The 'treadmill' debate... again... (split from the Bucks [Game] thread)

[ockingsfan]

When everyone in your main core is 26 years old or younger, the Kings are definitely not on a treadmill.

Fox, Sabonis, Keegan, Huerter, Mitchell, Monk and TD are all 26 or under. Only the 30 year old Barnes is currently at his peak and he may not be considered a core player going forward. This explosive offensive team has a lot of room to grow and get better. Their defense is evolving and they are going to get better.

This team is a good 3 to 4 years before hitting their peak. In 3-4 years time, we could be seeing a perennial championship contending team.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

There's a certain type of person that's attracted to a losing sports team's fan message board. I imagine it is a comfortable place for an emotional vampire that subsists on anguish.

 

[kingsfan101]

This is the straw man of all straw mans. You've been ranting now for over a year about how "Middle Manager Monte" is running this team into the ground and will be fired before this season is over once his sheer incompetence becomes apparent...

And NOW when the team Monte put together is actually playing well to the tune of a top 5 in the league offense and a defense which is trending somewhere in the range of respectable you're going to argue that the team is treadmilling because we didn't beat a Bucks team on the road that just won the last NBA championship? Sabonis is 26. Fox, Metu, and Davis are 25. Huerter, Monk, and Mitchell are 24. Okpala is 23. Murray is 22. That's 9 of the top 11 guys in minutes played so far who are all 26 or under. Monte will have somewhere around 80 million in cap space to spend in the 2024 off-season to re-sign Sabonis (and Monk possibly?) and add another piece. Nothing about this situation suggests we are treadmilling.

Let's talk about Keegan Murray - the "4/3 #4 pick" Monte took instead of future superstars Paulo Banchero or Jaden Ivey. Keegan Murray does 2 things those two don't do: he hits outside shots at a league average rate and he defends his position. Banchero has led Orlando to a 6-20 record. He's averaging 21ppg but shooting 24% from range. Ivey has another #1 pick (Cade Cunningham) playing alongside him and together they've led Detroit to a 7-20 record. He's shooting a little better than Banchero at 31% from deep. Both are averaging nearly 3 TOs per game.

Let's talk about Kevin Huerter - the guy Monte traded a future first for. Huerter is shooting 7 threes a game and making 42% of them. He has a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio. He's signed for three more years and he's currently an above average starter being paid like a bench player. That contract is going to allow us to go out and get another piece in free agency in the next couple years without tip-toeing into luxury tax territory.

Let's talk about Tyrese Haliburton and the 2020 draft. What jumps out to me about this draft is that nearly the entire top 10 has busted. Yes it's too early to say that definitively but I think we can say that Tyrese Haliburton, Desmond Bane, and Tyrese Maxey appear to be the only stars here and they were taken 12th, 30th, and 21st respectively. Tank for a superstar? I have previously argued that strategy only works about 1 year in 10. Now I think that was being overly generous. Here's the last 10 first overall picks:

(2013) Anthony Bennett (2014) Andrew Wiggins (2015) Karl Towns (2016) Ben Simmons (2017) Markelle Fultz
(2018) DeAndre Ayton (2019) Zion Williamson (2020) Anthony Edwards (2021) Cade Cunningham (2022) Paulo Banchero

Three of these guys went to Minnesota! Three! They're currently 11th in the Western Conference at 12-12 and have won 3 playoff games in the last 18 years. Two of these guys went to Philadelphia. Both of them are gone. The Sixers are also 12-12 which puts them 8th in the Eastern Conference. The last time they got past the second round of the playoffs the team was still led by Allen Iverson. The Kings are a better team this year than both of those teams with a younger roster and a better salary cap situation. So are Haliburton's Pacers.

If anything, the treadmill to mediocrity is bottoming out for a top pick and then expecting them to lead your garbage team to the promised land (*cough* Marvin Bagley). Taking a great team basketball player at #4 instead of swinging big on a highlight reel darling is frankly the best basketball-related decision this franchise has made in the last 20 years. Hiring a journeyman coach who understands the league and values defense is right up there. Trading Tyrese Haliburton hurt -- he's playing like the All-Star we all know he is this season and I'm happy for him and the Pacers. It was also the right decision. Domantas Sabonis is the focal point of a top 5 offense and arguably a top 5 center in the league right now.

Bad teams stockpile talent. Good teams know that fit is everything. Fox, Huerter, Murray, Barnes, and Sabonis is a unit that makes sense not just on paper but in real NBA games. They have a very good coach who holds them accountable and has them in a position to win most games both at home and on the road. This roster is the culmination of Monte McNair's efforts since he took the job and the Kings are the huge success story of the season so far. Treadmilling? Seriously? That would be laughably inaccurate from a casual NBA fan but from a dedicated basketball nut and Kings fan like yourself it's something else. I'm not mad about it, but it does feel like you're bending over backwards to find something to complain about. I'm wondering how long it will take for you to give up your anti-Monte crusade, admit defeat, and join the rest of us in celebrating a good thing.

Wow! Brilliant.

 

[Remi]

Treadmilling? Seriously? That would be laughably inaccurate from a casual NBA fan but from a dedicated basketball nut and Kings fan like yourself it's something else. I'm not mad about it, but it does feel like you're bending over backwards to find something to complain about. I'm wondering how long it will take for you to give up your anti-Monte crusade, admit defeat, and join the rest of us in celebrating a good thing.

Seems some people are stuck in time with that freaky love of Hali and looking for slightest reason to moan - so of course after each loss these people will do "treadmilling" .....

 

[kb02]

This is the straw man of all straw mans. You've been ranting now for over a year about how "Middle Manager Monte" is running this team into the ground and will be fired before this season is over once his sheer incompetence becomes apparent...

And NOW when the team Monte put together is actually playing well to the tune of a top 5 in the league offense and a defense which is trending somewhere in the range of respectable you're going to argue that the team is treadmilling because we didn't beat a Bucks team on the road that just won the last NBA championship? Sabonis is 26. Fox, Metu, and Davis are 25. Huerter, Monk, and Mitchell are 24. Okpala is 23. Murray is 22. That's 9 of the top 11 guys in minutes played so far who are all 26 or under. Monte will have somewhere around 80 million in cap space to spend in the 2024 off-season to re-sign Sabonis (and Monk possibly?) and add another piece. Nothing about this situation suggests we are treadmilling.

Let's talk about Keegan Murray - the "4/3 #4 pick" Monte took instead of future superstars Paulo Banchero or Jaden Ivey. Keegan Murray does 2 things those two don't do: he hits outside shots at a league average rate and he defends his position. Banchero has led Orlando to a 6-20 record. He's averaging 21ppg but shooting 24% from range. Ivey has another #1 pick (Cade Cunningham) playing alongside him and together they've led Detroit to a 7-20 record. He's shooting a little better than Banchero at 31% from deep. Both are averaging nearly 3 TOs per game.

Let's talk about Kevin Huerter - the guy Monte traded a future first for. Huerter is shooting 7 threes a game and making 42% of them. He has a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio. He's signed for three more years and he's currently an above average starter being paid like a bench player. That contract is going to allow us to go out and get another piece in free agency in the next couple years without tip-toeing into luxury tax territory.

Let's talk about Tyrese Haliburton and the 2020 draft. What jumps out to me about this draft is that nearly the entire top 10 has busted. Yes it's too early to say that definitively but I think we can say that Tyrese Haliburton, Desmond Bane, and Tyrese Maxey appear to be the only stars here and they were taken 12th, 30th, and 21st respectively. Tank for a superstar? I have previously argued that strategy only works about 1 year in 10. Now I think that was being overly generous. Here's the last 10 first overall picks:

(2013) Anthony Bennett (2014) Andrew Wiggins (2015) Karl Towns (2016) Ben Simmons (2017) Markelle Fultz
(2018) DeAndre Ayton (2019) Zion Williamson (2020) Anthony Edwards (2021) Cade Cunningham (2022) Paulo Banchero

Three of these guys went to Minnesota! Three! They're currently 11th in the Western Conference at 12-12 and have won 3 playoff games in the last 18 years. Two of these guys went to Philadelphia. Both of them are gone. The Sixers are also 12-12 which puts them 8th in the Eastern Conference. The last time they got past the second round of the playoffs the team was still led by Allen Iverson. The Kings are a better team this year than both of those teams with a younger roster and a better salary cap situation. So are Haliburton's Pacers.

If anything, the treadmill to mediocrity is bottoming out for a top pick and then expecting them to lead your garbage team to the promised land (*cough* Marvin Bagley). Taking a great team basketball player at #4 instead of swinging big on a highlight reel darling is frankly the best basketball-related decision this franchise has made in the last 20 years. Hiring a journeyman coach who understands the league and values defense is right up there. Trading Tyrese Haliburton hurt -- he's playing like the All-Star we all know he is this season and I'm happy for him and the Pacers. It was also the right decision. Domantas Sabonis is the focal point of a top 5 offense and arguably a top 5 center in the league right now.

Bad teams stockpile talent. Good teams know that fit is everything. Fox, Huerter, Murray, Barnes, and Sabonis is a unit that makes sense not just on paper but in real NBA games. They have a very good coach who holds them accountable and has them in a position to win most games both at home and on the road. This roster is the culmination of Monte McNair's efforts since he took the job and the Kings are the huge success story of the season so far. Treadmilling? Seriously? That would be laughably inaccurate from a casual NBA fan but from a dedicated basketball nut and Kings fan like yourself it's something else. I'm not mad about it, but it does feel like you're bending over backwards to find something to complain about. I'm wondering how long it will take for you to give up your anti-Monte crusade, admit defeat, and join the rest of us in celebrating a good thing.

Sigh. How about you print receipts when the Kings actually win something.

 

[macadocious]

Sigh. How about you print receipts when the Kings actually win something.

 

[KainLear]

Sigh. How about you print receipts when the Kings actually win something.

and just maybe, if this person is not the kind of coward who hides afterward, we can finally get the answer to...

do you prefer your crows sautéed?

 

[Padrino]

and just maybe, if this person is not the kind of coward who hides afterward, we can finally get the answer to...

Unlikely. All of this "treadmill" nonsense is just goalpost-moving and groundwork-laying for the next phase of trolling should shaka not shake, should Monte McNair not get fired, and should the Kings remain in the top-6 by season's end. As more long-term projections place the Kings in the playoffs, a troll must prep a new line of instigation, because heaven forbid the data reveals that the Kings have improved significantly in a host of key metrics, and that this improvement could actually be sustainable.

 

[The_Jamal]

Unlikely. All of this "treadmill" nonsense is just goalpost-moving and groundwork-laying for the next phase of trolling should shaka not shake, should Monte McNair not get fired, and should the Kings remain in the top-6 by season's end. As more long-term projections place the Kings in the playoffs, a troll must prep a new line of instigation, because heaven forbid the data reveals that the Kings have improved significantly in a host of key metrics, and that this improvement could actually be sustainable.

In reality, he's just bad at admitting when he's wrong. A certain archetype of people are very prone to just never own up to a bad take and just take their medicine.

I mean, technically, all of us were wrong. I don't think anyone outside the top 5% of homers actually expected the Kings to play as well as they have through 25 games.

 

[KainLear]

I mean, technically, all of us were wrong. I don't think anyone outside the top 5% of homers actually expected the Kings to play as well as they have through 25 games.

100%. I was so disillusioned when we traded Ty, whom I still love dearly as a player, and as a brief representative of Sac town, when we seemingly were moving toward a better path.

And if you can't find enjoyment from this, just the fact that the team has transitioned into a positive force moving forward with the right management and right personnel, I just don't know why one would even spend time on this form of entertainment.

 

[Woot!]

TBH, what's curious to me at that this point is that so many of you still insist on engaging kb02 on this.

 

[KainLear]

TBH, what's curious to me at that this point is that so many of you still insist on engaging kb02 on this.

Same reason I watch the Kings, it entertains me.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

In reality, he's just bad at admitting when he's wrong. A certain archetype of people are very prone to just never own up to a bad take and just take their medicine.

I mean, technically, all of us were wrong. I don't think anyone outside the top 5% of homers actually expected the Kings to play as well as they have through 25 games.

I thought we could win 50 in the best scenario, apparently we're ahead of that pace, I was expecting us to struggle early. Blown out of the water.

 

[Spike]

In reality, he's just bad at admitting when he's wrong. A certain archetype of people are very prone to just never own up to a bad take and just take their medicine.

I mean, technically, all of us were wrong. I don't think anyone outside the top 5% of homers actually expected the Kings to play as well as they have through 25 games.

I don't think even the homers could have described HOW the Kings would have pulled it off, either. The most efficient offense combined with an increasingly effective defense?

Nonsense.

 

[hrdboild]

Sigh. How about you print receipts when the Kings actually win something.

Deal.

 

[kb02]

I don't think even the homers could have described HOW the Kings would have pulled it off, either. The most efficient offense combined with an increasingly effective defense?

Nonsense.

On display the last few games.

 

[Spike]

On display the last few games.

Glad to see you're back.

 

[Kingz19]

In reality, he's just bad at admitting when he's wrong. A certain archetype of people are very prone to just never own up to a bad take and just take their medicine.

I mean, technically, all of us were wrong. I don't think anyone outside the top 5% of homers actually expected the Kings to play as well as they have through 25 games.

I’ve tried to not comment on it. I remember him being a serious every day poster who contributed to game threads and wanted the team to do well. I figured he just hit bottom in disillusionment that he became the Randy Quaid character from Major League 2.

Now he would rather not post here if the team is doing well and has a “here’s Johnny” attitude whenever he appears when the Kings lose.

What brought on this evolution?

The same way all trolls are created. He was a serious poster who had a hot take about DeAaron Fox last season. His take wasn’t unreasonable but he began to enjoy the reaction he got out of it. So he would repeat the same takes with a little extra absurdity added to it each time for reaction(lest we forget Mo Williams) that it became somewhat of a gimmick. Well, his Fox gimmick has pretty much extended to the entire team and organization. Atleast when he posts here. Maybe he enjoys the Kings winning in other forums.

Fox can kill it for a month, but if he’s average for a week then that week is who he is. Kings can consistently have a top 5 offense through the first quarter of the season, but the week that they don’t, that’s just who they are…and of course, Fox is so mid that it hardly matters to the offense that he had been out.

as for the subject..Kings aren’t treadmilling. They have a clear path to build a contender. They don’t have all the pieces now and are uneven in spots… but they are constructed as such that they can build a contender as a 10 deep team..or they can potentially add a player better than both Domas and Fox without altering the team identity and how they play. It’s exciting times. Teams don’t go from the cellar to contender. They usually have to become middle of the pack first. They aren’t treadmilling if they do so long as they are trending upwards and have room for improvement.

 

[kb02]

I’ve tried to not comment on it. I remember him being a serious every day poster who contributed to game threads and wanted the team to do well. I figured he just hit bottom in disillusionment that he became the Randy Quaid character from Major League 2.

Now he would rather not post here if the team is doing well and has a “here’s Johnny” attitude whenever he appears when the Kings lose.

What brought on this evolution?

The same way all trolls are created. He was a serious poster who had a hot take about DeAaron Fox last season. His take wasn’t unreasonable but he began to enjoy the reaction he got out of it. So he would repeat the same takes with a little extra absurdity added to it each time for reaction(lest we forget Mo Williams) that it became somewhat of a gimmick. Well, his Fox gimmick has pretty much extended to the entire team and organization. Atleast when he posts here. Maybe he enjoys the Kings winning in other forums.

Fox can kill it for a month, but if he’s average for a week then that week is who he is. Kings can consistently have a top 5 offense through the first quarter of the season, but the week that they don’t, that’s just who they are…and of course, Fox is so mid that it hardly matters to the offense that he had been out.

as for the subject..Kings aren’t treadmilling. They have a clear path to build a contender. They don’t have all the pieces now and are uneven in spots… but they are constructed as such that they can build a contender as a 10 deep team..or they can potentially add a player better than both Domas and Fox without altering the team identity and how they play. It’s exciting times. Teams don’t go from the cellar to contender. They usually have to become middle of the pack first. They aren’t treadmilling if they do so long as they are trending upwards and have room for improvement.

Meh. Mo Williams has a better resume than Fox. Monte traded the wrong PG. Not supporting this team until that middling GM is fired.

 

[The_Jamal]

Meh. Mo Williams has a better resume than Fox. Monte traded the wrong PG. Not supporting this team until that middling GM is fired.

I for one support your decision to not support the Kings until Monte is fired. (As long as you don't welch when he's still employed after the deadline)

 

[Spike]

Meh. Mo Williams has a better resume than Fox. Monte traded the wrong PG. Not supporting this team until that middling GM is fired.

And yet...you're here?

Monte's put together a roster and coach that currently has the Kings at 7th in the West. Sure, Vivek gonna Vivek and probably get in the way, but, there's an off-chance that he doesn't, and Monte gets extended to match up with Mike Brown (which, by all accounts, is the logical thing to do), and then what? Do you make middle-management claims for the next 3 years?

If the team is making you this surly, maybe take a step back and find a hobby that brings you joy - grousing has its place, for sure, and we're all certainly frustrated when it comes to winnable games (Knicks, etc.), but we also know that we're not in the top tier...yet. But we're also not in the bottom tier anymore. This team defies logic for sure, but some things don't really show up on a spreadsheet - I learned that many years ago as a lower-level coach.

IDK that I could be on a fan board as an anti-fan, especially this one. We have fans of other teams who regularly post and offer meaningful insight, and overall, this board has avoided the negativity and trolling that has permeated most of the internet. It's a place I enjoy escaping to, even when the Kings are doing poorly. Hell, @Mr. S£im Citrus wouldn't have known about Christina Hendricks if it weren't for me! (Archivists are fact-checking this statement.)

I'm not telling you HOW to fan, just letting you know how this board usually operates. There's more of a family vibe here for a reason, and I speak for a lot of the OGs who would probably like to keep it that way.

 

[The_Jamal]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1603086726557204480

Kings 4th hardest schedule to start the year, playing the 2nd hardest defensive schedule.

"bUt mIdDlE mAnAgEr mOnTe iS tReAdMiLlIng"

 

[Spike]

Let's see what happens in January - I'm guessing that SOS drops precipitously, and am hoping that other metrics rise accordingly.

 

[KF8]

For most franchises yes it would be considered treadmilling, but for a franchise that hasn't made the playoffs for 16 years breaking the playoff drought will feel like winning a championship lol. We're the exception to the rule since we've been so bad for so long. I know as Kings fans our standards are low but we have to start somewhere and it's also encouraging that our core doesn't consist of old aging players.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

For most franchises yes it would be considered treadmilling, but for a franchise that hasn't made the playoffs for 16 years breaking the playoff drought will feel like winning a championship lol. We're the exception to the rule since we've been so bad for so long. I know as Kings fans our standards are low but we have to start somewhere and it's also encouraging that our core doesn't consist of old aging players.

I wouldn't even consider it accurate to say that it'd be true for "most franchises." Whether it's what [insert poster's name here] would do or not, the Kings are definitely moving forward in an intended direction. Whether they succeed in arriving at their intended destination or not, there is tangible evidence of them advancing towards that goal. They are closer to where they are headed than they were when they started; that's literally the opposite of a treadmill.

 

[KainLear]

Meh. Mo Williams has a better resume than Fox. Monte traded the wrong PG. Not supporting this team until that middling GM is fired.

Finally, I wholeheartedly support this.

Please be safe, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

[KF8]

I wouldn't even consider it accurate to say that it'd be true for "most franchises." Whether it's what [insert poster's name here] would do or not, the Kings are definitely moving forward in an intended direction. Whether they succeed in arriving at their intended destination or not, there is tangible evidence of them advancing towards that goal. They are closer to where they are headed than they were when they started; that's literally the opposite of a treadmill.

Yea I think time will tell, but at least we have some kind of direction as you said. The Kings are probably a fringe play-in/playoff team at the moment which is a monumental accomplishment since we haven't made the playoffs in 16 years. The next step should be to become a consistent upper echelon playoff team. A lot of that will depend on whether Fox will be able to revert back to how he was playing earlier this season and being consistent and Murray making significant improvements. If those two things takes shape, the Kings could be a good draft pick/signing/trade away from being an upper seed perennial playoff team. It's still a big "if" whether Murray will make a significant improvement and whether Fox could make the big leap though, so we shall see.

I see our rebuild very similar to the Suns. It was not too long ago where the Suns and Kings were really close record wise. (They may have been even worse than the Kings). Like booker, if Fox could make a leap then we should be in great shape. Meanwhile I don't think Fox will become as good as Booker, if he could come close then that is more than we can ask for. They also drafted Mikal Bridges.. which could be similar to what we are doing with Murray. If Murray can develop the same way Mikal can then that will bold well for the future. They have Ayton while we have Sabonis and we already know what those 2 guys can bring on a nightly basis. The move that really elevated and put it all together for them was acquiring Chris Paul. Meanwhile Chris Paul is a shell of his former self he fits the Suns like a glove. Who will be that player that Chris Paul is to the suns for the Kings is yet to be determined, but we will see how things pan out.

 

[See_Hanks]

Seems some people are stuck in time with that freaky love of Hali and looking for slightest reason to moan - so of course after each loss these people will do "treadmilling" .....

Come on now.. I love Hali, and I would rather have him than Fox because of Fox's recent injuries in the past few years. BUT, I am not going to disparage this team as some middle of the road playoff tune-up team for other teams that have a chance to win it all. We are basically a new'ish team and a lot of our guys haven't had enough time together to even come close to guessing their potential. Remember with Webber, Divac, Peja we went through a 27-23 team that was #7 I think and we were out in the first round, then a 8th seed where we were out in the first round, then in the 3rd year we finally won a playoff series.

With that team we had JWILL, Tariq Abdul-Wahad, Williamson, Weber, Divac, which changed to JWILL, Anderson, Peja, Weber, Divac, which chanced to Bibby, Christie, Peja, Weber and Divac when we won our first series. This team might need some tweaking. I think Barnes could be replaced by a guy like Bojan Bogdanovich and we could keep Monk as 6th man. Possibly find replacement for Keegan if he doesn't work out. Trade deadline will be important this year. We are a good team, but we can be better!

 

[Das_Boot]

Come on now.. I love Hali, and I would rather have him than Fox because of Fox's recent injuries in the past few years. BUT, I am not going to disparage this team as some middle of the road playoff tune-up team for other teams that have a chance to win it all. We are basically a new'ish team and a lot of our guys haven't had enough time together to even come close to guessing their potential. Remember with Webber, Divac, Peja we went through a 27-23 team that was #7 I think and we were out in the first round, then a 8th seed where we were out in the first round, then in the 3rd year we finally won a playoff series.

I'm still kinda confused by your assertion that Fox misses a lot of time with injuries. I'd think this season with him playing through an injury over several games until the team decided to sit him (Brown's interview pretty explicitly said it was their decision, not his) would have dispelled that notion. He's missed what, 3 games so far?

 

[New Era]

I feel like a lot of his "injuries" in years past were just minor but they sat him to embrace the tank