Thornton for Harden:

[bajaden]

Since there's nothing going on, I thought I'd throw this out there. Its been touched on before, but what the hell. It looks like the Thunder are in somewhat of a pickle. They have a strong team, and Harden is an important part of that. But it looks like he wants the max, and if they give it to him, they're suddenly in the land of the wealthy. Their payroll would jump up in the 60 plus million range dangerously close to the luxury tax and perhaps over.

Right now the Thunder are on the recieving end of revenue sharing, which is estimated to be close to 16 mill a team this coming season for those on the recieving end. Signing Harden to a max extension changes all that. Not only are they not recieving, they're now one of the contributers.

Thornton for Harden straight up works according to ESPN trade machine. There's about a 1.8 million difference in their salaries. A difference the Kings would save the coming season. The Thunder on the other hand would have a player to fill the 6th man spot secured for the next three seasons.

The downside for the Kings of course is that at seasons end, they would have both Harden and Tyreke as restricted freeagents, and both probably wanting the max. But, if they thought it was justified, they could keep both players by matching any offer. It would also give the Kings an option to fall back on if they deem Tyreke not worthy of a max contract.

So it all comes down to whether you think Harden is that much better than Thornton or not, and worth the price down the road. I do think he's a much better player than Harden overall, and could easily be a player that could be a star if you needed him to be. I'll admit to being biased when it comes to Harden. I've liked him since his college days and he's done nothing to make me change my mind.

 

[Bricklayer]

Touched on by me in a threeway deal I think.

As far as Harden, I sincerely have little interest. I think he's fool's gold at his price and some team is going to get caught holding the bag/being that fool when they drop a max contract on a guy who's weaknesses have been covered up by being the third best guy on his team. If you could swap Harden for Thornton and Harden had to play under Thornton's contract, sure. But you are going to have to pay him max if you get him, and I think that's going to end up looking like the Joe Johnson deal.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

As far as Harden, I sincerely have little interest. I think he's fool's gold at his price and some team is going to get caught holding the bag/being that fool when they drop a max contract on a guy who's weaknesses have been covered up by being the third best guy on his team. If you could swap Harden for Thornton and Harden had to play under Thornton's contract, sure. But you are going to have to pay him max if you get him, and I think that's going to end up looking like the Joe Johnson deal.

+1

I don't want any part of Harden at the price he's gonna command. He's an excellent 3rd option when you have Durant and Westbrook on your team, but he's not a franchise type player. While I fully believe he'd be a good outside shooting threat and compliment to DeMarcus and his inside game, I think you can find another player to fill that role for far less money ... ie Marcus Thornton.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

totally agree brick.

Touched on by me in a threeway deal I think.

As far as Harden, I sincerely have little interest. I think he's fool's gold at his price and some team is going to get caught holding the bag/being that fool when they drop a max contract on a guy who's weaknesses have been covered up by being the third best guy on his team. If you could swap Harden for Thornton and Harden had to play under Thornton's contract, sure. But you are going to have to pay him max if you get him, and I think that's going to end up looking like the Joe Johnson deal.

 

[Kingster]

Since there's nothing going on, I thought I'd throw this out there. Its been touched on before, but what the hell. It looks like the Thunder are in somewhat of a pickle. They have a strong team, and Harden is an important part of that. But it looks like he wants the max, and if they give it to him, they're suddenly in the land of the wealthy. Their payroll would jump up in the 60 plus million range dangerously close to the luxury tax and perhaps over.

Right now the Thunder are on the recieving end of revenue sharing, which is estimated to be close to 16 mill a team this coming season for those on the recieving end. Signing Harden to a max extension changes all that. Not only are they not recieving, they're now one of the contributers.

Thornton for Harden straight up works according to ESPN trade machine. There's about a 1.8 million difference in their salaries. A difference the Kings would save the coming season. The Thunder on the other hand would have a player to fill the 6th man spot secured for the next three seasons.

The downside for the Kings of course is that at seasons end, they would have both Harden and Tyreke as restricted freeagents, and both probably wanting the max. But, if they thought it was justified, they could keep both players by matching any offer. It would also give the Kings an option to fall back on if they deem Tyreke not worthy of a max contract.

So it all comes down to whether you think Harden is that much better than Thornton or not, and worth the price down the road. I do think he's a much better player than Harden overall, and could easily be a player that could be a star if you needed him to be. I'll admit to being biased when it comes to Harden. I've liked him since his college days and he's done nothing to make me change my mind.

Harden is much better than Thornton, and you can easily make the argument that he's better than Tyreke. After all, the guy can shoot. He also defends, gets to the basket, and has a high basketball IQ. So yeah, I'd go for that deal, and then you could have the option of trading Tyreke for value. Harden's stock went down because of his subpar play against Miami. That's a mistake. Judged on his entire season, he's an excellent player, an intelligent player, who would make the Kings considerably better.

 

[Bricklayer]

Harden is much better than Thornton, and you can easily make the argument that he's better than Tyreke. After all, the guy can shoot. He also defends, gets to the basket, and has a high basketball IQ. So yeah, I'd go for that deal, and then you could have the option of trading Tyreke for value. Harden's stock went down because of his subpar play against Miami. That's a mistake. Judged on his entire season, he's an excellent player, an intelligent player, who would make the Kings considerably better.

Harden couldn't defend me.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Harden couldn't defend me.

Why would he? You're the one with the law degree!

 

[Hadlowe]

Harden couldn't defend me.

Harden does actually attempt to defend, though. In that regard, he's already leaps and bounds ahead of Thornton.

The problem with Thornton for Harden directly is that you again force Tyreke out of his position. If you get involved with a third team, we could get that small forward roleplayer we've been wanting. If you send Thornton to OKC, Harden to Phoenix (who really wants a star shooting guard for some reason), and bring Jared Dudley to Sacramento, I could get behind that.

 

[beb0p]

The Bobcats love Harden don't they? They offered the #2 for Harden didn't they? Trade for Harden and then swing him to Charlotte for MKG. Nothing to stop the Thunders from trading Harden for MKG straight up, but I suppose in this universe the Thunders like thornton over MKG.

Or keep Harden and trade Tyreke.

Or keep Tyreke and trade Harden.

Bottom line is, you may or may not think Harden deserves the max, but there is absolutely without question that he is the superior talent to Thornton. There is also no question that Harden is a much better trade chip than Thornton. If the Thunder is dumb enough to trade Harden for Thornton, jump on it! It will never happen, but if it does, make the damn trade before the Thunder sober up.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Harden is much better than Thornton, and you can easily make the argument that he's better than Tyreke. After all, the guy can shoot. He also defends, gets to the basket, and has a high basketball IQ. So yeah, I'd go for that deal, and then you could have the option of trading Tyreke for value. Harden's stock went down because of his subpar play against Miami. That's a mistake. Judged on his entire season, he's an excellent player, an intelligent player, who would make the Kings considerably better.

he is playing against bench players

 

[Big Cuz 15]

The Bobcats love Harden don't they? They offered the #2 for Harden didn't they? Trade for Harden and then swing him to Charlotte for MKG. Nothing to stop the Thunders from trading Harden for MKG straight up, but I suppose in this universe the Thunders like thornton over MKG.

Or keep Harden and trade Tyreke.

Or keep Tyreke and trade Harden.

Bottom line is, you may or may not think Harden deserves the max, but there is absolutely without question that he is the superior talent to Thornton. There is also no question that Harden is a much better trade chip than Thornton. If the Thunder is dumb enough to trade Harden for Thornton, jump on it! It will never happen, but if it does, make the damn trade before the Thunder sober up.

oooooOOOoo mkg would swing harden to charlotte for mkg for sure. we'd have to shell out top dollar to keep harden. imo, for a player who plays against other teams second unit doesn't impress me that much.

 

[Bricklayer]

The Bobcats love Harden don't they? They offered the #2 for Harden didn't they? Trade for Harden and then swing him to Charlotte for MKG. Nothing to stop the Thunders from trading Harden for MKG straight up, but I suppose in this universe the Thunders like thornton over MKG.

Or keep Harden and trade Tyreke.

Or keep Tyreke and trade Harden.

Bottom line is, you may or may not think Harden deserves the max, but there is absolutely without question that he is the superior talent to Thornton. There is also no question that Harden is a much better trade chip than Thornton. If the Thunder is dumb enough to trade Harden for Thornton, jump on it! It will never happen, but if it does, make the damn trade before the Thunder sober up.

This was basically my suggestion back before the draft. But that worm has turned I'm afraid. MKG looked great in summer league, and Charlotte looks to be sticking wiht the full rebuld idea.

 

[Warhawk]

Why would he? You're the one with the law degree!

I think you win the thread.

 

[bajaden]

he is playing against bench players

If you watch the Thunder, you'll notice that Harden is usually on the floor at crunch time. He averages over 30 minutes a game. And the notion that he can't defend is pure nonsense. He may not be on the first or second all defensive teams, but he's light years ahead of Thornton. Harden is a better athlete, a better shooter, a better passer and a better ball handler than Thornton. He does his job of role playing for the Thunder, but he could certainly do more if asked. He's always been the consumate team player even in college, where he sacrificed his game by esentially playing the PG position and being the setup man.

If we were to be honest about this, and put our personal likes and dislikes aside, Harden has more value around the league right now than either Tyreke or Thornton. And there's a reason for that. Right now, overall, he's a better player than either of them. Now Tyreke may change that opinion this season. But as it stands now, Harden is the clear winner on talent and skill level. He shot 49% overall and just under 40% from the three. He doesn't force things on the floor. In one respect, he's almost the perfect fit for our team.

And as BeBop said, and also a point I made, was that at the end of the season your could, if you desired sign both Tyreke and Harden, or you'd have the option of choosing between them, with the one you didn't choose becoming a trading piece of value.

 

[Kingster]

he is playing against bench players

The heck he is. He plays against starters, especially at the end of games when he's nailing 3 point shots. The guy is a very good player.

 

[Bricklayer]

The heck he is. He plays against starters, especially at the end of games when he's nailing 3 point shots. The guy is a very good player.

At the end of games he's nailing 3ptrs...as a THIRD option. Not only does he not face doubles or traps, he doesn't even consistently face top defenders.

And yes, he is a very good player. But he's a very good player who is going to demand to be paid like a superstar, and I just haven't seen that at all. The Joe Johnson situation really does feel about right.

 

[Kingster]

At the end of games he's nailing 3ptrs...as a THIRD option. Not only does he not face doubles or traps, he doesn't even consistently face top defenders.

And yes, he is a very good player. But he's a very good player who is going to demand to be paid like a superstar, and I just haven't seen that at all. The Joe Johnson situation really does feel about right.

You're making the assumption about pay. I'm not. He's an upgrade for this team. I'll leave it at that.

 

[bajaden]

At the end of games he's nailing 3ptrs...as a THIRD option. Not only does he not face doubles or traps, he doesn't even consistently face top defenders.

And yes, he is a very good player. But he's a very good player who is going to demand to be paid like a superstar, and I just haven't seen that at all. The Joe Johnson situation really does feel about right.

His skill level is nothing like that of Joe Johnson. They're two entirely different players. My point being, that Johnson is what he is, and thats about all he's capable of. Harden is capable of more than he's shown. Right now, he's like an actor thats played a role in a movie that was successful, and so as a result, thats the type of role he's painted into. That doesn't mean he can't play a bigger role or an entirely different role. He's a very skilled player that doesn't have many holes in his game.

Now your right about the money he'll probably demand, and that does make the decision to trade for him a reason to pause. It would be a risky move, but a bold move. But I can see why many wouldn't make the move. It would in all likelyhood come down to making a choice between Tyreke and Harden. With the caveat of a possible sign and trade with the player you decide against. Look, its not likely to happen, so its all moot. But I do think your seriously underselling Hardens ability. There are many teams out there that would love to pay him the max for his services, and the reason is, he's that good.

 

[Kingster]

At the end of games he's nailing 3ptrs...as a THIRD option. Not only does he not face doubles or traps, he doesn't even consistently face top defenders.

And yes, he is a very good player. But he's a very good player who is going to demand to be paid like a superstar, and I just haven't seen that at all. The Joe Johnson situation really does feel about right.

I don't buy the THIRD option paradigm. It implies this step by step basketball process: first the ball goes to Durant to see if he can get a shot, if he can't get a shot it goes to Westbrook, and if he can't get a shot it goes to Harden. In other words, Harden is left for the crumbs. The games didn't happen that way, however. Harden has taken over games in the fourth quarter and has been acknowledged by many announcers as a major reason for OKC success. You don't take over games if you are literally the third option.

 

[uolj]

I don't buy the THIRD option paradigm. It implies this step by step basketball process: first the ball goes to Durant to see if he can get a shot, if he can't get a shot it goes to Westbrook, and if he can't get a shot it goes to Harden. In other words, Harden is left for the crumbs. The games didn't happen that way, however. Harden has taken over games in the fourth quarter and has been acknowledged by many announcers as a major reason for OKC success. You don't take over games if you are literally the third option.

Your post doesn't address the point of calling him the third option. "Not only does he not face doubles or traps, he doesn't even consistently face top defenders." If teams are setting up their defense to primarily contain Durant and then try to contain Westbrook, then the logical conclusion is that they are not putting as much effort and attention into defending Harden.

It's not about who gets the ball first. Yes, of course Harden will get the first opportunity to score for the Thunder in some instances, because the defense is keying on stopping Durant and Westbrook.

 

[Kingster]

Your post doesn't address the point of calling him the third option. "Not only does he not face doubles or traps, he doesn't even consistently face top defenders." If teams are setting up their defense to primarily contain Durant and then try to contain Westbrook, then the logical conclusion is that they are not putting as much effort and attention into defending Harden.

It's not about who gets the ball first. Yes, of course Harden will get the first opportunity to score for the Thunder in some instances, because the defense is keying on stopping Durant and Westbrook.

I didn't notice Harden was unguarded for the points he was making in the 4th. Did you? Because that's what happens when double and triple teaming occurs. So I think this is largely a straw man argument. The question is: Would you deal Thornton for Harden. The answer is: Yes.

 

[uolj]

I didn't notice Harden was unguarded for the points he was making in the 4th. Did you? Because that's what happens when double and triple teaming occurs. So I think this is largely a straw man argument. The question is: Would you deal Thornton for Harden. The answer is: Yes.

You're right, you did argue against a straw man.

Nobody said Harden was unguarded. They said he doesn't face doubles or traps and that he doesn't face the opposing teams' best wing defenders. This makes his success less likely to translate to a team where he will be the #1 (or #2) wing option. This means that it is questionable whether he is worth the large contract that many expect he will want.

So, your answer to the question might be yes, but the reasons you gave against the "third option" comment don't really refute it at all.

 

[pshn80]

No on Thornton for Harden. Thornon is our ticket to get a fourth big man - Cousins, Thompson, Robinson and X. We do or will need a quslity X this season. Don't want someone to get in the way of developing Robinson but we need one more decent one. We have a SG starter and several decent back ups. No on Harden.

 

[bajaden]

You're right, you did argue against a straw man.

Nobody said Harden was unguarded. They said he doesn't face doubles or traps and that he doesn't face the opposing teams' best wing defenders. This makes his success less likely to translate to a team where he will be the #1 (or #2) wing option. This means that it is questionable whether he is worth the large contract that many expect he will want.

So, your answer to the question might be yes, but the reasons you gave against the "third option" comment don't really refute it at all.

So what your saying, is that Harden, one of the better 3pt shooters in the league, is left unguarded in the 4th quarter with the game on the line..Come on, I've watched the Thunder play a lot. They happen to be my second favorite team in the NBA, and what your implying is pure nonsense. Does it make his job easier to have Westbrook and Durant on the floor with him? Damm right it does, but don't hold that against him. He has a true shooting percentage of 66%. Thats not only better than Thornton, by a large margin, its better than every single player on the Kings team. He has an effeciency rating of 17.3%. The only player on the Kings that surpasses that is Cuz with 20.3%. To put it in prespective, Durant has an effeciency rating of 27.2%.

You also seem to be overlooking the fact that Harden is a better defender, a better passer by a large margin, and a better ballhandler. He's also has a very high BBIQ and is a team first player. If he were to approach the game with the same mentality as Thornton (Tunnel vision at times), he'd be averaging 20 plus points a game. But he doesn't! He's like having another PG on the floor. Look, its not going to happen anyway, so were arguing over nothing.

 

[uolj]

So what your saying, is that Harden, one of the better 3pt shooters in the league, is left unguarded in the 4th quarter with the game on the line..

I think you misread my post:

Nobody said Harden was unguarded.

This was the essence of my point:

Does it make his job easier to have Westbrook and Durant on the floor with him? Damm right it does.

I think you agree with me.

 

[Kingster]

You're right, you did argue against a straw man.

Nobody said Harden was unguarded. They said he doesn't face doubles or traps and that he doesn't face the opposing teams' best wing defenders. This makes his success less likely to translate to a team where he will be the #1 (or #2) wing option. This means that it is questionable whether he is worth the large contract that many expect he will want.

So, your answer to the question might be yes, but the reasons you gave against the "third option" comment don't really refute it at all.

So when they triple team, who are the two guys left unguarded? Your argument is an exaggeration and does not reflect the real world.

 

[Bricklayer]

So when they triple team, who are the two guys left unguarded? Your argument is an exaggeration and does not reflect the real world.

On the Thunder? Are you kidding me? The Thunder have three offensive weapons. On any given possession Perkins, Thabo, Collison, Ibaka, or almost anybody else they might have can be doubled off of or yes even tripled I suppose when they absolutely want the ball out fo somebody's hands. The point would be that very rarely do those doubles come at Harden. He is living a charmed life tucked in behind two absolutely huge offensive weapons. The 1st and 5th leading scorers in the league. And not only that, but both guys bookend him positionwise, so any top defender in Harden's general size class gets shifted over to try to stop the superstars. Harden comes in against reserves, and especially in crunchtime when they are all out there together he isn't scoring on the other team's best defenders. He in fact is often scoring on the other team's WORST perimeter defender at those times. That's not an argument that he is not a good player or that he's not doing a great job as that #3 gun in OKC. But it is one that his efficiency is an illusion. Put him on a bad team and expose him to the defensive pressure of a mainline star and he comes back to earth with a thud.

The defining issue here though is the contract. I still obviously take James Harden over Thornton all things being equal. But they aren't. The whole world anticipaes him signing a max contract. Its been talked about all summer. Every trade proposal to get him is inevitably tied to the idea that he's going to demand the max, and OKC cannot afford 4 huge contracts like that. Otherwise why on earth would they trade him? Well we can't afford a bad max contract either unless a guy is really special. One more time I will refer to the Joe Johnson situation. Life's a lot easier playing for an elite team with elite offensive players drawing enough attention to leave you open, and in Harden's case with elite defensive players to help cover for you on that end as well. Go out on your own and you don't lose your talent, but life gets harder and you lose your sparkle.

 

[uolj]

So when they triple team, who are the two guys left unguarded? Your argument is an exaggeration and does not reflect the real world.

I still think you're reading the argument incorrectly if you think it's an exaggeration. Bricklayer just explained it. It's not that nobody is guarding Harden or that Durant and Westbrook are always double-teamed leaving other players all alone. It's that the defensive attention is primarily on Durant and Westbrook and so on another team where Harden would need to be the #1 wing scorer his effectiveness would likely drop. That's not an exaggerated position. Don't read more into it than is there.

 

[bajaden]

I think you misread my post:




This was the essence of my point:
I think you agree with me.

I agree with you to the extent that yes, its easier to get your shot on a team that has a couple of stars on it, but you still have to make your shot. I don't think Harden would have any trouble getting his shot on the Kings. My arguement is that Harden is a very good basketball player, and would be an upgrade over Thornton. However, the price would be higher. So thats the decision that would have to be made. Mainly I was trying to hedge my bet on Tyreke. If you have both Tyreke and Harden, and you decide that Tyreke isn't the right fit because his jumpshot just isn't what it needs to be, it would be nice to have Harden sitting there as an option.

Its sort of a fantasy theory, but there's nothing else to talk about at the moment.

 

[uolj]

I agree with you to the extent that yes, its easier to get your shot on a team that has a couple of stars on it, but you still have to make your shot. I don't think Harden would have any trouble getting his shot on the Kings. My arguement is that Harden is a very good basketball player, and would be an upgrade over Thornton. However, the price would be higher. So thats the decision that would have to be made. Mainly I was trying to hedge my bet on Tyreke. If you have both Tyreke and Harden, and you decide that Tyreke isn't the right fit because his jumpshot just isn't what it needs to be, it would be nice to have Harden sitting there as an option.

Its sort of a fantasy theory, but there's nothing else to talk about at the moment.

Right... I'm just reinforcing the point behind the "third option" comment. It's relevant because of the price. Do we know Harden can be a #2 to Cousins? No. He works well as the #3 in OKC and the #3 wing, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll be able to translate that to a legit #1 wing and #2 player on the Kings that is worth max or near-max money.

In other words, I'm not saying yay or nay on Thornton for Harden, just pointing out the relevancy of Harden's position on OKC and his potential asking price to the question.