Trade Rudy for ?

CelticsFan said:
I appreciate where you're coming from but still disagree.

You could make the argument Payton is better then Collison today. Payton is still 22 and under the teams control for two more seasons, then he's a RFA. Vucevic is under contract for a very reasonable 12.5 million next year and the year after. Thats's what the Kings pay Afflalo! IMO it would be foolish on Orlando's part to make this trade.

WCS for Super Mario straight up works. I could see both teams wanting to take a chance on each others disappointing players.
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Whether the trade gets done or not is really not the issue but it seems to me that you are not up to date with the developments in Orlando. Both Vucevic and Payton have lost their starting jobs and are reportedly out of favor with the new coach and are getting shopped. Now it doesn't mean that all of a sudden they are getting shipped to the Kings but it means they are very much available and Orlando is a team that is looking to jump start things a bit.

They lack a genuine scorer and are obviously after something different at PG than what Payton offers.

Having said all that, I highly doubt that Sacramento would be interested in either. Vucevic and Cousins pairing would be disastrous defensively and for a team looking to build it's identify on defense I am pretty sure this would be a big NO-NO! Secondly, the offense we are running is more suited to a PG that can shoot the deep ball and have the ability to play off the ball. Both are traits that Payton does not have. From the perspective of type of PG that we would be more interested in, Payne is much closer to the type of PG that this team would be interested in than Payton is.
 
Čarolija said:
Whether the trade gets done or not is really not the issue but it seems to me that you are not up to date with the developments in Orlando. Both Vucevic and Payton have lost their starting jobs and are reportedly out of favor with the new coach and are getting shopped. Now it doesn't mean that all of a sudden they are getting shipped to the Kings but it means they are very much available and Orlando is a team that is looking to jump start things a bit.
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I never said they weren't available I said the trade would never happen that was proposed. I expect the Magic to make a move before the deadline just not their young players for rentals.
 
chief bromden said:
I don't think Orlando would do this, but maybe they would so they could have a end of the game/crunch time scorer (trying not to laugh as Rudy dribbles off his leg with 5 seconds left),

Trade Rudy for Ibaka straight up, both on expiring deals. Both unlikely to resign with their team. Orlando being Orlando already mitigates the Rudy effect of making teams worse, and could set up the Rudy bump for when he leaves (and they get a 'scorer').

Kings get a 3&D guy that makes sense next to Cousins, frees them up to trade Koufos+whoever for a PG.
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Ibaka has arguably been Orlando's best player.

To add onto this, they traded Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis away for Ibaka... I highly doubt that they turn around and throw him away for free.
 
Another option worth exploring could be Atlanta's K. Bazemore. I know he's struggling this season and has a large contract but he could fit better here as well as Rudy for them. In terms of value I would say it's fair assuming Atlanta doesn't blow it up and trade their stars. Yes I'm aware we have two SG's coming in next season but we could still use some stability there and Bazemore can also slide to the 3 in today's NBA.
 
ockingsfan said:
If Atlanta can get a first round pick (protected) from the Cavs for a 35 year old Kyle Korver on an ending contract, the Kings should definitely be able to get something of value, ie. Cameron Payne or a future 1st round pick for Rudy.
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I think that a return on the lines of Payne or a non-lottery first is not only entirely within the realm of possibility, but barring a return at least that good, why trade him? Obviously we would be trading him to a team that not only intends to make the playoffs this year, but who intends to compete. And Rudy would be a big piece for a competitor. You've got to give something to get something. We don't have a need to trade him, so if the best offer we can get is a second round pick and bad contract in return, why bother?
 
Capt. Factorial said:
I think that a return on the lines of Payne or a non-lottery first is not only entirely within the realm of possibility, but barring a return at least that good, why trade him? Obviously we would be trading him to a team that not only intends to make the playoffs this year, but who intends to compete. And Rudy would be a big piece for a competitor. You've got to give something to get something. We don't have a need to trade him, so if the best offer we can get is a second round pick and bad contract in return, why bother?
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Because we would get nothing, if we dont trade him. And because no contender actually needs Rudy as much as they need another floor spacer and elite shooter like Korver.
 
ockingsfan said:
If Atlanta can get a first round pick (protected) from the Cavs for a 35 year old Kyle Korver on an ending contract, the Kings should definitely be able to get something of value, ie. Cameron Payne or a future 1st round pick for Rudy.
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No that's not how it works imo, Rudy is going to command a massive deal next year where as Korver/Markieff Morris/Bellenli are on small $$ deals (Kef is on a long term deal) which means they are minor pieces in terms of contracts.

To me the Thunder would have to be stupid to trade for Rudy if they give us Payne (who looked really good in his 1st game back) when they could get way cheaper contracts in return on a longer term deal like a Wilson Chandler (Denver could actually use another PG). With what Rudy makes and with what the likes of Solomon Hill got this past season he's going to take a huge chunk out of your salary next year for a guy in his 30's and declining. If the Kings can get a 1st rounder for him than Vlade's done a wonderful job.

Unless Rudy is putting a team over the top there is legit zero reason to give any meaningful asset for him in particular due to his past (every team improving when he leaves) and all his lack of effort type flaws. The only way Rudy becomes an asset is if you package him with WCS/Skal/Papa/Richardson where the team gets a expiring deal to go with one of our youngins .
 
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KingsFanGER said:
Because we would get nothing, if we dont trade him. And because no contender actually needs Rudy as much as they need another floor spacer and elite shooter like Korver.
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I tend to agree with you as it applies to most teams. OKC is an exception as Rudy's excellent post game would fit in well with their current roster IMO. I think the Rudy for Payne deal is good for both teams.
 
KingsFanGER said:
Because we would get nothing, if we dont trade him. And because no contender actually needs Rudy as much as they need another floor spacer and elite shooter like Korver.
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To address the second point first, Kyle Korver isn't available anymore, is he? Rudy is one of the top names on the market right now, and while he is not an elite shooter, he is a good shooter and has a lot more in his offensive arsenal than Korver. We should expect a similar return.

To the first point, sometimes you get nothing. Sometimes, in fact a lot of times, that's the way it works. Right now we are also looking at losing players like Darren Collison and Ty Lawson and Omri Casspi (who is not even playing) but nobody seems to be suggesting that we send those guys off for a second-round pick and nothing. The reason that the general consensus here is that we should trade Rudy is that the general feeling is that we will get good value in return - something that will actually help us down the road. For instance, reports that we had the framework of a deal for Payne in place before he was hurt tell us that teams are in fact willing to give something good for an expiring Rudy. But at the same time, we have to hold out for a reasonable deal. There must be a value line below which we will not go, and while I'm not certain exactly where that line is, a second-round pick and nothing is easily far below that value line. If teams decline to make a value offer and we buckle at the deadline and panic-trade Rudy for a second-round pick and nothing, no opposing GM will ever take Vlade seriously in the trade game again. They will know that all you have to do is wait the Kings out and the Kings will buckle. And our reward for giving the league ammunition against us in every future trade is a second-round pick? That's not worth it. Any return below the value line, we must say no. And we say no not because a tiny return is not better than no return, but because ensuring that we are not walked all over in all future negotiations is better than a tiny return.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
To address the second point first, Kyle Korver isn't available anymore, is he? Rudy is one of the top names on the market right now, and while he is not an elite shooter, he is a good shooter and has a lot more in his offensive arsenal than Korver. We should expect a similar return.

To the first point, sometimes you get nothing. Sometimes, in fact a lot of times, that's the way it works. Right now we are also looking at losing players like Darren Collison and Ty Lawson and Omri Casspi (who is not even playing) but nobody seems to be suggesting that we send those guys off for a second-round pick and nothing. The reason that the general consensus here is that we should trade Rudy is that the general feeling is that we will get good value in return - something that will actually help us down the road. For instance, reports that we had the framework of a deal for Payne in place before he was hurt tell us that teams are in fact willing to give something good for an expiring Rudy. But at the same time, we have to hold out for a reasonable deal. There must be a value line below which we will not go, and while I'm not certain exactly where that line is, a second-round pick and nothing is easily far below that value line. If teams decline to make a value offer and we buckle at the deadline and panic-trade Rudy for a second-round pick and nothing, no opposing GM will ever take Vlade seriously in the trade game again. They will know that all you have to do is wait the Kings out and the Kings will buckle. And our reward for giving the league ammunition against us in every future trade is a second-round pick? That's not worth it. Any return below the value line, we must say no. And we say no not because a tiny return is not better than no return, but because ensuring that we are not walked all over in all future negotiations is better than a tiny return.
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I do believe that is one of the handicaps that Vlade is dealing with. He's a GM with a little over one year experience in charge of a team that has been dysfunctional for the good part of a decade. One of his earliest moves his trade with Philadelphia was widely mocked. Why wouldn't another GM think that he isn't there for the fleecing?

I suspect and hope that many are proven wrong (in terms of the pundits). He will probably surprise a number of people before it's all over.
 
whozit said:
I do believe that is one of the handicaps that Vlade is dealing with. He's a GM with a little over one year experience in charge of a team that has been dysfunctional for the good part of a decade. One of his earliest moves his trade with Philadelphia was widely mocked. Why wouldn't another GM think that he isn't there for the fleecing?

I suspect and hope that many are proven wrong (in terms of the pundits). He will probably surprise a number of people before it's all over.
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Well, the next couple of trades he made (the 2016 draft trades) were pretty favorable to the Kings. Getting a #22 for dumping Belli would be hard to criticize, and turning a #8 into the #13, the #28, AND the rights to one of the best young players in Europe looks pretty good to me too. (I'm not yet sure either way about the PapaG pick at #13, but in principle the return was pretty good.)

I figure we're about one good return for Gay (or one hard-line refusal to take a bad return) from the league having to conclude Vlade isn't a pushover.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
Well, the next couple of trades he made (the 2016 draft trades) were pretty favorable to the Kings. Getting a #22 for dumping Belli would be hard to criticize, and turning a #8 into the #13, the #28, AND the rights to one of the best young players in Europe looks pretty good to me too. (I'm not yet sure either way about the PapaG pick at #13, but in principle the return was pretty good.)

I figure we're about one good return for Gay (or one hard-line refusal to take a bad return) from the league having to conclude Vlade isn't a pushover.
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Way to early to judge that trade. What I don't like was the philly trade. He really botched that one and it will haunt us for awhile.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
Well, the next couple of trades he made (the 2016 draft trades) were pretty favorable to the Kings. Getting a #22 for dumping Belli would be hard to criticize, and turning a #8 into the #13, the #28, AND the rights to one of the best young players in Europe looks pretty good to me too. (I'm not yet sure either way about the PapaG pick at #13, but in principle the return was pretty good.)

I figure we're about one good return for Gay (or one hard-line refusal to take a bad return) from the league having to conclude Vlade isn't a pushover.
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I agree. I believe the Philly trade will come down to who Philadelphia gets with the Kings pick 'cause so far it hasn't hurt. I also suspect that his refusal to be a pushover is why a trade didn't happen last year at the trade deadline.
 
Lopes said:
Way to early to judge that trade. What I don't like was the philly trade. He really botched that one and it will haunt us for awhile.
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It's not too early to judge the trade in the sense that I am - treating the assets in terms of draft picks (in terms of how hard of a bargain Vlade drove, in other words) and not in terms of who was drafted with those draft picks. We turned #8 into #13, #28, and Bogdan. In other words, Phoenix paid a late first rounder AND the rights to a great young player who would probably have been taken top-ten if he were in the 2016 draft to move up five spots. They paid a lot.

We will have to wait to see how PapaG, Skal, Bogdan and Chriss turn out in order to assess the final impact of the trade. But in terms of trade negotiations, Vlade certainly does not come out a pushover in this deal - if anything Phoenix does.
 
My readings on Vlade from guys like Kyler is that Sac/Vlade are difficult in talks in the fact that they are willing to engage but they don't act on things. The way I interpret that is that other teams want our guys for crapty offers....especially in regards to Cousins. I mean everybody keeps expecting/believing that Sac should trade Cousins and Vlade has set the bar on what it would take which is a probably not a deal involving risky draft picks and young unproven players.... That's hardly a pushover.

And that Philly trade narrative by people who want to mirror the national media as a botched trade by Vlade......yeah, I don't subsribe to that narrative.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
It's not too early to judge the trade in the sense that I am - treating the assets in terms of draft picks (in terms of how hard of a bargain Vlade drove, in other words) and not in terms of who was drafted with those draft picks. We turned #8 into #13, #28, and Bogdan. In other words, Phoenix paid a late first rounder AND the rights to a great young player who would probably have been taken top-ten if he were in the 2016 draft to move up five spots. They paid a lot.

We will have to wait to see how PapaG, Skal, Bogdan and Chriss turn out in order to assess the final impact of the trade. But in terms of trade negotiations, Vlade certainly does not come out a pushover in this deal - if anything Phoenix does.
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I wouldn't say he was a pushover in that deal. Unless of course it is known that bogdan is unlikely to come over. But the 76ers deal for sure
 
Lopes said:
I wouldn't say he was a pushover in that deal. Unless of course it is known that bogdan is unlikely to come over. But the 76ers deal for sure
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So, you are GM and inherit a team of one very good player (Cuz) and one and a half solid player (Rudy and Collison) and bunch of ...

What would be your non-fleecing price to have a chance to do any changes by getting rid of 3 dead weight players and getting 15 mil back?

One pick in a range 10-20 does not sound like fleecing to me, but would like to hear your estimate.
 
andjel said:
So, you are GM and inherit a team of one very good player (Cuz) and one and a half solid player (Rudy and Collison) and bunch of ...

What would be your non-fleecing price to have a chance to do any changes by getting rid of 3 dead weight players and getting 15 mil back?

One pick in a range 10-20 does not sound like fleecing to me, but would like to hear your estimate.
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We could have used the stretch provision for one. 2nd when we give up our draft pick the year after next it's really gonna hurt if it's unprotected
 
Lopes said:
We could have used the stretch provision for one. 2nd when we give up our draft pick the year after next it's really gonna hurt if it's unprotected
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First of all, just to make clear, we are talking about the third draft from now where Philly will get the pick (2019). Nothing shortly here.
Nobody can know if it will really going to hurt us and where the pick will be in two and a half seasons.

Divac gave himself window of 4 years to turn things around and the place of that pick will tell the story if he was successful or not.
The trade allowed him to start with the relatively clean slate.
Just looking at the overall moves regarding draft picks, from the folks acquired last offseason thanks to that trade (KK/Rondo/Belli), we already got an extra first round pick (22nd, Malachi).

Regarding stretch provision, doubt that Vivek would ok throwing 15 mil away and still have less flexibility.
 
Wait, I thought this was the trade Rudy topic. Why are we still taking about the Sixers trade here? We're just short of playoff pace right now and Rudy is about to be a former King in a few months. This topic is more relevant than ever. Can't we just talk about how we're going to get better instead of lamenting the past endlessly?
 
Capt. Factorial said:
To address the second point first, Kyle Korver isn't available anymore, is he? Rudy is one of the top names on the market right now, and while he is not an elite shooter, he is a good shooter and has a lot more in his offensive arsenal than Korver. We should expect a similar return.

To the first point, sometimes you get nothing. Sometimes, in fact a lot of times, that's the way it works. Right now we are also looking at losing players like Darren Collison and Ty Lawson and Omri Casspi (who is not even playing) but nobody seems to be suggesting that we send those guys off for a second-round pick and nothing. The reason that the general consensus here is that we should trade Rudy is that the general feeling is that we will get good value in return - something that will actually help us down the road. For instance, reports that we had the framework of a deal for Payne in place before he was hurt tell us that teams are in fact willing to give something good for an expiring Rudy. But at the same time, we have to hold out for a reasonable deal. There must be a value line below which we will not go, and while I'm not certain exactly where that line is, a second-round pick and nothing is easily far below that value line. If teams decline to make a value offer and we buckle at the deadline and panic-trade Rudy for a second-round pick and nothing, no opposing GM will ever take Vlade seriously in the trade game again. They will know that all you have to do is wait the Kings out and the Kings will buckle. And our reward for giving the league ammunition against us in every future trade is a second-round pick? That's not worth it. Any return below the value line, we must say no. And we say no not because a tiny return is not better than no return, but because ensuring that we are not walked all over in all future negotiations is better than a tiny return.
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Yes Korver isn't available anymore, but still Rudy's skillset isn't really what the upper echolon teams are looking for. Rudy is at 33% from 3 this season, which makes him a below average shooter from 3. Of course Rudy is one of the best overall packages available at SF right now, but he is a pure scorer and a guy, who wants the ball in his hands and who wants the ball in the mid range and paint area.
Now every team currently in the playoffs ranks has either a great starting PG (Cavs, Raptors, Celtics, Hawks, Pacers, Hornets, Wizards, Warriors, Rockets, Clippers, Grizzlies, Thunder, Blazers) or a SF able to create offense for his teammates (Pacers, Spurs, Jazz). There is no need in the starting lineup for Rudy, because they want the space in the mid range and paint area open for their guards to penetrate and kickout. You could make a case for Rudy as a bench scorer, but this means the offensive schemes would change entirely for the team from pick&rolls and kickouts to mid range ISO and post ups. We also have to keep him mind, that teams tend to play their stars more minutes in the postseason, which means less time for Rudy to play his brand of basketball. He simply isn't a great fit for most starting lineups in the league and most teams will most likely be hesitant to trade for him strictly as the offensive ISO spark plug off the bench, because this will make their offensive schemes somewhat obsolete and we have to keep in mind, that Rudy will still demand a lot of money next offseason.
I think Rudy is in a very similar spot like Greg Monroe right now - an extremely talented player, but because his game is a bit outdated and because he is not a lockdown defender most teams will be hesitant to give up valuable assets for him. This atleast is as long as he views himself mainly as a SF. I can envision Rudy on some teams as a small ball PF, but he has to play tougher and defend more willingly to be good in that role.


To go into the season with that many expiring contracts was a mistake from the beginning. We are one of the least talented teams in the league right now and only half way decent, because DMC is keeping us afloat. Wether it's DC or Rudy or Casspi - letting talent walk for nothing is not a good thing to do and will hurt Vlade's reputation far more, than making low value deals (I agree, that a mere second round pick is out of the discussion but I woulnd't rule out a struggling young talent or something similar. We can't think only about this season, but must keep 2017/18 in mind). Vlade has brought this onto himself. He wanted a team with a lot of short term deals. The risk of this kind of strategy was always obvious.
 
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