To Trade or not to Trade

[Vlade4GM]

it's amazing sometimes to come on this forum and see how picky some people are. OP is asking hypothetically if we should trade our #1 pick and filler for melo. yes griffin is considered the top pick by most, but he's in what some call weakest drafts in awhile. whereas anthony is probably a top 5 player from one of the best drafts. we are the worst team in the nba, yet an nba all star, 2 time all nba team, US olympian is not good enough to play on our team? the kid is only 24, he'll make some mistakes, but i cant be too hard on a player that refuses to leave the court if hes hot or the team is coming back (im not sure the reason why he refused). id be more prone to fault him if he refused to come into a game.

It's not as black and white as who is better, Griffin/Rubio/whatever or Melo. When you trade for Melo you make a commitment to a large percentage of your cap to one player, and that means that player has to be someone you can build around and rely on.

 

[steelevt]

i understand your point that its not black and white. i know that melo will come with baggage, but here's the thing. beggers cant be choosers. we are the worst team in the league and we are not a big market city. sometimes that has to be taken into consideration. we are not going to get a lebron, wade or kobe. but if we brought in a player of anthony's caliber, i can see more players getting excited to play with him as opposed to a rookie. (ie iverson wanting to play with him) i guess the main thought that i have for this team is, we cant just depend on the draft. every year there are top 10 or top 5 picks that have busts. i personally feel more comfortable getting a proven nba player to anchor us as opposed to depending too much on an unknown through the draft.

 

[Kings Faithful]

i understand your point that its not black and white. i know that melo will come with baggage, but here's the thing. beggers cant be choosers. we are the worst team in the league and we are not a big market city. sometimes that has to be taken into consideration. we are not going to get a lebron, wade or kobe. but if we brought in a player of anthony's caliber, i can see more players getting excited to play with him as opposed to a rookie. (ie iverson wanting to play with him) i guess the main thought that i have for this team is, we cant just depend on the draft. every year there are top 10 or top 5 picks that have busts. i personally feel more comfortable getting a proven nba player to anchor us as opposed to depending too much on an unknown through the draft.

I actually agree with this. If drafting Griffin leads to the opportunity of trading for Melo or another star of that caliber I'm all for it.

 

[VF21]

it's amazing sometimes to come on this forum and see how picky some people are. OP is asking hypothetically if we should trade our #1 pick and filler for melo. yes griffin is considered the top pick by most, but he's in what some call weakest drafts in awhile. whereas anthony is probably a top 5 player from one of the best drafts. we are the worst team in the nba, yet an nba all star, 2 time all nba team, US olympian is not good enough to play on our team? the kid is only 24, he'll make some mistakes, but i cant be too hard on a player that refuses to leave the court if hes hot or the team is coming back (im not sure the reason why he refused). id be more prone to fault him if he refused to come into a game.

We're not the ones actually making the calls and signing the contracts so speaking hypothetically I think we can pretty much be as picky as we like.

As far as "the kid is only 24," there's an old saying: "To whom much is given, much is expected"... Melo has been given a lot; I personally don't think it's too much to expect him to grow up and follow the rules. A player who refuses to leave the court (remember Artest?) is NOT a team player, he's an egotist who thinks he knows better than the coach who is being paid to ... well, COACH.

It's not a case of either/or. He should NOT have shown total disrespect to George Karl and, to compound it, he definitely shouldn't have whined about it in public to try and get people to take sides. Melo is a spoiled brat who has never lived up to his initial hype - remember, the stuff where it was said he'd make LeBron James look mediocre?

 

[Prince_XY]

I've read all the posts and I have concluded that it is a fallacy to insinuate that the TRADITION of the Kings is to stay away from players with problems of reputation.

Ron Artest, Bonzi Wells, Jason Williams, Vernon Maxwell, and oh...don't forget the greatest Kings of them all - Chris Webber. So, this only shows the Kings has no real tradition regarding staying away from players with bad reputation.

Carmelo Anthony would be a big gamble at his price, but nevertheless a very good gamble even if we consider his bad reputation. He is young, a very good and capable player who plays to win, and who maybe twice the worth of Martin in terms of talent.

If I can call the shots, I probably will gamble away our lottery pick plus Martin.

 

[Vlade4GM]

i understand your point that its not black and white. i know that melo will come with baggage, but here's the thing. beggers cant be choosers. we are the worst team in the league and we are not a big market city. sometimes that has to be taken into consideration. we are not going to get a lebron, wade or kobe. but if we brought in a player of anthony's caliber, i can see more players getting excited to play with him as opposed to a rookie. (ie iverson wanting to play with him) i guess the main thought that i have for this team is, we cant just depend on the draft. every year there are top 10 or top 5 picks that have busts. i personally feel more comfortable getting a proven nba player to anchor us as opposed to depending too much on an unknown through the draft.

Yes, but if we trade for Anthony how are we going to bring in those hypothetical players that want to play with him? We're not going to have the cap space to do it at that point.

The reason why draft picks (despite the risk of not knowing exactly what you're getting) are so valuable to rebuilding teams is because you have them on a rookie deal for 4 years, and they're a restricted FA after that.

As we've seen so far from Anthony, he couldn't really hack it as a no.1/go-to guy. Personally, I think he has the tools to do it, but is simply too selfish and immature of a player to take that next step as a playmaker/finisher/defender. You trade a pick for him, you're making a big commitment to this guy and if you strike out you end up in a big hole. Not only do you spend your draft pick on him (and who knows what else) but you take yourself to the back end of the lottery next year. Anthony is not a franchise player. You say beggars can't be choosers, but I ask why the F are we beggars? We're a team trying to win a championship down the line and being a "beggar" doesn't help that, it will only hurt it in a pointless attempt to get some more regular season wins and maybe crack a .500 record while selling out our long term hopes.

 

[Kings Faithful]

If I can call the shots, I probably will gamble away our lottery pick plus Martin.

Although i agreed with your assessment, giving away a possible #1 pick plus Martin is too much for Melo...

 

[steelevt]

Yes, but if we trade for Anthony how are we going to bring in those hypothetical players that want to play with him? We're not going to have the cap space to do it at that point.

The reason why draft picks (despite the risk of not knowing exactly what you're getting) are so valuable to rebuilding teams is because you have them on a rookie deal for 4 years, and they're a restricted FA after that.

As we've seen so far from Anthony, he couldn't really hack it as a no.1/go-to guy. Personally, I think he has the tools to do it, but is simply too selfish and immature of a player to take that next step as a playmaker/finisher/defender. You trade a pick for him, you're making a big commitment to this guy and if you strike out you end up in a big hole. Not only do you spend your draft pick on him (and who knows what else) but you take yourself to the back end of the lottery next year. Anthony is not a franchise player. You say beggars can't be choosers, but I ask why the F are we beggars? We're a team trying to win a championship down the line and being a "beggar" doesn't help that, it will only hurt it in a pointless attempt to get some more regular season wins and maybe crack a .500 record while selling out our long term hopes.

the whole thread was thought up hypothetically and i believe the OP didnt think about contracts or anything when he posed the question. (since i believe he proposed the pick plus kt or something which doesnt really match up). so i just assumed the question was would we give up our #1 draft pick for a player with melo's skill + possible baggage if contracts etc werent an issue. in reality, there are so many restrictions that would keep us from getting a player of that caliber (contracts, capspace, location). to answer the op, i believe that i would risk that pick for melo or a player as good as melo, but i know in reality its not possible since theres no way we could afford him without giving up a huge chunk of our capspace. but most of the other poster just brought up the fact they didnt like his attitude or whatever and that is why they'd pass on him. i believe you are one of the few posters that brought up a problem that i feel would not allow us to go through with the trade, his contract.

now to answer a few questions. if we were to have a few all-stars on our team and have a real chance at getting a title, players would be more willing to come here for possibly less money, similar to what payton and malone did in LA, or the players waive recently going to boston, SA, or cleveland for the vets min. i know we are far from getting to that point, but that was the point of my reasoning. other examples would be gilbert arenas took a paycut (even though he's still overpaid) to keep the core of him, jamison and butler together. brand was supposed to take a paycut to get baron davis down in LA. i see your point that melo's specific contract would really hinder us from getting another great player since his contract is like 15-18 million a season for the next few years and we already have alot/too much invested in kmart/beno/garcia, but my thought process was that the better the players we get, the more willing we could attract other good players considering we aren't a big market.

why are we beggars? because we are a small market team, last place in the nba, and we arent really a destination that most players are dying to play for. the only way i see us getting back to the "golden" years, is if petrie was able to do what he did back then. get a great player who might have some baggage but needs a fresh start in a different city, then add in other great players through the draft/trade or FA. we have to build this team through multiple sources, not just drafting. boston tried it that way and still sucked for awhile until they understood they needed tested nba players to put alongside pierce instead of just drafting. so they shipped away some picks and got ray allen. then, KG wasnt as against getting traded to boston as he was before since he was going to play with pierce and allen. so the celtics went from one of the worst "young" teams in the nba, to champions. now you and i can only dream that sac would become a championship team with 3 of the best nba players as our core, but it has to start somewhere, and i think we have to get a star in sacramento as a start in this rebuild.

 

[VF21]

why are we beggars? because we are a small market team, last place in the nba, and we arent really a destination that most players are dying to play for. the only way i see us getting back to the "golden" years, is if petrie was able to do what he did back then. get a great player who might have some baggage but needs a fresh start in a different city, then add in other great players through the draft/trade or FA. we have to build this team through multiple sources, not just drafting. boston tried it that way and still sucked for awhile until they understood they needed tested nba players to put alongside pierce instead of just drafting. so they shipped away some picks and got ray allen. then, KG wasnt as against getting traded to boston as he was before since he was going to play with pierce and allen. so the celtics went from one of the worst "young" teams in the nba, to champions. now you and i can only dream that sac would become a championship team with 3 of the best nba players as our core, but it has to start somewhere, and i think we have to get a star in sacramento as a start in this rebuild.

But, bottom line, do you REALLY equate Carmelo Anthony to Chris Webber, in terms of talent, ability to make others around him better, etc? I just do not picture Melo in that role, even if he were to come here.

 

[steelevt]

But, bottom line, do you REALLY equate Carmelo Anthony to Chris Webber, in terms of talent, ability to make others around him better, etc? I just do not picture Melo in that role, even if he were to come here.

i think carmelo is one of the top small forwards in the nba today. so talentwise, compared to webber at the same age, i'd say he is close, but probably not equal and no way better than webber. but its hard to compare stats when ones a PF and ones a SF. but considering carmelo is top 5 in ppg and rpg among SF, id say he's a pretty darn good player. now will he ever become as great or as important a player to the kings that cwebb was to us? i highly doubt it. he doesnt have the passing ability that cwebb pocessed, but i believe he could bring other things to the table. id say hes a clutch player, a good scorer, and a definite upgrade to what we have. i know comparing him to webber was a mistake on my part cuz the bar is pretty high for a player to meet. but if we can get someone of melo's talent (at a reasonable salary) for a #1 draft pick (who we dont know will bust or not), id do it.

 

[Bricklayer]

i think carmelo is one of the top small forwards in the nba today. so talentwise, compared to webber at the same age, i'd say he is close, but probably not equal and no way better than webber. but its hard to compare stats when ones a PF and ones a SF. but considering carmelo is top 5 in ppg and rpg among SF, id say he's a pretty darn good player. now will he ever become as great or as important a player to the kings that cwebb was to us? i highly doubt it. he doesnt have the passing ability that cwebb pocessed, but i believe he could bring other things to the table. id say hes a clutch player, a good scorer, and a definite upgrade to what we have. i know comparing him to webber was a mistake on my part cuz the bar is pretty high for a player to meet. but if we can get someone of melo's talent (at a reasonable salary) for a #1 draft pick (who we dont know will bust or not), id do it.

Its not so much "talent" per se, as "franchiseness". Basically that centerpiece player, who not only dominates the game in any number of ways, but really makes everyone on the team better on one end fo the floor or ther other (or both). there is a gap there between guys who are jsut good scorers, like Kevin, adn I think like Melo, and guys who really matter and become that pillar for you. That's kind of the key gap. If Melo was a treu centerpiece, the true superstar who could elevate everyone around him, then you go after him. He becomes your guy, and then you build around him. But if he's not, if he's just another scorer, then you're not going to go anywhere with him as a centerpiece and you just can't burn up assets that might bring you that centerpiece to get him. You get better, but you don't get good enough, and if he's just a scorer he doesn't fix or makeup for any of the weaknesses of his teammates.

 

[Smills91]

Not gonna buy it. Those are exceptions that pretty much prove the rule. EVEN if that were true, however, you're missing the ONE constant the Kings had during that period of time...RICK ADELMAN.

It takes a very special kind of coach to work with "black sheep" players. Maybe I'm missing something, but I certainly don't see Kenny Natt as fitting that mold.

Would you like more....???

Olden Polynice
Keon Clark
Doug Christie(yes he had a reputation before Sacto)
Bonzi Wells
Jason Williams

I mean it's a pretty extensive list here.

 

[VF21]

Would you like more....???

Olden Polynice
Keon Clark
Doug Christie(yes he had a reputation before Sacto)
Bonzi Wells
Jason Williams

I mean it's a pretty extensive list here.

If you're going to quote me, please read the whole post...

I'll point it out again for you:

EVEN if that were true, however, you're missing the ONE constant the Kings had during that period of time...RICK ADELMAN.

It takes a very special kind of coach to work with "black sheep" players. Maybe I'm missing something, but I certainly don't see Kenny Natt as fitting that mold .

 

[bloom]

I’d like to thank everyone for your opinions. I love reading them.

The reason I brought up Carmelo was because I think we have a shot at actually getting him. Even though I think Bosh would be the only one out of the 2010 stars that we might be able to get.

"My only [disappointment] is that I expected Carmelo to be a top-10 player by now, and I don't think he is. He can dominate games when he's focused, but he still has little interest in defense and rebounding, and I still see him taking bad shots.

"I really think that punch he threw in New York changed everything. He was an absolute monster before he threw that punch, and then he had to sit out six weeks or whatever and I don't know if he's ever regained it. Now he and George are having problems again. If they go out in the first round again, after another year of a bad relationship, I can't see both of them being in Denver when next season starts."

source: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-090307-08

To me Melo has made some mistakes – I personally hate it when players talk to the media negatively about their coaches. But I think he can grow from them, and at his age it might be hard, but a change of place could do him well, especially since there’s really no distractions over here. I do agree with some posters who said that Rick knew how to control the players and it’s going to be that much more harder to get the ship sailing in one smooth direction without a intelligent coach. I don’t think Natt could do it…To me bringing in Carmelo has some good and bad points. The problem I have with him is that he lacks making others better and he seems less interested in defense. I don’t know if it’s his lack of trust with other players or what. But I’d love to see what Kevin and Carmelo could do on the same team.

If we do bring him in we’d have to unload some contracts this summer or else all the work the front office has done would have gone to waste. At that point we’d have to get rid of Beno but bring in a young point guard - either through the draft or a trade (easier said than done). And we’d be saying goodbye to Nocioni (probably harder to get rid of than Beno). Kenny’s contract will expire at the best time.

And just to add a positive, the salary cap (from what I’ve heard) might go down this year, which could help us into the future.

I never underestimate teams anymore so I believe anything is possible. Maybe we can kill two birds with one stone: Send Beno & Noc to Denver for Melo. But from some comments I’m sure that some people might rather have Beno and Nocioni than Melo.

 

[vikinginferno]

I never underestimate teams anymore so I believe anything is possible. Maybe we can kill two birds with one stone: Send Beno & Noc to Denver for Melo. But from some comments I’m sure that some people might rather have Beno and Nocioni than Melo.

Woah, woah, woah! I doubt anyone wouldn't want to get rid of two horrible contracts for almost a superstar. That trade in no way would happen though.

 

[bloom]

Woah, woah, woah! I doubt anyone wouldn't want to get rid of two horrible contracts for almost a superstar. That trade in no way would happen though.

You never know. Anything is possible, at least that's what the NBA tells me..lol