on defense which is the single most important side of the ball. There is no rim protection to make offensive players honest, little ability to really dominate the glass. The only good defender only really is mitchell and when he has been out there recently he is getting beat too because he is being asked to do too much on defense. It looks at times that he is guarding 2-3 guys. This means the bigs and other players are trying to play help too frequently, getting everyone out of position. So this leads to easy buckets of tye opponents have reasonable ball movement, or offensive rebounds and second chances. We need at least 1 more (other than Mitchell) premium on ball defender at all times on the perimeter, who can catch and shoot reasonably (a mattise thybulle type) and the other players need to buy in to playing actual defense. This could include getting an actual defensive minded coach who pluts emphasis on the defensive end. We also need a big who can defend and protect the rim (which is why i want so much for them to move a few pieces for turner).

3. The fit of the current pieces is just not good
 
#60
And look at what ATL just did. Traded Cam Reddish for a bag of chips. Monte is asleep
Are we sure Cam Reddish isn't a bag of chips as well? His last 3 years of performance would certainly suggest so.

I'm not tilted we passed at that tag. I'm more tilted we've neglected building a warchest (which some of us have literally been suggesting the last 5 years), that we aren't in the position to take a flier on Reddish. In our current situation, it would have been massively dumb to tie up our FRP into a bunch of protections over the next 3 years. That's something bad teams continue to do.