Thinking we can entice Rondo may be moot

[Bricklayer]

Would rather let him walk and make a run at Conley

That's oft said, but saying nothing more then you'd rather let him walk. Mike Conley is not coming here. He has absolutely not one reason in the world to do so, and will have half the league pursuing him. We'll be lucky if Rajon himself wants to come back, let alone nabbing one of the Top 10 blue chippers on the market.

 

[Hoovtrain]

That's oft said, but saying nothing more then you'd rather let him walk. Mike Conley is not coming here. He has absolutely not one reason in the world to do so, and will have half the league pursuing him. We'll be lucky if Rajon himself wants to come back, let alone nabbing one of the Top 10 blue chippers on the market.

Quite possibly. And there is the also the remote possibility they grossly overpay and land him. It's a part of my Pipe Dream Offseason 2016.

 

[gunks]

Now Conley, I'd overpay for.

 

[funkykingston]

That's oft said, but saying nothing more then you'd rather let him walk. Mike Conley is not coming here. He has absolutely not one reason in the world to do so, and will have half the league pursuing him. We'll be lucky if Rajon himself wants to come back, let alone nabbing one of the Top 10 blue chippers on the market.

No, Conley isn't coming to Sacramento.

Yes, I'd still let Rondo walk.

It's hard for me to reconcile your desire to re-sign Rondo with your desire to improve the Kings defensively. Rondo has been bar-none the worst defender on a poor defending Kings team this year.

 

[macadocious]

No, Conley isn't coming to Sacramento.

Yes, I'd still let Rondo walk.

It's hard for me to reconcile your desire to re-sign Rondo with your desire to improve the Kings defensively. Rondo has been bar-none the worst defender on a poor defending Kings team this year.

Marco Bellinelli takes umbrage with this statement.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Marco Bellinelli takes umbrage with this statement.

Yes, both DRating and DBPM put Belinelli as the worst defender on the team and Rondo right about smack dab average for the Kings. But Rondo's effort does look really bad out there on D, it's just that the numbers don't really reflect that (it is a bit tough to put too much faith in these defensive numbers but there's not much out there).

 

[funkykingston]

Marco Bellinelli takes umbrage with this statement.

Very true. I can submit my statement with the noted amendment. Yes, Marco is worse. That said, I'm not sure Marco gives less effort than Rajon, he's just so limited athletically.

Yes, both DRating and DBPM put Belinelli as the worst defender on the team and Rondo right about smack dab average for the Kings. But Rondo's effort does look really bad out there on D, it's just that the numbers don't really reflect that (it is a bit tough to put too much faith in these defensive numbers but there's not much out there).

I've never found a defensive metric that I've been happy with. Especially when many of them are based on who else is on the court and the stats themselves often give very different results in terms of trying to use them to identify the best defensive players in the NBA. I like that the advanced metrics available to fans are starting to proliferate and I think in time we'll see much better statistical models and formulas that distill a player's defensive value more accurately.

But until then I have to rely primarily on my eyes. And what I see from Rondo is a guy exerting very little effort on the defensive end. This doesn't look like lingering physical issues from his ACL injury. He seems plenty quick (both north-south and laterally) on the offensive end and simply disinclined to exert himself on defense. Yes, Karl's defensive scheme is terrible. But all it takes is Seth Curry (who is definitely not as quick, strong, long or savvy as Rondo) to come in and put some energy into his on-ball defense to show how much Rondo is dogging it out there.

At this stage Rondo is simply too incomplete a player to me to justify a huge contract. He's a poor shooter (and a liability in crunch time due to his atrocious FT%) so he needs a deadeye shooter at the other guard spot. He's a sieve on defense so the SG also has to be capable of guarding PGs (as Avery Bradley often did in Boston) and he's very ball dominant so your offense has to run through him which limits the types of scheme you can run.

If Rondo could be resigned for $10 million I think I could be onboard with that. But for $17-$18 million I'm not nearly as interested.

 

[Bricklayer]

No, Conley isn't coming to Sacramento.

Yes, I'd still let Rondo walk.

It's hard for me to reconcile your desire to re-sign Rondo with your desire to improve the Kings defensively. Rondo has been bar-none the worst defender on a poor defending Kings team this year.

Yes, and he's also led the league in assists and restored his reputation as one of the preeminent rebounding/triple double guards in the NBA.

What Rondo does well he does so well it marks him as the designated weak defender (maybe, I still want to see him with a new coach) who's worth it. We can maybe find a better defensive PG, although few enough PGs aren't bad on that end. But we will be giving away enormous swaths of ground in other areas and threatening to return right back tot eh bottom of the league in assists.

People always talk rather vaguely about o we want a better defender, or oh in some fantasy scenario we are going to get a two way star, but that's not reality. Reality is that its possible to get a better defender. But given how few actually good, impact defending PGs there are, its not likely you are going to get one much past solid defensively. And its damn near guaranteed that for that honor you are going to lose a crapload of creativity, experience, and boardwork.

Throw in the fact that Boogie likes Rondo a lot, and that those two guys are effectively the leaders, with DC reemerging as a bench leader late in the season, and there is an obvious core to keep rather than ripping open unnecessary holes to go chase a pipedream. Upgrade the 2 and 3 defensively, start Boogie and a more experienced Willie, get a coach who emphasizes defense, do all that and a sloppy man defender at the PG is no longer any great disaster.

 

[funkykingston]

Yes, and he's also led the league in assists and restored his reputation as one of the preeminent rebounding/triple double guards in the NBA.

What Rondo does well he does so well it marks him as the designated weak defender (maybe, I still want to see him with a new coach) who's worth it. We can maybe find a better defensive PG, although few enough PGs aren't bad on that end. But we will be giving away enormous swaths of ground in other areas and threatening to return right back tot eh bottom of the league in assists.

People always talk rather vaguely about o we want a better defender, or oh in some fantasy scenario we are going to get a two way star, but that's not reality. Reality is that its possible to get a better defender. But given how few actually good, impact defending PGs there are, its not likely you are going to get one much past solid defensively. And its damn near guaranteed that for that honor you are going to lose a crapload of creativity, experience, and boardwork.

Throw in the fact that Boogie likes Rondo a lot, and that those two guys are effectively the leaders, with DC reemerging as a bench leader late in the season, and there is an obvious core to keep rather than ripping open unnecessary holes to go chase a pipedream. Upgrade the 2 and 3 defensively, start Boogie and a more experienced Willie, get a coach who emphasizes defense, do all that and a sloppy man defender at the PG is no longer any great disaster.

I'm simply not convinced that Rondo helps a team win at this stage in his career. I'm not thinking the Kings will instead use that caproom to sign a star player, only that I'm far from convinced that signing Rondo to a massive contract and hitting the salary cap to keep together a core that struggled to win 30 games is a good idea.

Boston arguably got better after trading Rondo. Toronto demonstrably improved after dealing Rudy Gay for spare parts. Why some fans tend to think that a team built around Rondo/Gay/Cousins can succeed despite the evidence so far is beyond me.

Personally I'd love to trade Gay, not sign Rondo and build a team around Cousins closer to what Houston did around Olajuwon or what SVG did around Dwight and is now trying to do around Drummond. Maybe Gay goes to Atlanta in a three way deal that sends Teague to Houston and nets the Kings some older 3&D guys in Ariza and Sefolosha. Then the caproom is used on Anderson instead of re-signing Rondo.

Collison/Curry/???
Sefalosha/McLemore and/or Belinelli
Ariza/Casspi/???
Cauley-Stein/Anderson/Acy
Cousins/Koufos/???

along with a lottery pick and a minor signing or two sounds a LOT better to me than returning with Rondo/McLemore/Gay/WCS/Cousins with a rookie being the only key addition.

Part of my bias with Rondo is that I'm not a fan of ball dominant PGs in today's NBA. They become one dimensional and easy to gameplan for, especially in the playoffs versus a team where everyone moves the ball.

 

[206Fan]

Watch for Jeff Teague on the trading block this year. I believe the Hawks will move on from Teague and let Schroeder lead the team. Rumors side with this as well.

 

[kingsboi]

Watch for Jeff Teague on the trading block this year. I believe the Hawks will move on from Teague and let Schroeder lead the team. Rumors side with this as well.

The Hawks are open to trading both of them as far as I know, doesn't mean it's one or the other. But if the Hawks really are going to trade Teague, the Kings need to have a back up plan in case Rondo doesn't come back and Teague would be a good replacement.

 

[kingsboi]

I'm simply not convinced that Rondo helps a team win at this stage in his career. I'm not thinking the Kings will instead use that caproom to sign a star player, only that I'm far from convinced that signing Rondo to a massive contract and hitting the salary cap to keep together a core that struggled to win 30 games is a good idea.

Boston arguably got better after trading Rondo. Toronto demonstrably improved after dealing Rudy Gay for spare parts. Why some fans tend to think that a team built around Rondo/Gay/Cousins can succeed despite the evidence so far is beyond me.

Personally I'd love to trade Gay, not sign Rondo and build a team around Cousins closer to what Houston did around Olajuwon or what SVG did around Dwight and is now trying to do around Drummond. Maybe Gay goes to Atlanta in a three way deal that sends Teague to Houston and nets the Kings some older 3&D guys in Ariza and Sefolosha. Then the caproom is used on Anderson instead of re-signing Rondo.

Collison/Curry/???
Sefalosha/McLemore and/or Belinelli
Ariza/Casspi/???
Cauley-Stein/Anderson/Acy
Cousins/Koufos/???

along with a lottery pick and a minor signing or two sounds a LOT better to me than returning with Rondo/McLemore/Gay/WCS/Cousins with a rookie being the only key addition.

Part of my bias with Rondo is that I'm not a fan of ball dominant PGs in today's NBA. They become one dimensional and easy to gameplan for, especially in the playoffs versus a team where everyone moves the ball.

I have to admit, a month or two ago I did not want anything to do with Rondo. I still don't think he will resign here but that's beside the point. I too agree that you can't move forward with Gay, Cousins and Rondo...they just aren't going to get you where you need to go IMO. That being said, I'd build the core around Rondo, Cousins and Trill and add complimentary pieces or just keep some of the parts here. I'm going to give Rondo a little more lee way here and give him another chance to change his defensive ways with a slowed down pace and a new head coach, hypothetically speaking. Kings can't continue to toss aside talent and making roster changes every year and expect to get to the playoffs. Familiarity is key here. Rondo is familiar with Cousins and vice versa, so the odd man out here is Gay. The Kings need to go and give Atlanta a call or make a trade work, maybe a sign and trade including the likes of Kent Bazemore and fillers?

 

[G_M]

Yes, and he's also led the league in assists and restored his reputation as one of the preeminent rebounding/triple double guards in the NBA.

What Rondo does well he does so well it marks him as the designated weak defender (maybe, I still want to see him with a new coach) who's worth it. We can maybe find a better defensive PG, although few enough PGs aren't bad on that end. But we will be giving away enormous swaths of ground in other areas and threatening to return right back tot eh bottom of the league in assists.

People always talk rather vaguely about o we want a better defender, or oh in some fantasy scenario we are going to get a two way star, but that's not reality. Reality is that its possible to get a better defender. But given how few actually good, impact defending PGs there are, its not likely you are going to get one much past solid defensively. And its damn near guaranteed that for that honor you are going to lose a crapload of creativity, experience, and boardwork.

Throw in the fact that Boogie likes Rondo a lot, and that those two guys are effectively the leaders, with DC reemerging as a bench leader late in the season, and there is an obvious core to keep rather than ripping open unnecessary holes to go chase a pipedream. Upgrade the 2 and 3 defensively, start Boogie and a more experienced Willie, get a coach who emphasizes defense, do all that and a sloppy man defender at the PG is no longer any great disaster.

Should the Kings overpay to keep Rondo? Given his age and injury history (which IMO contributes to his inability to defend) what should the Kings offer?

 

[Bricklayer]

Should the Kings overpay to keep Rondo? Given his age and injury history (which IMO contributes to his inability to defend) what should the Kings offer?

I've mentioned before, I don't even know what the numbers are going to look like this summer. Everything is going to explode in crazy fashion. Let's say $10-$12 equivalent. And that's where people get scared of $16-$18, but I think that may end up being essentially the same salary. All just monopoly money. Also why Koufos and Bels may turn out to be deals even after their seasons, and Omri is practically the best $$ for $$ guy in the league.

 

[The_Jamal]

That's oft said, but saying nothing more then you'd rather let him walk. Mike Conley is not coming here. He has absolutely not one reason in the world to do so, and will have half the league pursuing him. We'll be lucky if Rajon himself wants to come back, let alone nabbing one of the Top 10 blue chippers on the market.

Oh if only!

What's your obsession with Rondo? Basically every statistic known to man says he makes us worse*

 

[biltalent]

Should the Kings overpay to keep Rondo? Given his age and injury history (which IMO contributes to his inability to defend) what should the Kings offer?

I can see us offering him a 3 year deal worth 50 mil. This amounts to ~11-14 mil per year under the old cap which seems to be a resonable price.

 

[206Fan]

The Hawks are open to trading both of them as far as I know, doesn't mean it's one or the other. But if the Hawks really are going to trade Teague, the Kings need to have a back up plan in case Rondo doesn't come back and Teague would be a good replacement.

I think it does mean one or the other. Both have 1 year remaining on their contract. Schroeder is on his rookie contract right now.

Yes the Hawks do have Schroeder's RFA rights, but rumors are that if he doesn't start, he wants out. If they extend Schroeder, Teague will likely leave for a starting job. If they extend Teague, and match Schroeder, Schroeder will be disgruntled.

You might say, "soooo, he doesn't have a say". Well, look at how the entire Goran Dragic scenario turned out. Constant locker-room problems that forced the Suns to trade both Dragic and IT.

1year rental of Teague could be interesting.

Who would you rather have if you're the Hawks? 22yearold PG vs. 27yearold PG

 

[KingMilz]

Oh if only!

What's your obsession with Rondo? Basically every statistic known to man says he makes us worse*

He makes Cousins per36 numbers look better which is the most important stat of them all

 

[KingMilz]

I think it does mean one or the other. Both have 1 year remaining on their contract. Schroeder is on his rookie contract right now.

Yes the Hawks do have Schroeder's RFA rights, but rumors are that if he doesn't start, he wants out. If they extend Schroeder, Teague will likely leave for a starting job. If they extend Teague, and match Schroeder, Schroeder will be disgruntled.

You might say, "soooo, he doesn't have a say". Well, look at how the entire Goran Dragic scenario turned out. Constant locker-room problems that forced the Suns to trade both Dragic and IT.

1year rental of Teague could be interesting.

Who would you rather have if you're the Hawks? 22yearold PG vs. 27yearold PG

Schroeder has looked like crap for a good part of this year (not really improved how they thought he would)I'm not as sure they want to get rid of Jeff unless they get another PG in return.

 

[Bricklayer]

Oh if only!

What's your obsession with Rondo? Basically every statistic known to man says he makes us worse*

11-12 36.9min 11.9pts (.448 .238 .597) 4.7reb 11.4ast 1.7stl 0.1blk 3.6TO .483TS% 17.5PER All-Star Team Record: 39-27
15-16 35.2min 11.9pts (.454 .365 .580) 6.0reb 11.7ast 2.0stl 0.1blk 3.9TO .506TS% 16.9PER

Rondo has answered his critics in spades this year. His game is all the way back, except for one thing. And I want to see that one thing with another coach and system. Meanwhile, he's one of the 10 most accomplished players ever to play for the Kings, and he gives us stature we do not have without him. Given the right coach players might come to play with Cuz and Rondo. They will not for Cuz and Collison.. That's just Cuz.

 

[KingMilz]

11-12 36.9min 11.9pts (.448 .238 .597) 4.7reb 11.4ast 1.7stl 0.1blk 3.6TO .483TS% 17.5PER All-Star Team Record: 39-27
15-16 35.2min 11.9pts (.454 .365 .580) 6.0reb 11.7ast 2.0stl 0.1blk 3.9TO .506TS% 16.9PER

Rondo has answered his critics in spades this year. His game is all the way back, except for one thing. And I want to see that one thing with another coach and system. Meanwhile, he's one of the 10 most accomplished players ever to play for the Kings, and he gives us stature we do not have without him. Given the right coach players might come to play with Cuz and Rondo. They will not for Cuz and Collison.. That's just Cuz.

14ppg 9.0apg 4.3rpg 43% FG 80% FT and equally horrific defense

 

[andjel]

View attachment 5670

14ppg 9.0apg 4.3rpg 43% FG 80% FT and equally horrific defense

where are his stats when his team won it all?

 

[KingMilz]

where are his stats when his team won it all?

Where were his elite defenders and 3 future HOFers? Where were all the wins this year with Rondo's stats?

 

[andjel]

Where were his elite defenders and 3 future HOFers? Where were all the wins this year with Rondo's stats?

you brought the guy who did not accomplish anything to compare with the guy who did.
Players history should matter.

 

[funkykingston]

you brought the guy who did not accomplish anything to compare with the guy who did.
Players history should matter.

Rondo has had some of the best numbers of his career this season. A season in which he was paired with the best big man in the league and a career 20 ppg scorer and they still struggled to win 30 games.

What that is starting to tell me about Rondo's history is that maybe he wasn't a key a cog in the Celtics success as I once believed.

Either that or his defense really has dropped off that precipitously.

Or maybe some of each. In any case I don't see how bringing back this same roster with a new coach gets the Kings where they need to go. Maybe you keep Rondo/WCS/Cousins and trade Gay for a starting wing that fits better and draft another? I don't know. But if the goal is to not just make the playoffs but build a team capable of being an actual contender, I'm not sure how you get there from here.

 

[andjel]

Rondo has had some of the best numbers of his career this season. A season in which he was paired with the best big man in the league and a career 20 ppg scorer and they still struggled to win 30 games.

What that is starting to tell me about Rondo's history is that maybe he wasn't a key a cog in the Celtics success as I once believed.

Either that or his defense really has dropped off that precipitously.

Or maybe some of each. In any case I don't see how bringing back this same roster with a new coach gets the Kings where they need to go. Maybe you keep Rondo/WCS/Cousins and trade Gay for a starting wing that fits better and draft another? I don't know. But if the goal is to not just make the playoffs but build a team capable of being an actual contender, I'm not sure how you get there from here.

All of those are possibilities. I think the jury is still out.
I do not think that Rondo by himself was THE guy on the Boston team, but I do not see 3 HOFs winning anything without him. Team sport stuff.

Might be the optimist, but hire a coach that will get team to buy in like Malone did, Doug type SG and I think we are at least on the LAC level.
Year-two of tweaks and gel, and Rondo/WCS/Cousins is a good base of a contender. Now Rondo will be getting older, but that is another story.

 

[funkykingston]

All of those are possibilities. I think the jury is still out.
I do not think that Rondo by himself was THE guy on the Boston team, but I do not see 3 HOFs winning anything without him. Team sport stuff.

Might be the optimist, but hire a coach that will get team to buy in like Malone did, Doug type SG and I think we are at least on the LAC level.
Year-two of tweaks and gel, and Rondo/WCS/Cousins is a good base of a contender. Now Rondo will be getting older, but that is another story.

The Clippers did improve from winning 32 games in 2010-2011 to winning 50 games every season(well, 40 games in the lockout shortened 2011-2012 season which equates to 50 wins in an 82 game season) for the last five years. But of course that also corresponds to Chris Paul's arrival.

Adding Chris Paul to the Clippers resulted in the equivalent of 21 more wins.
Adding Rajon Rondo to the Kings resulted in likely 2 or 3 more wins depending on if the Kings beat the Suns.

The difference between Rondo and Paul is that CP3 provides the same passing and nearly the same rebounding as Rondo but is a far better defender, far better shooter and functions as the main or secondary scorer when the team needs it.

Rondo/WCS/Cousins isn't really a core to me because it is still missing that secondary scorer who can shoulder the load when Cousins is out. I'd love to see the Kings take a big leap forward next season too but I think its beyond optimistic to say this roster can make a tweak or two and get to "the LAC level".

 

[LPKingsFan]

Might be the optimist, but hire a coach that will get team to buy in like Malone did, Doug type SG and I think we are at least on the LAC level.

The Clippers have won 50+ in four straight seasons!

Edit: funky beat me to it, and said it better, as usual...

 

[andjel]

The Clippers did improve from winning 32 games in 2010-2011 to winning 50 games every season(well, 40 games in the lockout shortened 2011-2012 season which equates to 50 wins in an 82 game season) for the last five years. But of course that also corresponds to Chris Paul's arrival.

Adding Chris Paul to the Clippers resulted in the equivalent of 21 more wins.
Adding Rajon Rondo to the Kings resulted in likely 2 or 3 more wins depending on if the Kings beat the Suns.

The difference between Rondo and Paul is that CP3 provides the same passing and nearly the same rebounding as Rondo but is a far better defender, far better shooter and functions as the main or secondary scorer when the team needs it.

Rondo/WCS/Cousins isn't really a core to me because it is still missing that secondary scorer who can shoulder the load when Cousins is out. I'd love to see the Kings take a big leap forward next season too but I think its beyond optimistic to say this roster can make a tweak or two and get to "the LAC level".

Adding Chris Paul and Griffin resulted in the equivalent of 21 more wins.
Clips were 29 winning team before both, Paul and Griffin, in other words, Clips team was performing as Kings team with Cuz before either of their top two players showed up.

Agree with the assessment of Rondo vs Paul (except minor rebounding comment, 30%+ is not nearly).

Add JJ type of player to Kings (starting SG) and I do not see talent gap between Paul/JJ/Green/Griffin/DJ vs Rondo/JJ/Guy/WCS/Cuz with expecting WCS to be starting quality player next year.

Yes, with a proper coach that can fit pieces together and SG (JJ/Doug type) we are 50+ win team.

 

[funkykingston]

Adding Chris Paul and Griffin resulted in the equivalent of 21 more wins.
Clips were 29 winning team before both, Paul and Griffin, in other words, Clips team was performing as Kings team with Cuz before either of their top two players showed up.

Blake and CP3 didn't arrive the same year. Griffin was actually drafted two years before Paul arrived but of course he lost a year due to injury. The next year he was the ROY and leading scorer and rebounder (22.5 ppg, 12 rpg) while playing all 82 games. That team had Griffin, it had Jordan, and it had Bledsoe. The biggest change was adding Chris Paul the next year. And Redick has been a nice piece but he's only been on the team for the past three seasons. They were already winning 50+ games before his addition.

The very season the Clippers put together their core (star big in Griffin, star PG in Paul and high level role player big in Jordan) they immediately started winning. The rest of the roster has shifted quite a bit over the last few seasons but those three key players catapulted the team into being a playoff squad and contender.

My point being that if Rondo/WCS/Cousins were the same type of core the Kings wouldn't be tanking these last few games to keep yet another top 10 pick. They didn't need other pieces to make it work. So I'm just not convinced the Kings have a core that can be similarly successful, even with some added role players. But if they are going to move forward with Rondo I certainly hope Rudy Gay is traded. SOMETHING has to change with this often lackluster starting 5 and maybe the Kings will see the same boost that Toronto got when they shipped out a ball dominant Rudy whose efficiency plummets when tasked with being the main scorer.

Agree with the assessment of Rondo vs Paul (except minor rebounding comment, 30%+ is not nearly).

This season, sure. But this is also Rondo's best rebounding season. For their careers Rondo only averages 0.4 more rebounds per game than Paul. And even per 36 the difference is less than a rebound per game.

Add JJ type of player to Kings (starting SG) and I do not see talent gap between Paul/JJ/Green/Griffin/DJ vs Rondo/JJ/Guy/WCS/Cuz with expecting WCS to be starting quality player next year.

Yes, with a proper coach that can fit pieces together and SG (JJ/Doug type) we are 50+ win team.

I'd love to be that optimistic. I really would. But I came into this season just hoping the Kings could claw their way into the 7th or 8th spot over an aging Dallas team, a blown up Portland team, a Houston squad in disarray and a Jazz team that was dealt a blow losing their best on ball defender and starting PG and who missed the playoffs last year. Instead this team was pretty awful, at times just getting run off the floor by hungrier teams like that terrible game in Mexico against the Celtics.

Brick thinks with a new coach Rondo will stop being an awful defender and return somewhere near his championship days in Boston on that end of the floor. You think the Kings are a SG, a new coach and a tweak or two away from being a 50+ win team. I just don't see it. Maybe that's because every time I do get my hopes up that the Kings are going to turn a corner they fall flat and disappoint me yet again. We'll see I guess.