The trading of Domantas Sabonis.

hrdboild said:
Unless that Something spot in the starting lineup is filled by a First Team All-Defense player, I don't think there's enough defense in this rotation to be any better than a 7 seed (play-in) level squad next year. This is basically the same squad we have right now that's in the mid 20's in defensive rating minus DeRozan plus some unknown PF who we'll be able to get with no cap space, no first round draft pick, and only DeRozan to dangle as trade bait. I don't see how that works. And by the end of next season, can we even afford to keep Keon Ellis if we still have $115 million tied up in paying LaVine, Sabonis, and Monk?
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Monte might've known exactly what he was doing this last draft, lets see how Carter develops. Those are legit stopper tools. If you have a big that can reliably switch with it there is no excuse for a teams defense to not jump.
 
SacTownKid said:
Monte might've known exactly what he was doing this last draft, lets see how Carter develops. Those are legit stopper tools. If you have a big that can reliably switch with it there is no excuse for a teams defense to not jump.
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Trading for a guy like Cam Johnson and then having a Devin Carter make the leap to handle being a starting PG is intriguing…

PG - Carter
SG - LaVine
SF - Johnson
PF - Murray
C - Sabonis

That’s A LOT of shooting 2-4 so I could see that working with Carter and Sabonis, and then you have Carter and Murray as your defensive stoppers and Johnson as a solid third defender.

Obviously this depends on Carter taking a leap this offseason as a lead ball handler but crazier things have happened. ;)
 
SacTownKid said:
Monte might've known exactly what he was doing this last draft, lets see how Carter develops. Those are legit stopper tools. If you have a big that can reliably switch with it there is no excuse for a teams defense to not jump.
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I like Carter but this team is not one player away from being a good defensive squad and he actually needs to be on the floor for his defensive ability to matter. We need an entirely new frontcourt rotation just as a start. If Carter is the starting PG that gets us further along but it leaves us with no defenders on the bench.

Any way you break it down there are more holes to fill now than there were at the start of this season and that's on a team that's going to win 39 or 40 games. If we had $50 million in cap space there would be some reason to continue on with this core but this is a sub .500 team with two max players that's nowhere close to being relevant. If this were any other team in the league we were talking about, it would be obvious to everyone here that it's time to blow it up. It might be harder to see that when we've already invested so much emotionally in the players who finally clawed us back into a playoff series though.
 
hrdboild said:
I like Carter but this team is not one player away from being a good defensive squad and he actually needs to be on the floor for his defensive ability to matter. We need an entirely new frontcourt rotation just as a start. If Carter is the starting PG that gets us further along but it leaves us with no defenders on the bench.

Any way you break it down there are more holes to fill now than there were at the start of this season and that's on a team that's going to win 39 or 40 games. If we had $50 million in cap space there would be some reason to continue on with this core but this is a sub .500 team with two max players that's nowhere close to being relevant. If this were any other team in the league we were talking about, it would be obvious to everyone here that it's time to blow it up. It might be harder to see that when we've already invested so much emotionally in the players who finally clawed us back into a playoff series though.
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Of course no one player is turning a team, but especially on ball guards can have a pretty big impact. That's why those archetypes are so valuable at the moment. Teams that can get tons of production out of their main weapons can usually find a balance. Right now the issue is certainly too many cooks in the kitchen offensively but outside of DeMar this team isn't old and cap space was never the way for a team like the Kings. The good teams accentuate the positives of the talent they do have and develop the players they need. I see both things happening on those fronts which for the Kings was always a huge issue. So there's that for "it could be worse", haha. Right now this summer is about Domas and DeMar and whether they want to stick it out and if they don't the Kings should be able to get some decent goodies back for one or both.
 
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hrdboild said:
Unless that Something spot in the starting lineup is filled by a First Team All-Defense player, I don't think there's enough defense in this rotation to be any better than a 7 seed (play-in) level squad next year. This is basically the same squad we have right now that's in the mid 20's in defensive rating minus DeRozan plus some unknown PF who we'll be able to get with no cap space, no first round draft pick, and only DeRozan to dangle as trade bait. I don't see how that works. And by the end of next season, can we even afford to keep Keon Ellis if we still have $115 million tied up in paying LaVine, Sabonis, and Monk?
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This is of course very noisy being a 2-man lineup sample data, but our DRtg with Keon and Keegan on the floor is 108.6. 1069 minutes together on the floor, so pretty decent sample that they made a difference. That's our 12th most used 2-man pairing this season. Just for a comparison sake, that 108.6 DRtg would have us 2nd in the NBA in defense, 2 points behind the Thunder and .5 ahead of the Magic.

I'm not trying to claim at all that if we just played Keegan and Keon together a million minutes that we'd have the best defense in the league or something. But I think it's fairly clear that we didn't play our best 2 defenders on the floor together nearly enough, even though it clearly was a very effective pairing that helped us actually be competent on defense.
 
The_Jamal said:
This is of course very noisy being a 2-man lineup sample data, but our DRtg with Keon and Keegan on the floor is 108.6. 1069 minutes together on the floor, so pretty decent sample that they made a difference. That's our 12th most used 2-man pairing this season. Just for a comparison sake, that 108.6 DRtg would have us 2nd in the NBA in defense, 2 points behind the Thunder and .5 ahead of the Magic.

I'm not trying to claim at all that if we just played Keegan and Keon together a million minutes that we'd have the best defense in the league or something. But I think it's fairly clear that we didn't play our best 2 defenders on the floor together nearly enough, even though it clearly was a very effective pairing that helped us actually be competent on defense.
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you going to convince the guy you pay 45M a year to be a 6th man. I don’t disagree about Keon and Keegan. It’s why I hated the LaVine trade. Easily In the top 5 all time worst Kings trades.
 
The_Jamal said:
Keon
LaVine
Keegan
Another wing
Domas

Problem solved!
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Id be more worried about the offense with that lineup. Needs playmaking, a shot creator, and of course we don’t want someone that’s a liability defensively or kills the spacing. Just tough to check all those boxes.
 
TheMobb said:
Id be more worried about the offense with that lineup. Needs playmaking, a shot creator, and of course we don’t want someone that’s a liability defensively or kills the spacing. Just tough to check all those boxes.
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Yeah, I'm not disillusioned that we have a title core currently on the team. But I do think our best path forward is some version of LaVine/Domas/Keegan/Keon/Some sort of good defender/lower USG option if we do keep this core intact. That to me leads to a good/fun team, which, eh, I guess is probably good enough at this point. We know a tank is never happening with Vivek, no matter what a few posters might try to say around here.
 
The_Jamal said:
Yeah, I'm not disillusioned that we have a title core currently on the team. But I do think our best path forward is some version of LaVine/Domas/Keegan/Keon/Some sort of good defender/lower USG option if we do keep this core intact. That to me leads to a good/fun team, which, eh, I guess is probably good enough at this point. We know a tank is never happening with Vivek, no matter what a few posters might try to say around here.
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People need to come to grips with the reality of the West. Next year there might only be one bad team in the whole conference (Utah) and that number becomes zero if they get Coop. The Suns are up in the air but if Durant ends up in Minnesota, they would likely need to give up Randle and McDaniels in that deal. Book, Beal, McDaniels, Randle and Iggy could be competitive.

I’m a DC homer at this point but I just want to give him the starting job next year. 3 plus defenders in the starting unit keeps us competitive every night. Let’s find out what plenty of defense and not enough offense looks like, just to shake it up. Ask Keegan for more offensively. Ask Monk to cut loose off the bench and see how it goes. Draft Toohey or Dixon if you need more shooting or creation.
 
iowamcnabb said:
People need to come to grips with the reality of the West. Next year there might only be one bad team in the whole conference (Utah) and that number becomes zero if they get Coop. The Suns are up in the air but if Durant ends up in Minnesota, they would likely need to give up Randle and McDaniels in that deal. Book, Beal, McDaniels, Randle and Iggy could be competitive.

I’m a DC homer at this point but I just want to give him the starting job next year. 3 plus defenders in the starting unit keeps us competitive every night. Let’s find out what plenty of defense and not enough offense looks like, just to shake it up. Ask Keegan for more offensively. Ask Monk to cut loose off the bench and see how it goes. Draft Toohey or Dixon if you need more shooting or creation.
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I'd have a hard time believing a DC/Keon/Keegan core getting 30+ MPG a night would be bad defensively, even if it's small. You'd be asking Keegan to take a real scoring leap, but honestly, he's sort of shown he's ready for it. Mega efficient these last few months on basically no USG. Those are the markers you look for to see "Ok, what happens when I add 5% USG to your workload".

I also think we've had a real bad habit of just ignoring Domas in crunch time for the better part of 3 years. Like what would happen if we just kept him involved as the offensive hub and continued to run sets the WHOLE game and not devolve into ISO ball. I also like the idea that you can very easily close with Monk in those LU's too in lieu of Carter or Keon for your extra offensive burst in crunch time. Or if you need the stops, you play the 2 defenders.
 
sactowndog said:
Easily In the top 5 all time worst Kings trades.
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I sincerely doubt that, considering that Fox spiked the market about only signing with San Antonio and we got rid of Huerter's contract as well. We got back a very good player in Lavine and picks (two second rounders of which turned into JV immediately).

Derek Smith
DeMarcus Cousins / Omri Casspi
Isiah Thomas
Ralph Sampson
Beno Udrih and a higher pick for John Salmons and a lower pick (Jimmer Fredette)

I'm sure there's more, but personally I would consider all of these to be worse.
 
Lavine has had several poor games this year. Almost all of them came after the 3ish week layoff he had (paternal leave and trade) and the personal reasons absence. Having said that he is at 23 ppg on the season with 51/44/87 shooting splits as a King. Is there another player in the league producing like that who is not considered a very good to great player?
 
Warhawk said:
I sincerely doubt that, considering that Fox spiked the market about only signing with San Antonio and we got rid of Huerter's contract as well. We got back a very good player in Lavine and picks (two second rounders of which turned into JV immediately).

Derek Smith
DeMarcus Cousins / Omri Casspi
Isiah Thomas
Ralph Sampson
Beno Udrih and a higher pick for John Salmons and a lower pick (Jimmer Fredette)

I'm sure there's more, but personally I would consider all of these to be worse.
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I'd also add trading for the rights to Georgios to this list.
 
iowamcnabb said:
People need to come to grips with the reality of the West. Next year there might only be one bad team in the whole conference (Utah) and that number becomes zero if they get Coop. The Suns are up in the air but if Durant ends up in Minnesota, they would likely need to give up Randle and McDaniels in that deal. Book, Beal, McDaniels, Randle and Iggy could be competitive.

I’m a DC homer at this point but I just want to give him the starting job next year. 3 plus defenders in the starting unit keeps us competitive every night. Let’s find out what plenty of defense and not enough offense looks like, just to shake it up. Ask Keegan for more offensively. Ask Monk to cut loose off the bench and see how it goes. Draft Toohey or Dixon if you need more shooting or creation.
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I agree with all of this. I just don't see why we should consider LaVine, DeRozan, Monk and even Sabonis part of the core anymore if the starting lineup is going to be built around three guys who are all age 25 or younger in Keon Ellis, Keegan Murray, and Devin Carter. Keep the three young guys who play defense and trade the vets who either can't or don't want to expend effort on the defensive end and are filling up our salary cap and getting the lion's share of the minutes, making it impossible to fill other holes in the roster and rotation. Why not take a step back in the short-term in order to have a higher ceiling long-term than "maybe we'll squeak in as a lower seed playoff team"?
 
hrdboild said:
I agree with all of this. I just don't see why we should consider LaVine, DeRozan, Monk and even Sabonis part of the core anymore if the starting lineup is going to be built around three guys who are all age 25 or younger in Keon Ellis, Keegan Murray, and Devin Carter. Keep the three young guys who play defense and trade the vets who either can't or don't want to expend effort on the defensive end and are filling up our salary cap and getting the lion's share of the minutes, making it impossible to fill other holes in the roster and rotation. Why not take a step back in the short-term in order to have a higher ceiling long-term than "maybe we'll squeak in as a lower seed playoff team"?
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Because the guy who owns the team won't allow it? Why is this still even a question?
 
The_Jamal said:
Because the guy who owns the team won't allow it? Why is this still even a question?
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Well, tanking the team through pure misguided hubris to the point where fans lose interest completely appears to be all the rage this year (see also: Dallas) so at least he's got company.
 
hrdboild said:
I agree with all of this. I just don't see why we should consider LaVine, DeRozan, Monk and even Sabonis part of the core anymore if the starting lineup is going to be built around three guys who are all age 25 or younger in Keon Ellis, Keegan Murray, and Devin Carter. Keep the three young guys who play defense and trade the vets who either can't or don't want to expend effort on the defensive end and are filling up our salary cap and getting the lion's share of the minutes, making it impossible to fill other holes in the roster and rotation. Why not take a step back in the short-term in order to have a higher ceiling long-term than "maybe we'll squeak in as a lower seed playoff team"?
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I guess id like to see what a 3 defender, offensive hub and dynamo scorer shooter core can do for a season. I’m assuming Doug gets the gig. Bring in a different defensive philosophy like the Clippers did. They are a top 5 defense with the Beard and Norman Powell on the team. If Keegan, Keon, and Devin all saw 30 plus minutes and we have 2 defenders in the bench rotation (Jake and ?) can we be a good defensive team?

Maximize Sabonis and not just with DHOs

Let Monk be in the conversation for best 6th man every year.

Bring in a new defensive philosophy

If you are going to preach 40 plus threes actually do it instead of talk about it.

Start 3 defenders since you don’t have a rim protecting center.

a starting lineup of Devin, Keon, Lavine, Keegan and Sabonis should be one of the best shooting teams in the league. Double down on your strengths.

More options would open for us at the deadline. If things are looking bleak, the option to sell pieces off will be there and the 26 draft is looking awesome.

one last note, if the Heat don’t make the playoffs this year, they will be conveying unprotected first round picks for the next 2 years to the Thunder and the Hornets. They are going to want to get better next season and I think they are a great landing spot for Deebo should we decide to move him. Jaimie Jaquez is a guy I keep circling back to because he is another 6’7ish dude that plays with grit and would be a perfect piece off our bench.
 
I don't think it's the worst trade ever but acquiring Lavine hasn't exactly been a winning move. It's so odd, someone here pointed out that after drafting Carter Monte said he was the kind of guy you saw in the playoffs. But Lavine is obviously not that guy. It's like there are two different philosophies - and if you have a name we can forget everything else. If you don't have a name you probably deserve to be here.
 
Turgenev said:
I don't think it's the worst trade ever but acquiring Lavine hasn't exactly been a winning move. It's so odd, someone here pointed out that after drafting Carter Monte said he was the kind of guy you saw in the playoffs. But Lavine is obviously not that guy. It's like there are two different philosophies - and if you have a name we can forget everything else. If you don't have a name you probably deserve to be here.
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Let’s not forget how much cap space Lavine ties up. So when you had
1) the poor fit,
2) the blocking of Keon,
3) the tying up of cap space,
4) the fact you already saw the results of LaVine and Deebo is Chicago

It’s not a surprise other GM’s are literally saying the Kings are a mess. I stand by my statement the LaVine trade is easily in the top 5 worst trades.
 
If Zach doesn't work next season it should be easy enough to unload him. I am fine giving it one year to work. I just don't really see the fit with Domas and all things being equal I'd rather have Domas. And obviously we are trying to start three guys who really play the same position, we need to resolve that by shipping one and at minimum putting another on the bench. Doesn't matter who to me. Fix it. I love Monk but if we made separate moves with DDR and Monk we could really do something and still have Zach as an attractive expiring this year or next.
 
sactowndog said:
Let’s not forget how much cap space Lavine ties up. So when you had
1) the poor fit,
2) the blocking of Keon,
3) the tying up of cap space,
4) the fact you already saw the results of LaVine and Deebo is Chicago

It’s not a surprise other GM’s are literally saying the Kings are a mess. I stand by my statement the LaVine trade is easily in the top 5 worst trades.
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Top 5 worst for the Kings or the whole NBA ever?
 
Turgenev said:
I don't think it's the worst trade ever but acquiring Lavine hasn't exactly been a winning move. It's so odd, someone here pointed out that after drafting Carter Monte said he was the kind of guy you saw in the playoffs. But Lavine is obviously not that guy. It's like there are two different philosophies - and if you have a name we can forget everything else. If you don't have a name you probably deserve to be here.
Click to expand...

You pretty much have to have a scorer like LaVine if you want to even be remotely something. He's a player that can go get buckets. The trick now is about finding that balance. Will he be a guard that can win you a ring on his own? No, and almost no guard ever does but don't discount the talent level.
 
For all this lead guard talk, who is Boston's lead guard? They don't have a single player averaging over 6 apg this season. Pick and roll is the play, and there are different ways of attacking it. With a Domas, LaVine, and some of the other Kings talent shooting is probably more key than having a "PG". Again, if you have Domas, he's likely your PG. The rest is all pick and roll and spreading the floor. If Monte is trying to emulate Boston? Great idea, that's winning rings right now, get with it or get out. See what Carter can do development wise. He was one of the top pnr guards in college where it's a lot more difficult in terms of spacing. He can very easily develop into the player you need next to a playmaking SG.
 
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