Trade Suggestion: Fox for Simmons + #28

D

dude12

Hall of Famer
#601
#601
You got guys on here that swear by metrics and data and then you got guys on here that go with the eye test and utilize metrics and data as a part of evaluations. If you just go by metrics and data, I think it is a terrible way to evaluate guys.

Simmons is tremendous defensively, as in maybe the best in the league of wing type guys. He is a unicorn. But he’s also hard as hell to build around because, he’s a max contract guy who you can sag off of…….yes, he sees the floor well. But you really have to surround him with the right personnel offensively. I mean he has maybe the best big man in the league who dominates teams. He’s surrounded by other good defensive guys. Has some 3 point shooters around him as well.

Those who want to bash Fox, whatever. He’s offensively tremendous. Opposite of Simmons in that he’s an offensive first guy and his defense hasn’t been up to snuff. But I feel as if we build around him with more defensive personal we are on the right track. What would the Kings be like if we had Embiid. Fox has nothing close to a talent like Embiid around him….like at all.

I’ll take Fox all day and build around him as opposed to the max contract defensive specialist who can pass the ball but not shoot at all. And I like Simmons, but gtfoh with the Fox bashing.
 
W

Woot!

Starter
#602
#602
dude12 said:
You got guys on here that swear by metrics and data and then you got guys on here that go with the eye test and utilize metrics and data as a part of evaluations. If you just go by metrics and data, I think it is a terrible way to evaluate guys.

Simmons is tremendous defensively, as in maybe the best in the league of wing type guys. He is a unicorn. But he’s also hard as hell to build around because, he’s a max contract guy who you can sag off of…….yes, he sees the floor well. But you really have to surround him with the right personnel offensively. I mean he has maybe the best big man in the league who dominates teams. He’s surrounded by other good defensive guys. Has some 3 point shooters around him as well.

Those who want to bash Fox, whatever. He’s offensively tremendous. Opposite of Simmons in that he’s an offensive first guy and his defense hasn’t been up to snuff. But I feel as if we build around him with more defensive personal we are on the right track. What would the Kings be like if we had Embiid. Fox has nothing close to a talent like Embiid around him….like at all.

I’ll take Fox all day and build around him as opposed to the max contract defensive specialist who can pass the ball but not shoot at all. And I like Simmons, but gtfoh with the Fox bashing.
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Give Joel Embiid some truth serum and ask him whether he'd rather have De'Aaron Fox or Ben Simmons running point come playoff time.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#604
#604
dude12 said:
You got guys on here that swear by metrics and data and then you got guys on here that go with the eye test and utilize metrics and data as a part of evaluations. If you just go by metrics and data, I think it is a terrible way to evaluate guys.

Simmons is tremendous defensively, as in maybe the best in the league of wing type guys. He is a unicorn. But he’s also hard as hell to build around because, he’s a max contract guy who you can sag off of…….yes, he sees the floor well. But you really have to surround him with the right personnel offensively. I mean he has maybe the best big man in the league who dominates teams. He’s surrounded by other good defensive guys. Has some 3 point shooters around him as well.

Those who want to bash Fox, whatever. He’s offensively tremendous. Opposite of Simmons in that he’s an offensive first guy and his defense hasn’t been up to snuff. But I feel as if we build around him with more defensive personal we are on the right track. What would the Kings be like if we had Embiid. Fox has nothing close to a talent like Embiid around him….like at all.

I’ll take Fox all day and build around him as opposed to the max contract defensive specialist who can pass the ball but not shoot at all. And I like Simmons, but gtfoh with the Fox bashing.
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In a vacuum, Simmons is the superior player to Fox. Basically every piece of data out there says so.

We don't live in a vacuum so that's not the only metric one should go off of when building a team. I personally don't think Fox and Simmons could coexist together so I guess the next question would be if Simmons was offered straight up for Fox, would I do it?

It's a difficult question to answer but I would most likely keep Fox. High level player who has no personality issues and likes being in Sac. Simmons is a bit higher level player with major personality red flags who probably wouldn't want to stay here unless we were contending for championships. I'd lean toward more than likely keeping Fox but it would be a disservice to not even consider it.
 
Kingz19

Kingz19

All-Star
#605
#605
Whether the metrics say Ben Simmons is a better player(right now) than Fox or not...a straight up trade is more or less a lateral move. Not what I want to see from the Kings. That’s just typical. Any other team is talking about acquiring Simmons without touching their best players...and most of them apart from maybe Portland don’t have a better “win now” player to centerpiece a trade for Simmons but the Kings would have better throw ins.

It makes the Kings neither notably better now or better set up for the future. If anything removing by far our best scorer for somebody who would maybe be the third best scorer would put the Kings further in identity crisis even if Simmons may be the more valuable player FOR NOW.

Kings want to build on Fox and Haliburton with Simmons. If anybody else gets Simmons, we can rest assured they won’t be getting near a Fox level player in return. They’ll get a Buddy Hield/Harrison Barnes level starter type, a rotation guy, and prospect/future picks. Those are the breaks when somebody doesn’t want to be there and you also aren’t interested in rebuilding. The only leverage Philly has is that they have him under contract for 4 years, but calling his bluff and sitting on him has consequences that extend far beyond just that particular relationship.

I DO want the Kings to acquire Simmons and I think adding him would turn things around...but only if Fox and Haliburton are still here. We can sort out the odd man out(if there is one) later but as far as I’m concerned, having a lot of play makers and guys who can handle the rock is a good thing and essential.

That means I’m willing to throw a lot of future first rounders at Philly to get him but nothing that leaves us basically in the same position with merely a better defense but now some offensive struggles. Which trading Fox for Simmons would do...and to a lesser extent Haliburton because Haliburton projects as the more desirable secondary ball handler and the only reliable perimeter and free throw shooter next to either. That’s why I view Hali as pretty much untouchable here.
 
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T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#608
#608
NewArena said:
Fox is better than Simmons, period. Not sure why everyone’s so fixated on this
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He's not, but "Better" and "more value" aren't necessarily the same thing. Ben Simmons is a clear top 15 player that's going to be competing for DPOY's the next 7-10 years. I hadn't really thought about Fox's power ranking, but somewhere in that 25-30 range seems correct with potential for more if he figures out the defense. But the Sixers could not have a better (worse?) job at cratering his value, or you would have seen a pile of teams lining up to trade elite talent/assets for him.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#609
#609
dude12 said:
You got guys on here that swear by metrics and data and then you got guys on here that go with the eye test and utilize metrics and data as a part of evaluations. If you just go by metrics and data, I think it is a terrible way to evaluate guys.

Simmons is tremendous defensively, as in maybe the best in the league of wing type guys. He is a unicorn. But he’s also hard as hell to build around because, he’s a max contract guy who you can sag off of…….yes, he sees the floor well. But you really have to surround him with the right personnel offensively. I mean he has maybe the best big man in the league who dominates teams. He’s surrounded by other good defensive guys. Has some 3 point shooters around him as well.

Those who want to bash Fox, whatever. He’s offensively tremendous. Opposite of Simmons in that he’s an offensive first guy and his defense hasn’t been up to snuff. But I feel as if we build around him with more defensive personal we are on the right track. What would the Kings be like if we had Embiid. Fox has nothing close to a talent like Embiid around him….like at all.

I’ll take Fox all day and build around him as opposed to the max contract defensive specialist who can pass the ball but not shoot at all. And I like Simmons, but gtfoh with the Fox bashing.
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This is always the comeback for people who don't follow data closely. No one who follows data and dives into more advanced metrics uses just the numbers. It's more of a checks and balance system because it's actually just impossible for a fan to watch all the minutes of every player. So you're getting a skewed lens of the minutes you did happen to watch.

Holmes is the perfect example. If you never watched Kings games before, you'd see a guy who really pops statistically. Then you go watch Kings games and yeah, that shows out in the film where the team is significantly better with him on the floor.
 
Capt. Factorial

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#611
#611
Tetsujin said:
them: De’Aaron Fox isn’t that good anyways so why are you so against trading him?

me:
https://twitter.com/statuses/1433880940074258432
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Look at the %Assisted number! Holy cow.

Outside of LeBron and Giannis (both in the .400s at best) nobody on that list is getting themselves to the basket even half the time. For Fox, almost 5 out of 6 of his buckets at the rim are off his own drive. That's nutty.
 
Sac.Kings

Sac.Kings

All-Star
#612
#612
Tetsujin said:
them: De’Aaron Fox isn’t that good anyways so why are you so against trading him?

me:
https://twitter.com/statuses/1433880940074258432
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Not to mention how many times he gets fouled in this range and there’s no call. This has improved but the treatment the refs give him reminds me of Allen Iverson. AI got hit a ton going to the hoop but he was just so good that he made a lot of those shots anyway.

Trading Fox for Simmons really doesn’t get us anywhere. Hali has to stay as well, but anyone else is fair game in my mind. I’d love to keep Barnes but this is the real world you gotta give up something. Bagley and Buddy with a first in a perfect world!
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#613
#613
ESP47 said:
What's this based on? Basically every metric has Simmons as the superior player.
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Consider situation, then watch them play, it will become clearer. Fox is on the cusp of entering that elite tier as a go to player. Simmons doesn't even have the mindset for that let alone the ability. Maybe on the right team Simmons could get enough usage and a system put around him to make it work but Fox has had basically no help from his franchise in that way yet, he still developed. He still needs to refine that 3 point ball but the potential is there.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#614
#614
dude12 said:
You got guys on here that swear by metrics and data and then you got guys on here that go with the eye test and utilize metrics and data as a part of evaluations. If you just go by metrics and data, I think it is a terrible way to evaluate guys.

Simmons is tremendous defensively, as in maybe the best in the league of wing type guys. He is a unicorn. But he’s also hard as hell to build around because, he’s a max contract guy who you can sag off of…….yes, he sees the floor well. But you really have to surround him with the right personnel offensively. I mean he has maybe the best big man in the league who dominates teams. He’s surrounded by other good defensive guys. Has some 3 point shooters around him as well.

Those who want to bash Fox, whatever. He’s offensively tremendous. Opposite of Simmons in that he’s an offensive first guy and his defense hasn’t been up to snuff. But I feel as if we build around him with more defensive personal we are on the right track. What would the Kings be like if we had Embiid. Fox has nothing close to a talent like Embiid around him….like at all.

I’ll take Fox all day and build around him as opposed to the max contract defensive specialist who can pass the ball but not shoot at all. And I like Simmons, but gtfoh with the Fox bashing.
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Exactly. It's things like it that convince you Brian Scalibrine is worth his weight in gold. Data is a RESULT, not a cause and largely impacted by situation.
 
D

dude12

Hall of Famer
#615
#615
The_Jamal said:
This is always the comeback for people who don't follow data closely. No one who follows data and dives into more advanced metrics uses just the numbers. It's more of a checks and balance system because it's actually just impossible for a fan to watch all the minutes of every player. So you're getting a skewed lens of the minutes you did happen to watch.

Holmes is the perfect example. If you never watched Kings games before, you'd see a guy who really pops statistically. Then you go watch Kings games and yeah, that shows out in the film where the team is significantly better with him on the floor.
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And this always the comeback for data heads. Not buying that.

Simmons is like Draymond Green. Good player that thrived because he had a tremendous system and then he had maybe the best shootingbackcourt ever. Anyone want to try and build around Draymond Green on a max contract? It’s hard. You have to go get elite scorers, because Draymond by himself wasn’t going to cut it. As a whole, that was an electric team.

With Fox, he is an elite scorer. I’ll build around that. Better yet, I’ll take Simmons with Fox but if I had just Fox, I’ll add the defensive guys around him.

Substitute Fox on the 76ers last year and there is no way you can tell me they aren’t better with him than Simmons. You could try but I ain’t having it.
 
pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#616
#616
I'm curious how advanced stats portray things like passing up a wide open layup for fear of missing or getting fouled and then missing FTs?

I know that they try to accomodate for the quality of opposition as well as the quality of your own team, but it's an imperfect science. And then you take in pay, motivation, and other intangibles. And maybe also consider Fox is still on a upward career trajectory whereas Simmons has stagnated. Probably also worth considering Simmons redshirted his true rookie year even after he was ready to play because (where have I heard this one before) the team placed some priority on qualifying him/getting him top rookie honors.
 
Sluggah

Sluggah

All-Star
#617
#617
I’m taking the guy that’s shown a willingness to improve and the ability to deliver on it year over year. Dude was on the cusp of making the leap before covid ended his season. Where will he be talent-wise when he’s Ben’s age? My guess is one of the best go-to scorers who turns up the defense when the game is on the line. I just hope it isn’t for another team.

48A31C0A-8796-4165-BF71-EF738032A893.gif
 
EIM86

EIM86

Starter
#618
#618
Sluggah said:
I’m taking the guy that’s shown a willingness to improve and the ability to deliver on it year over year. Dude was on the cusp of making the leap before covid ended his season. Where will he be talent-wise when he’s Ben’s age? My guess is one of the best go-to scorers who turns up the defense when the game is on the line. I just hope it isn’t for another team.

View attachment 10668
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I been preaching for a while now that Sac has no choice but to pick players that are self motivated to improve their game as we do not have a good FO to develop players nor a good landing zone for FAs. Fox, Haliburton, Buddy (I still want to trade him but he does have good work ethic), and obviously Off-Night are exactly those types. Ramsey, Wood(w)ard have yoked up a ton and are also part of the culture Monte is building. We are on the right track
 
pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#619
#619
EIM86 said:
I been preaching for a while now that Sac has no choice but to pick players that are self motivated to improve their game as we do not have a good FO to develop players nor a good landing zone for FAs. Fox, Haliburton, Buddy (I still want to trade him but he does have good work ethic), and obviously Off-Night are exactly those types. Ramsey, Wood(w)ard have yoked up a ton and are also part of the culture Monte is building. We are on the right track
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I think that watching Bagley over Luka blow up in our face soured many on these type of player distinctions but the difference between Fox and Simmons is much narrower than where Bagley and Luka presently are.
 
Jkbiker

Jkbiker

Starter
#622
#622
If Philly is desperate enough on Sept 28 (1st day of camp)
Which is better offer might Philly take:

Both offer salaries match within less than 1 mil

Minn:
Beasley,Prince,Edwards 3 1sts (2023,2025,2027) 1 1st Pick Swap(2024) for Simmons,Milton,Springer

Sac: (Best offer Kings will make)
Buddy,Bagley,Ramsey 2 1sts (2022.2024) 1 1st Swap(2025) for Simmons,Reed

I think Buddy,Bagley is better than Beasley,Prince, But Edwards and Extra pick is better than Sac offer

Minn really motivated, has better offer - if both only offers on the table What does Morey Do?
 
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Biggie_swizzz

Biggie_swizzz

G-League
#623
#623
Jkbiker said:
If Philly is desperate enough on Sept 28 (1st day of camp)
Which is better offer might Philly take:

Both offer salaries match within less than 1 mil

Minn:
Beasley,Prince,Edwards 3 1sts (2023,2025,2027) 1 1st Pick Swap(2024) for Simmons,Milton,Springer

Sac: (Best offer Kings will make)
Buddy,Bagley,Ramsey 2 1sts (2022.2024) 1 1st Swap(2025) for Simmons,Reed

I think Buddy,Bagley is better than Beasley,Prince, But Edwards and Extra pick is better than Sac offer

Minn really motivated, has better offer - if both only offers on the table What does Morey Do?
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Minnesota said KAT, DLO, and Edwards are untouchable...
 
W

Woot!

Starter
#625
#625
The_Jamal said:
He's not, but "Better" and "more value" aren't necessarily the same thing. Ben Simmons is a clear top 15 player that's going to be competing for DPOY's the next 7-10 years. I hadn't really thought about Fox's power ranking, but somewhere in that 25-30 range seems correct with potential for more if he figures out the defense. But the Sixers could not have a better (worse?) job at cratering his value, or you would have seen a pile of teams lining up to trade elite talent/assets for him.
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Sorry, but that's crazy-talk. Maybe he's a top-15 regular season player. He's not remotely a top-15 player whom the playoffs are taken into account, which is kind of a big deal. H's a regular season star, but superstars are made - or not - in the postseason. The Sixers have done very poorly in managing his value, as has Simmons himself in the postseason. But by FAR the biggest factor behind the current perception of his value league-wide is his ATROCIOUS performance in the playoffs. That can't be overstated. Can he turn it around? Sure. But he also might retain a liability an opponents will test that proposition without mercy. To call *that* plays top-15 ....
 
EIM86

EIM86

Starter
#626
#626
Woot! said:
Sorry, but that's crazy-talk. Maybe he's a top-15 regular season player. He's not remotely a top-15 player whom the playoffs are taken into account, which is kind of a big deal. H's a regular season star, but superstars are made - or not - in the postseason. The Sixers have done very poorly in managing his value, as has Simmons himself in the postseason. But by FAR the biggest factor behind the current perception of his value league-wide is his ATROCIOUS performance in the playoffs. That can't be overstated. Can he turn it around? Sure. But he also might retain a liability an opponents will test that proposition without mercy. To call *that* plays top-15 ....
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Just off the top of my head

Lebron
AD
Curry
KD
Harden
Kyrie
Embiid
CP3
Giannis
Kawhi
PG
Dame
Luka
Jokic
Tatum

Simmons is not a top 15 player
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#627
#627
EIM86 said:
Just off the top of my head

Lebron
AD
Curry
KD
Harden
Kyrie
Embiid
CP3
Giannis
Kawhi
PG
Dame
Luka
Jokic
Tatum

Simmons is not a top 15 player
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Cp3, Kyrie, PG all highly debatable and you're vastly overrating 1 bad playoff series if you disagree. The other 12, I agree with.
 
EIM86

EIM86

Starter
#629
#629
The_Jamal said:
Cp3, Kyrie, PG all highly debatable and you're vastly overrating 1 bad playoff series if you disagree. The other 12, I agree with.
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CP3 makes every team he goes on good. Brought the Suns to the finals he’s most definitely a top 15 player. Kyrie and PG debateable but they’re easily top 20.

Jimmy Buckets, Mitchell,

basically Simmons is all the way bottom top 15 and nowhere near top 10 player at best
 
W

Woot!

Starter
#630
#630
EIM86 said:
Just off the top of my head

Lebron
AD
Curry
KD
Harden
Kyrie
Embiid
CP3
Giannis
Kawhi
PG
Dame
Luka
Jokic
Tatum

Simmons is not a top 15 player
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I'd trade Beal for Irving in the tier above Simmons. Butler.

And then there're a whole bunch of guys I'd put w/Simmons in the same, broad 2nd tier, to include guys like Gobert, Irving, Randle, Williamson, Fox, Westbrook, Young, Middleton, Booker, Mitchell, Adebayo.... and, honestly, among the guards and wings I'd prefer any of them to Simmons come playoff time when the defenses and the intensity ratchet up.

I get the temptation to discount Simmons' performance as "1 bad playoff series." No. Shooting terribly while taking the shots would make for a bad series. Being so overwhelmed by the moment and the pressure that you refuse even to take the shots ... even with everyone talkin more about his non-shooting than about his terrible shooting - that's something else altogether. Poor kid was TERRIFIED. Didn't help that he also got torched defensively at times.

Because of his limitations, the lineup construction around Simmons is more constrained than for any other star non-big - and more constrained than for most star bigs. That's just not remotely the profile of a player I want my team to sell the farm for.
 
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