Thoughts on Hawes?

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You must think that by restricting Hawes's game to the inside we would be making the playoffs this year...:DWhat we need is to build this team for the long term, not sacrifice Hawes's game by restricting it to the inside. We certainly don't need to take a talent who has the flexibility to hit outside and inside shots and tell him to restrict his game to the inside. I want him to be able to play both inside and outside. You would be inhibiting his long-term growth as a player and the team's long term growth if you restricted him just to the inside. (I remember in the draft there was a tall european player (name escapes me) who's "brilliant" coach told him to restrict his game to the inside. The result? He lost confidence in his outside shot. Now he only has an inside game.)

So Hawes plays against Shaq and you want to tell him to take Shaq inside? That's absurd. Or, conversely, he plays against Golden State and Don Nelson wants puts Jackson on him. Obviously, you want him to go inside then. Flexibility on offense is a great advantage. I see no reason to take away that flexibility. Instead, I would emphasis and augment it. And, I would hope that the coach devises an offense to take full advantage of a center who can do both.


In the last decade in particular many a young big who might have been more did not turn out because they were soft and undisciplined and took the easy way out on offense. And the easy way out is shooting a jumper. Easiest thing you can do on offense. Least amount of work. Least amount of contact.

A strong post player is not only more valuable than a strong jump shooter, it is also rarer. If you get one, or the potential for one, you can not let that young guy develop bad habits. Its a tough physical game inside. Far too great a temptation to bail and stand outside rather than take the punishment. There are a lot of guys in the league who are good shooters, and have no realistic chance of ever being a good post player. We call them guards. If you are a 7'1" wuss standing out at the three point line, you are in their way. You are screwing up the spacing, not creating any room for the little guys, you're not drawing fouls, you're not in position to rebound, nor to pass out of the post. And because you're 7'1" and not much of an athlete you do not have the mobility to slash all the way to the hoop from out there for a layup or rebound. Hawes is not a Webber or Garnett a Dirk, and he never will be. He does not have that mobility or those ball handling skills. If Spenser is outside, it is as a flatfooted jumpshooter.

I've mentioned before the three great big man skills are:

1) rebound
2) block shots
3) post game

#1 and #2 are unlikely to be much with Hawes. But he has a real chance at #3. There is a reason Rik Smits continued to start despite being a lousy rebounder and shot blocker, and that people continue to talk about Eddie Curry despite the same. If those guys were spending their time popping soft little face up jumpers they would be completely useless.


AFTER he has established himself as a post player. After that is his game, he knows it, the league knows it -- then the jumper becomes useful as a counter. But the danger in the early going is that he falls in love with the soft stuff, and never learns to really excel and hammer away at the skils which he and very few other guys actually have.
 
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Most 6'9" guys play the SF position today; hell, some 6'10" guys play SG. I'm actually surprised that Bird played SF, since players his height actually did actually tend to be big men in his day.

But Bird wasn't a big man; he didn't particularly play like a big man, despite his rebounding, and with McHale and Parrish patrolling the paint, it's kind of silly to even intimate that he was.

Bird was unique, that's for sure. He was a slow SF with minimal agility who could rebound like a PF. ALL of this was enhanced by the two other guys who made up this extraordinary threesome because each had to be honored.

But this is off topic - just a wistful memory of a guy who got to see the whole history of these three Celtics, from college to retirement in the case of McHale and Bird. :) Am I old or what?
 
In the last decade in particular many a young big who might have been more did not turn out because they were soft and undisciplined and took the easy way out on offense. And the easy way out is shooting a jumper. Easiest thing you can do on offense. Least amount of work. Least amount of contact.

A strong post player is not only more valuable than a strong jump shooter, it is also rarer. If you get one, or the potential for one, you can not let that young guy develop bad habits. Its a tough physical game inside. Far too great a temptation to bail and stand outside rather than take the punishment. There are a lot of guys in the league who are good shooters, and have no realistic chance of ever being a good post player. We call them guards. If you are a 7'1" wuss standing out at the three point line, you are in their way. You are screwing up the spacing, not creating any room for the little guys, you're not drawing fouls, you're not in position to rebound, nor to pass out of the post. And because you're 7'1" and not much of an athlete you do not have the mobility to slash all the way to the hoop from out there for a layup or rebound. Hawes is not a Webber or Garnett a Dirk, and he never will be. He does not have that mobility or those ball handling skills. If Spenser is outside, it is as a flatfooted jumpshooter.

I've mentioned before the three great big man skills are:

1) rebound
2) block shots
3) post game

#1 and #2 are unlikely to be much with Hawes. But he has a real chance at #3. There is a reason Rik Smits continued to start despite being a lousy rebounder and shot blocker, and that people continue to talk about Eddie Curry despite the same. If those guys were spending their time popping soft little face up jumpers they would be completely useless.

Neither Kingster nor I are saying that this is an either/or situation. We are not saying he should become either a three point shooter or an inside player. This is what you imply is being stated and your argument flows from that erroneous representation.

I am quite sure that Hawes' offensive career will live and die with his ability in the low post.
 
Neither Kingster nor I are saying that this is an either/or situation. We are not saying he should become either a three point shooter or an inside player.

but it is likely that he will be one or the other, despite what we'd like. NBA habits develop early on. if the knock on hawes is his interior presence (rebounding, battling in the paint), then i don't see how moving him to jumpshooting position improves those areas.
 
but it is likely that he will be one or the other, despite what we'd like. NBA habits develop early on. if the knock on hawes is his interior presence (rebounding, battling in the paint), then i don't see how moving him to jumpshooting position improves those areas.

I can't respond because it appears you haven't read my note. I never said he should be moved to a jump shooting position.
 
Neither Kingster nor I are saying that this is an either/or situation. We are not saying he should become either a three point shooter or an inside player. This is what you imply is being stated and your argument flows from that erroneous representation.

I am quite sure that Hawes' offensive career will live and die with his ability in the low post.


As long as that last statement is true, I think he'll have an NBA career, knees/health permitting. If he were not so good/did nbot have so much potential in the post, this wouldn't be an issue. But he's very young, still growing into the player he will be, and now of all times I would like to see the coaching staff insist on his development as an interior threat. Having a jumper can be a good thing...if he understands that its the frosting. The danger I foresee is him imitating Miller, getting used in the same sets, and learnign to think of himself as an "all court player"/face up guy who can occasionally post, rather than the other way around. This is basically a college kid -- should be perfect for Reggie. But he has to teach him right.
 
As long as that last statement is true, I think he'll have an NBA career, knees/health permitting. If he were not so good/did nbot have so much potential in the post, this wouldn't be an issue. But he's very young, still growing into the player he will be, and now of all times I would like to see the coaching staff insist on his development as an interior threat. Having a jumper can be a good thing...if he understands that its the frosting. The danger I foresee is him imitating Miller, getting used in the same sets, and learnign to think of himself as an "all court player"/face up guy who can occasionally post, rather than the other way around. This is basically a college kid -- should be perfect for Reggie. But he has to teach him right.

I agree 100%. I never considered he might copy Miller and as they seem to have a different set of skills, I am not so worried but I understand your fears.
 
I can't respond because it appears you haven't read my note. I never said he should be moved to a jump shooting position.

i never said that you did, merely stating a question/my point of view. we can get into a semantics/devil's advocate argument, if you're bored though.
 
Apparently Reggie wants Hawes to start later this year? I caught a blip in the pregame show walking through the room....
 
Neither Kingster nor I are saying that this is an either/or situation. We are not saying he should become either a three point shooter or an inside player. This is what you imply is being stated and your argument flows from that erroneous representation.

I am quite sure that Hawes' offensive career will live and die with his ability in the low post.

Personally, I don't care if he shoots from the outside, but it should be no more than 20% of his shots...and I would prefer if it was less. For a Center, a good ouside game should compliment a strong post game, not vice versa. And especially in his rookie season...I want him to establish his "highly touted" post ability at the highest level, against the league's best, consistently. If he does that and then takes a couple 20 footers here and there, sweet. Icing on the top.

For a team whose best post option has been Ron Artest (SAR hasn't been the same since the PO's against SA), we desperately need Hawes' post game.
 
In the last decade in particular many a young big who might have been more did not turn out because they were soft and undisciplined and took the easy way out on offense. And the easy way out is shooting a jumper. Easiest thing you can do on offense. Least amount of work. Least amount of contact.

A strong post player is not only more valuable than a strong jump shooter, it is also rarer. If you get one, or the potential for one, you can not let that young guy develop bad habits. Its a tough physical game inside. Far too great a temptation to bail and stand outside rather than take the punishment. There are a lot of guys in the league who are good shooters, and have no realistic chance of ever being a good post player. We call them guards. If you are a 7'1" wuss standing out at the three point line, you are in their way. You are screwing up the spacing, not creating any room for the little guys, you're not drawing fouls, you're not in position to rebound, nor to pass out of the post. And because you're 7'1" and not much of an athlete you do not have the mobility to slash all the way to the hoop from out there for a layup or rebound. Hawes is not a Webber or Garnett a Dirk, and he never will be. He does not have that mobility or those ball handling skills. If Spenser is outside, it is as a flatfooted jumpshooter.

I've mentioned before the three great big man skills are:

1) rebound
2) block shots
3) post game

#1 and #2 are unlikely to be much with Hawes. But he has a real chance at #3. There is a reason Rik Smits continued to start despite being a lousy rebounder and shot blocker, and that people continue to talk about Eddie Curry despite the same. If those guys were spending their time popping soft little face up jumpers they would be completely useless.


AFTER he has established himself as a post player. After that is his game, he knows it, the league knows it -- then the jumper becomes useful as a counter. But the danger in the early going is that he falls in love with the soft stuff, and never learns to really excel and hammer away at the skils which he and very few other guys actually have.

The only part I disagree with you on is the last paragraph. I want him to do both inside and outside now - not wait a couple of years. Yes, there is more for him to incorporate if he does both, now. Yes, he would get better at the inside game, if that's the only thing he did. But I'd rather throw everything at him now - both inside and outside game. Deal with the high learning curve now. I think he can handle it because from the games I've seen in college and the pros, he's got the fundamentals down already for both. I think where we both agree is that the Kings need to get him the ball down-low more than they have. I don't think that's Hawes's fault. It's the guards fault, or Theus for not demanding it. In that regard, I too am frustrated.
 
Apparently Reggie wants Hawes to start later this year? I caught a blip in the pregame show walking through the room....


If so he has to be at the PF position. I wouldn't want to bench Brad because I think Miller and Hawes could compliment each other.

With Hawes playing post, and Miller outside a ton of things could open up for the Kings shooting wise. Only thing that worries me though is we wouldn't get many second chance points, and our defensive rebounding would suffer.

That being said, again I watched JUST Hawes last night when he was in focusing on whether or not he was being pushed around, or dislodged when trying to rebound, and I did not see it at all. On the ofensive boards he wasn't able to get the position, but he weas never in position and then pushed out. Once he got it he was there to stay. I am actually pretty impressed by his willnigness to put his body in there. I think he will be OK..

Couple days ago I was REALLY impressed with his post play.

I will wait to pass judgement (I said he was a bad pick from day one) but I think the kid has potential to prove us naysayers wrong. One thing I am glad for though, is that we did not get another wing player. That would have really pissed me off to have 5 wing players...
 
My thought today is pretty darn impressive for a 19 year old who has only played about 45 minutes in the league.
 
Most 6'9" guys play the SF position today; hell, some 6'10" guys play SG. I'm actually surprised that Bird played SF, since players his height actually did actually tend to be big men in his day.

But Bird wasn't a big man; he didn't particularly play like a big man, despite his rebounding, and with McHale and Parrish patrolling the paint, it's kind of silly to even intimate that he was.

I'am so sick of this big man and athletic crap. Dude, if you can play the game, you can play the game. Barkley was 6'4" maybe 6'5" and played the PF position. He was a great rebounder and unstoppable under the basket. Dantley was maybe 6'7" and another great rebounder. Look what Lee did last night. He's only 6'9". Its all about hustle and desire and IQ. There have been ton's of big guys that could jump out of the building who never made it in the NBA because they just couldn't play the game. Bird had skills and had great basketball IQ. He was a good defender because he knew what you wanted to do with the ball and took that away from you. Magic was a player who could play every position on the floor and did in one game. He wasn't the fastest player and certainly couldn't jump the highest, but he had great court vision and once again, knew how to play the game.

People will say, oh yeah, your talking about superstars. No, I'm talking about what made them superstars. It doesn't matter how tall you are or how high you can jump. Those things help, but I'll take a skilled, less athletic guy over an athletic freak with no learned skills anyday.........
 
I'am so sick of this big man and athletic crap. Dude, if you can play the game, you can play the game. Barkley was 6'4" maybe 6'5" and played the PF position. He was a great rebounder and unstoppable under the basket. Dantley was maybe 6'7" and another great rebounder. Look what Lee did last night. He's only 6'9". Its all about hustle and desire and IQ. There have been ton's of big guys that could jump out of the building who never made it in the NBA because they just couldn't play the game. Bird had skills and had great basketball IQ. He was a good defender because he knew what you wanted to do with the ball and took that away from you. Magic was a player who could play every position on the floor and did in one game. He wasn't the fastest player and certainly couldn't jump the highest, but he had great court vision and once again, knew how to play the game.

People will say, oh yeah, your talking about superstars. No, I'm talking about what made them superstars. It doesn't matter how tall you are or how high you can jump. Those things help, but I'll take a skilled, less athletic guy over an athletic freak with no learned skills anyday.........

Your statements don't go together. All of the guys you mention here, aside from Bird, were freakish athletes. Barkley, Dantley, Magic... These guys had incredible athletic gifts that, in the case of Barkley and Dantley, allowed them to play bigger than they were, and in the case of Magic, allowed him to play both bigger and smaller.

Yeah, they also got by on skill, and yeah, there are also guys like Bird and McHale who weren't freakish athletes and were great because of their skill. But this is a different era in the NBA -- even the last seven years have been a huge change as guys like Stockton, Mark Jackson, Peja, Brad Miller have given way to athletic freaks like Chris Paul, Deron Williams, LeBron and Dwight Howard.

These days you have to have skills AND athleticism. The days of Bird and McHale is over. Who among the top 25 players in the game today isn't at least an above average athlete if not a freakish athlete?

The game has changed and the bar has been raised. Spencer has size going for him, which is good, and we'll see how his skills translate. But his lack of athleticism means that his potential is limited -- he's a role playing post scorer (who apparently would prefer to shoot jump shots). We'll see if he's able to become anything more than that. He doesn't yet have transcendent skills to make up for his athleticism.
 
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Your statements don't go together. All of the guys you mention here, aside from Bird, were freakish athletes. Barkley, Dantley, Magic... These guys had incredible athletic gifts that, in the case of Barkley and Dantley, allowed them to play bigger than they were, and in the case of Magic, allowed him to play both bigger and smaller.

Yeah, they also got by on skill, and yeah, there are also guys like Bird and McHale who weren't freakish athletes and were great because of their skill. But this is a different era in the NBA -- even the last seven years have been a huge change as guys like Stockton, Mark Jackson, Peja, Brad Miller have given way to athletic freaks like Chris Paul, Deron Williams, LeBron and Dwight Howard.

These days you have to have skills AND athleticism. The days of Bird and McHale is over. Who among the top 25 players in the game today isn't at least an above average athlete if not a freakish athlete?

The game has changed and the bar has been raised. Spencer has size going for him, which is good, and we'll see how his skills translate. But his lack of athleticism means that his potential is limited -- he's a role playing post scorer (who apparently would prefer to shoot jump shots). We'll see if he's able to become anything more than that. He doesn't yet have transcendent skills to make up for his athleticism.

I suspose that people only see what they want to see. I'm not opposed to a player having great athletic ability. I just don't see it as being a prerequisite to being a very good basketball player. Are you telling me that Bird and McHale couldn't compete today. Are you telling me that there wern't freakish athlete's in their day. Wilt Chamberlin, Oscar Robertson etc. What seperated all those players from the rest was their skill set. Players who knew how to pass. Set screens etc. Justin Williams is a perfect example of a player who is a freakish athlete, but who's career has been slowed by his lack of fundamentals. Lee on the other hand doesn't have his athletic ability but is a better player right now because of those same fundamentals.
 
Justin Williams is a perfect example of a player who is a freakish athlete, but who's career has been slowed by his lack of fundamentals. Lee on the other hand doesn't have his athletic ability but is a better player right now because of those same fundamentals.

David Lee is also a perfect example of a first round draft pick who has almost 9 times as much PT as undrafted Justin: 51.4 hours as opposed to 5.8. Lee got to develop his skills through 4 years at Florida, while Justin was playing for a community college, or for Wyoming. So, basically, Lee is starting his 7th year playing big minutes against top notch competition, while Justin's had limited PT at that level for about a year. (Lee is half an inch taller than Justin in bare feet, BTW, he's not short.) Who did you expect to be the better player at the moment?
 
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Lee doesn't have athletic ability? You don't watch many Knicks games, do you; Lee is a great athlete.

I didn't want to try to make that assertion myself, since that's kind of a matter of opinion... so I looked up their predraft combine stats, which are simply fact.

Justin Williams: 31.5" max vert, 7 bench presses, 11.9 seconds on lane agility, 3.31 sec 3/4 court sprint, total rank: 63
David Lee: 32.5" max vert, 14 bench presses, 10.8 sec. lane agility, 3.19 sec 3/4 court sprint, total rank: 11

Measurements
------------------------height-----weight---wingspan--reach
Lee, David -----------6'7¾"----229½----7'0"------8'10½"
Williams, Justin----6'7.25"---211------7'1.5"-----9'1"

So David Lee is a more gifted athlete by every single measure. The only advantage Justin has in anything is slightly longer arms.
 
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but it is likely that he will be one or the other, despite what we'd like. NBA habits develop early on. if the knock on hawes is his interior presence (rebounding, battling in the paint), then i don't see how moving him to jumpshooting position improves those areas.

No, it isn't. The only reason it's likely is that some small mind will see him only as inside or outside and prevent Hawes from reaching his ultimate potential. Just like having a player play different positions gives a coach great flexibility in matchups, Hawes should give a coach great flexibility because of his offense will not be one-dimensional. What a GREAT ability to have! How many centers can make that claim?
 
No, it isn't. The only reason it's likely is that some small mind will see him only as inside or outside and prevent Hawes from reaching his ultimate potential. Just like having a player play different positions gives a coach great flexibility in matchups, Hawes should give a coach great flexibility because of his offense will not be one-dimensional. What a GREAT ability to have! How many centers can make that claim?

That's why Troy Murphy is such a hot commodity. *cough*
 
I'm cautiously optimist about Hawes. He's got game and he can block shots. I haven't seen a lot of desire to rebound out of him and saying his style is "a lot like Brad's" on Sports 1140 scared hell out of me. For a 19-year-old, white, big man, he reminds me more of Dirk at a young age, than Brad. Let's keep it that way. ;)
 
Considering that some seem to fear that he could become the next Raef LaFrentz, turning into Brad doesn't sound so terrible. Let's hope that he keeps working on his D and rebounding, and doesn't let his inside game slip any. His outside game seems fine as it is.
 
Considering that some seem to fear that he could become the next Raef LaFrentz, turning into Brad doesn't sound so terrible. Let's hope that he keeps working on his D and rebounding, and doesn't let his inside game slip any. His outside game seems fine as it is.


Not a chance. The skill levels are way too far apart. Spencer sees the game. He could be in a wheelchair, it doesn't matter, he sees the floor. Way smarter ball player than I had originally thought.
 
Considering that some seem to fear that he could become the next Raef LaFrentz, turning into Brad doesn't sound so terrible. Let's hope that he keeps working on his D and rebounding, and doesn't let his inside game slip any. His outside game seems fine as it is.

Defensively you better hope he becomes LaFrentz. That guy was one hell of a shotblocker in his prime. Also a good rebounder.

Offensively, yeah he settled for jumpers way too much. That part Hawes should avoid.
 
Defensively you better hope he becomes LaFrentz. That guy was one hell of a shotblocker in his prime. Also a good rebounder.

Offensively, yeah he settled for jumpers way too much. That part Hawes should avoid.


Yea LaFrentz blocked like 2-3shots per game for a while, too bad his knees fell apart. I think Hawes could get 1.5-2 BPG though. A lot of people say he's too unathletic but he's got some pretty long arms.
 
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