Trade Suggestion: Fox for Simmons + #28

So first off we should not include Fox or Hali
buddy and Bagley fits salary better, but not enough star power
Buddy and Barnes would be best two players Kings should offer
but they add 10mil over Simmons in salary
With Philly over the Lux cap already would they add 15mil in tax to get Barnes instead of Bagley? No
If they wait until Nov 6, they can send Danny Green 10m to balance salary
or they would have to dump his salary by deadline to avoid tax?

or

If Simmons a no show to camp, and Philly caves to Paul to move Maxey
Then Buddy,Bagley,Ramsey 3 unpro 1sts for Simmons,Maxey Matches salary

Best deal your gonna get Morey
(unless Dame changes his mind)
 
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I’m aware of what his flaws are. That doesn’t change the fact that he’s been ROY, a multiple time all-star and all-NBA defender. His 16/8 career averages and ability as a finisher support that he’s a 2-way player. He’s not just a defensive specialist. He’s not Ben Wallace or Dwight Howard. Neither of those guys could handle or create for others like Simmons can.

Simmons is more like a 6-11 version of a young Jason Kidd. A stud on both ends, but not a good shooter.

As for Philly’s motivations, they’ve been outlined already. It’s nowhere as simple as you’re trying to make it. Not only that, Simmons unwillingness to return there further complicates things.

The long and short is Simmons is being made into a scapegoat for Philly’s failures when they are far from all on him. Other players have underperformed. And they haven’t exactly put the right group of players together not have they used them correctly. For example, nobody in their right mind should have Joel Embiid out on the perimeter shooting 3’s. Yet the geniuses in Philly do exactly that.

And if Simmons lack of shooting is why he’s out there, that’s on Philly for putting together an incompatible mix

Like a lot of players that finally landed in the right situation with the right team, Simmons can most certainly be part of a title team.
I agree but do you agree he should be surrounded by shooters?
 
How does being entitled to an opinion disqualify you from being over-reactionary at the same time?

Of course you don’t believe you’re being over-reactionary. If you did, you probably wouldn’t do it.

I’m also entitled to an opinion and bailing on tickets because the franchise has the audacity to try to improve the team by obtaining an all-star caliber 2-way player is textbook over-reaction. Unless you are content with the team as is or want them to continue losing.
Yeah we just have different opinions on how we want that franchise to move forward and that’s fine lol. I don’t think picking a player that won’t want to be here is improving and will just ruin the culture/identity that Haliburton is trying to establish. This will probably not have the same outcome as Webber coming. Players just whine and get their way in today’s NBA. I also said I prefer to keep the 3 guards and figure it out from there.

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Carm dave seems to think Jeff Zillget is wrong and Embiid does want to run it back with Ben

I dont think "not everyone is built like that" comment is that bad

I think Morey is trying to get Embiid to at least appear to want Ben back, to get his leverage back to get
back to a position of strength.

It all comes down to what Ben does at start of Camp
Either Morey has time to run it back, hold out for Dame, or a big haul
Or Morey will have to do a Buddy,Bagley deal out of desperation

Tune in first week of Oct to see

Please Please Please Monty wait for the desperation trade or just do nothing
 
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Why?

Simmons has made more than enough $$$ already to able to make good on his threat. And his agent has a lot of power. He’s already talking about getting one of his other clients out of Philly.

Does Philly really want to go down that road?

We are in an era where players and agents have more power and leverage than ever before.

I don’t doubt Ben Simmons willingness to sit out to try to win this.

I remember when nobody thought Le‘Veon Bell would sit out an entire season. And that’s a sport with no guaranteed contract and lower salaries on the whole.
I don’t buy it because it essentially hasn’t been done in the modern NBA Era. Harden was the closest and he is a knucklehead. I don’t buy it because Morey isn’t trading Ben for pocket change. I say they work it out or the Sixers get a package they find acceptable
 
They're going to have to forge Simmons by fire. Let the fans let him hear it until he learns to overcome his vanity and let's it fly. I would tell klutch to go kick rocks along with other choice words b/c Ben is under contract and if he wants to play chicken hes going to be the one forfeiting those game checks.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
They're going to have to forge Simmons by fire. Let the fans let him hear it until he learns to overcome his vanity and let's it fly. I would tell klutch to go kick rocks along with other choice words b/c Ben is under contract and if he wants to play chicken hes going to be the one forfeiting those game checks.
NBA contracts are guaranteed so I’m pretty sure he’d be getting paid regardless.
 
So first off we should not include Fox or Hali
buddy and Bagley fits salary better, but not enough star power
Buddy and Barnes would be best two players Kings should offer
but they add 10mil over Simmons in salary
With Philly over the Lux cap already would they add 15mil in tax to get Barnes instead of Bagley? No
If they wait until Nov 6, they can send Danny Green 10m to balance salary
or they would have to dump his salary by deadline to avoid tax?

or

If Simmons a no show to camp, and Philly caves to Paul to move Maxey
Then Buddy,Bagley,Ramsey 3 unpro 1sts for Simmons,Maxey Matches salary

Best deal your gonna get Morey
(unless Dame changes his mind)
Three unprotected picks is too many. Philly doesn't have any leverage here. Rich Paul is doing his best to throw more fuel on the dumpster fire this has become. Philly would do good to take the best offer they have right now, which already isn't going to be that great, and run.
 
Even if he just doesn’t show up?
Yeah, I dunno if we've ever seen this before in the NBA, where a player under contract just decides to not show up and play because he doesn't want to. Harden almost got there and we've had teams just send dudes home until they could trade him. I assume he still gets paid, but the Sixers can probably fine him into oblivion until he reports.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
Yeah, I dunno if we've ever seen this before in the NBA, where a player under contract just decides to not show up and play because he doesn't want to. Harden almost got there and we've had teams just send dudes home until they could trade him. I assume he still gets paid, but the Sixers can probably fine him into oblivion until he reports.
Probably would have been better for Houston if Harden just didn’t show up instead of the absolute BS he pulled.
 
This is pretty much what I've been waiting for all offseason. Eventually Daryl Morey's very public attempts to extort a king's ransom for Ben Simmons were going to crash and burn right into the reality of Simmons' sinking trade value. And Morey's prolonging of these trade discussions by turning his nose up at every available offer was always going to have an alienating effect on Simmons, a player who, if I'm being charitable, is pretty introverted and obstinate. Whether or not Simmons would eventually demand a trade before the 2021-2022 season tips off remained an open question, of course, and now it has firmly been answered.

The fit between he and Embiid was always lousy. The organization doesn't appear to believe in Simmons anymore. The tension between the team and the player has been palpable. Morey had to know there was a chance that Simmons and Rich Paul were going to make this move, thereby tanking Simmons' value further. This now creates the most ripe environment for Monte McNair to be an opportunistic GM and snag a two-way all-star without having to sell off the farm.

Will it actually happen? Who knows. There will certainly be other suitors looking to buy low. Perhaps Portland and Philly finally make the CJ McCollum for Ben Simmons swap that many have long predicted. The Blazers need to do something before Damian Lillard officially tenders a trade demand of his own. But maybe the Kings, aggressive as they have apparently been this offseason, are able to swoop in while the Blazers dither about on the margins of their roster.

Then again, maybe Philly just stares down Ben Simmons and hopes that he blinks in the face of financial penalties and heaps of criticism. I don't know that doing so would actually improve their immediate championship outlook with Simmons on the roster, though, and I don't know that doing so would actually improve Simmons' trade value in any meaningful way. If teams hadn't yet been falling over themselves to offer Morey all-star caliber talent in exchange for Simmons, I have no idea why they would do so after the Sixers' leverage has evaporated now that an official Simmons trade demand is leaguewide knowledge.
 
This is pretty much what I've been waiting for all offseason. Eventually Daryl Morey's very public attempts to extort a king's ransom for Ben Simmons were going to crash and burn right into the reality of Simmons' sinking trade value. And Morey's prolonging of these trade discussions by turning his nose up at every available offer was always going to have an alienating effect on Simmons, a player who, if I'm being charitable, is pretty introverted and obstinate. Whether or not Simmons would eventually demand a trade before the 2021-2022 season tips off remained an open question, of course, and now it has firmly been answered.

The fit between he and Embiid was always lousy. The organization doesn't appear to believe in Simmons anymore. The tension between the team and the player has been palpable. Morey had to know there was a chance that Simmons and Rich Paul were going to make this move, thereby tanking Simmons' value further. This now creates the most ripe environment for Monte McNair to be an opportunistic GM and snag a two-way all-star without having to sell off the farm.

Will it actually happen? Who knows. There will certainly be other suitors looking to buy low. Perhaps Portland and Philly finally make the CJ McCollum for Ben Simmons swap that many have long predicted. The Blazers need to do something before Damian Lillard officially tenders a trade demand of his own. But maybe the Kings, aggressive as they have apparently been this offseason, are able to swoop in while the Blazers dither about on the margins of their roster.

Then again, maybe Philly just stares down Ben Simmons and hopes that he blinks in the face of financial penalties and heaps of criticism. I don't know that doing so would actually improve their immediate championship outlook with Simmons on the roster, though, and I don't know that doing so would actually improve Simmons' trade value in any meaningful way. If teams hadn't yet been falling over themselves to offer Morey all-star caliber talent in exchange for Simmons, I have no idea why they would do so after the Sixers' leverage has evaporated now that an official Simmons trade demand is leaguewide knowledge.
I think Morey is stubborn enough that he'd rather get nothing than "lose" a trade. Will be curious if he finally blinks. The main angle I could see pushing this to an end is if Embid expresses his frustration with the front office for letting this drag on. Losing Simmons for pennies on the dollar would be bad, ruining the organization's relationship with their MVP contender over this would be catastrophic.
 
Well, since this Schedule Thread has morphed into the Ben Simmons trade thread. Here is a bit of good news for Fox and Hali fans.

The Kings reportedly would not include either Fox or Hali in any potential Simmons trade. I think this is great news. I would much rather throw in an extra 1st round (top 5 protected pick) than trade away one of our cornerstone backcourt player for Simmons. Maybe Monte can pull off a Buddy, Bagley and 2 (maybe 3) 1st round (protected) picks for Simmons?

https://sports.yahoo.com/kings-reportedly-not-put-fox-140040076.html?src=rss

I would plug in Simmons in at Small Forward/Point Forward and move Harrison Barnes over to Power Forward. The Kings would have a pretty stacked starting 5, the 3 point shooting/spacing would be lacking unless Hali becomes a high volume 3 point shooter though.
 
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Well, since this Schedule Thread has morphed into the Ben Simmons trade thread. Here is a bit of good news for Fox and Hali fans.

The Kings reportedly would not include either Fox or Hali in any potential Simmons trade. I think this is great news. I would much rather throw in an extra 1st round (top 5 protected pick) than trade away one of our cornerstone backcourt player for Simmons. Maybe Monte can pull off a Buddy, Bagley and 2 (maybe 3) 1st round (protected) picks for Simmons?

https://sports.yahoo.com/kings-reportedly-not-put-fox-140040076.html?src=rss

I would plug in Simmons in at Small Forward/Point Forward and move Harrison Barnes over to Power Forward. The Kings would have a pretty stacked starting 5, the 3 point shooting/spacing would be lacking unless Hali becomes a high volume 3 point shooter though.
so I’m curious what your rotations would look like since a Fox, Mitchell, Holmes, Simmons line-up is virtually unplayable in my opinion.
 
I think Morey is stubborn enough that he'd rather get nothing than "lose" a trade. Will be curious if he finally blinks. The main angle I could see pushing this to an end is if Embid expresses his frustration with the front office for letting this drag on. Losing Simmons for pennies on the dollar would be bad, ruining the organization's relationship with their MVP contender over this would be catastrophic.
I agree that it would be catastrophic if Embiid sours on Philly as a result of the Simmons drama. But even if Embiid maintains loyalty to the franchise that drafted him, Morey has to be thinking practically about the 76ers' title window. With Embiid's troubling injury history and the generally brief "prime" for legitimate big men in an increasingly fast-paced league, the Sixers' window to contend is likely to be short-lived, and it could be mercilessly truncated at any time if Embiid takes even one wrong step in a given season (I'm having traumatizing flashbacks to 2003 right now, and Chris Webber was not half the injury risk that Embiid currently is).

All of that said, my assumption is that Morey's stubbornness will be outweighed by the franchise's ultimate sense of urgency. They can't waste a season of Embiid's prime sorting through the Ben Simmons mess, especially if he does hold out when training camp arrives. Assuming full health, the Nets are going to be a monstrous road block on the way to the Finals, and the Bucks will no doubt be eager to defend the title. If the 76ers have any hope of reaching the Finals and winning an NBA championship, they need to think about what Embiid requires around him in order to best maximize his gifts. Among other things, they could really use more shooting, and right now, trading Ben Simmons is the easiest way to get it.
 
Three unprotected picks is too many. Philly doesn't have any leverage here. Rich Paul is doing his best to throw more fuel on the dumpster fire this has become. Philly would do good to take the best offer they have right now, which already isn't going to be that great, and run.
Yeah maybe 3 unprot picks are too many
Maybe 1 2022 unprot pick and a 2026 top ten prot pick works for me
But Morey has been asking for all-star player and like 4 picks/Swaps
buddy/Bagley are far from all-stars, Buddy has big contract
Morey does have to come down on his price, but my guess he could do better than 1.5 starting non all-stars and 1.5 1sts
from many other teams

Without Fox or Hali we have to send some serious draft capital
 
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Yeah maybe 3 unprot picks are too many
Maybe 1 2022 unprot pick and a 2026 top ten prot pick works for me
But Morey has been asking for all-star player and like 4 picks/Swaps
buddy/Bagley are far from all-stars, Buddy has big contract
Morey does have to come down on his price, but my guess he could do better than 1.5 starting non all-stars and 1.5 1sts
from many other teams
You're very likely correct. But it's also possible that Morey ultimately can't do much better than that, or at least not much better than that. It's easy enough to look at every team's roster and draft pick situation around the league and determine that a dozen front offices could line up better offers. But there's a reason that the vast majority of GM's who are forced to trade their all-stars don't receive very good value in return. Often they're not bargaining from a position of strength, and often it's difficult to find the right deal with the right team at the right time.
 
so I’m curious what your rotations would look like since a Fox, Mitchell, Holmes, Simmons line-up is virtually unplayable in my opinion.
That would be tough spacing wise.

But we would have to bank on Fox improving his 3 point shot (possible) and Hali becoming a good high volume 3 point shooter (probable), and Barnes remains solid from 3 (likely). If Simmons starts at SF, Mitchell would need to come off the bench and rotate in when Simmons goes to the bench.
 
so I’m curious what your rotations would look like since a Fox, Mitchell, Holmes, Simmons line-up is virtually unplayable in my opinion.
Personally, I think you've gotta play Simmons at the 5 and bring Holmes and Mitchell off the bench. That's likely way too radical of an idea for the Kings to get behind (especially after re-signing Holmes under the pretense of his presence in the starting unit), but I think you've got the potential for a legit Death Lineup with Fox and Hali at 1 and 2 and Simmons at 5. That said, I do think it's pretty essential to hold onto Haliburton in this equation. If Hield/Barnes/pick(s) gets it done, then it could conceivably look like this:

Fox
Haliburton
??
??
Simmons

Mitchell
Holmes

Those question marks are a sizable problem, obviously. If you can hold onto Fox, Hali, and Barnes in a trade for Simmons, then that's just the biggest magic trick any GM will have pulled off in recent NBA history. Barnes slots into the 4 spot and you're well on your way to an absolutely earth-scorching Death Lineup, with a couple of gutsy fellas who have big time motors as your first calls off the bench.

Sadly, something like Hield/Bagley/picks isn't getting that trade done, as much as I'd want it to be so. Philly's going to ask for Barnes, so the Kings would have some problematic holes to fill in my proposed starting lineup. You can't just go and pluck a starting caliber 3 and a starting caliber 4 off the scrap heap at this stage of the offseason, especially since both of those hypothetical players would need to be passable shooters in a lineup with Fox and Simmons. And I honestly don't know where you find them.

However, I do think that hypothetical 3 and that hypothetical 4 are easier to find than a defensively monstrous playmaking wing who's simply devastating on the break. Fox/Hali/Simmons instantly becomes the most fun and dangerous fast break in the entire NBA (provided Walton allows them to play at a pace suitable for their talents). I think it's worth taking the shot and sorting out the fit issues later. You don't have to complete the rebuild overnight, after all. You've got your core pieces locked into contracts in the first half of their 20's, so you probably suffer through the difficulties of awkward starting lineups at the jump until you track down the pieces that allow you to eventually unlock the lineup's full potential.
 
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I think Morey is stubborn enough that he'd rather get nothing than "lose" a trade. Will be curious if he finally blinks.
There’s more at stake than losing a trade.

Morey has already irked super agent Rich Paul, who is reportedly working to get another client of his, Tyrese Maxey, out of Philly too.

If that bridge is permanently burned, that could hurt Philly a lot more than just one trade involving Ben Simmons.

As was said earlier, these players and agents have so much more power than ever before. Philly not being able to acquire or sign Klutch Sports clients could hurt much, much worse going forward.

I get wanting to dig heels in and fight not to get ripped off. But at what cost?

Morey and Co. created their own problem in how they’ve handled the situation. Cutting their losses now might be the best thing. Being prideful and not wanting to lose in this trade just might result in a much larger degree of losing.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
so I’m curious what your rotations would look like since a Fox, Mitchell, Holmes, Simmons line-up is virtually unplayable in my opinion.
On the assumption that we traded Buddy/Barnes for Simmons, I think my rotations (with minutes) would look somewhat like:

Starters:
35 Fox
35 Haliburton
35 Simmons
25 Bagley
30 Holmes

Bench:
25 Mitchell
15 Davis
20 Harkless
20 Metu

with everybody else getting spot/situational minutes. I don't think spacing is a huge issue for that starting lineup - Haliburton was obviously a good shooter last year, Fox's numbers are looking up, and Bagley hit .413 from the corner three and .343 overall. On the bench, we would have to hope that Mitchell's senior year 3P% holds close to true - Davis can shoot and even Metu has shown some promise. But spacing is OK.

Adding Simmons and Mitchell would drastically improve the defense, even before accounting for the Rub-Off-Off-Night factor. I'd definitely roll the dice on that team. I don't want to give up three firsts to make it happen, but yeah, I'm pretty sure that's at least a .500 team.
 
Theoretically Simmons doesn't really have any leverage here given that he's signed for 4 more seasons. But in reality, when star players want out they find a way to get out.

Harden didn't show up on time, then showed up out of shape and being disrespectful towards his Rockets teammates.

Jimmy Butler asked the Timberwolves for a trade and held himself out of practice during training camp until it happened. When management finally told him he had to practice he went in with the third string team and apparently dominated practice while trash talking KAT, the other starters, Thibs and front office folks.

A team may hold all the leverage, but time and time again we see that if the player is unhappy enough, he'll end up getting moved. Add in the Rich Paul angle and I don't see Morey trying to force the issue.

Speaking of Butler, that raises my biggest concern with Simmons. How do you actually build a winning team around him?

I mention Butler only because apparently part of him leaving the Sixers for Miami was Ben Simmons displeasure at having him take over more of the ball handling duties.

Ben Simmons is still just 25 but is a 3x all-star, 2x all-defensive first teamer, and both led the league in steals and made third team all-NBA in 2019-2020. He's a huge, very athletic PG who can guard 1-5 most nights.

At the same time, who do you put around him to create a championship team? Most teams today are looking for multiple ball handlers and playmakers but as soon as you take the ball out of Simmons' hands he's essentially useless on offense unless his defender is oblivious enough to let him cut to the basket or establish deep post position. Do you follow the Giannis model of just putting 3&D guys everywhere including center? Even then, Simmons lacks Antetokounmpo's unstoppable ability to get to the basket.

I've argued that Simmons would be better in a Draymond Green role defending PFs (and sometimes Cs) and being a secondary ballhandler and creator. But I don't see him accepting that role. And even then, Draymond isn't a great shooter but at least he's a willing one and a threat.

Ben Simmons has done remarkably well in the NBA for a non-shooter. But he's a tough centerpiece to build around. You can argue that Embiid isn't an ideal 2nd star to put next to him, but honestly which star in the NBA would be an ideal fit with Simmons?

I could understand the rationale of a Fox for Simmons swap and in the short term the team would likely be better but he's a tough player to build around.