The saga of Kobe and Karl (merged)

Gargamel said:
I'll agree with you on the specific point you made about Jackson (because that's more fair than saying Kobe got him fired). But Shaq is a different story. Shaq was money all the way. You may not have the slightest idea of how much Shaq can make over the next few years under the provisions of the old bargaining agreement. He wasn't about to take a paycut and when he was offered one, he demanded a trade to a list of specified teams. It's mindboggling to me how people forget that.

I'm not sticking up for my boy just because. I'm doing it because there are a lot of lingering misconceptions that bug me. You won't hear me say that Kobe doesn't have his problems. I can list what I think they are if you want me to, but I find that people who disliked the Lakers in the past are all of a sudden overlooking Shaq and Jax's foibles in their haste to castigate Bryant.
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I agree with you. I hate how people always willing to blame Kobe on everything. I see it alot I think no other superstar in any sport gets critized more then Kobe,. It is a shame since I think is most talented player in the NBA.
 
AleksandarN said:
I agree with you. I hate how people always willing to blame Kobe on everything. I see it alot I think no other superstar in any sport gets critized more then Kobe,. It is a shame since I think is most talented player in the NBA.
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All hail Aleksandar The Great! ;)
 
KA_2 said:
[font=&quot] No offense, but you clearly haven't followed the situation, at all. Phil himself said that he believed [font=&quot]Kobe[/font][font=&quot] had nothing to do with him not being resigned. He even said he understood why Buss decided to resign [/font][font=&quot]Kobe[/font][font=&quot] and trade Shaq, and that he might do the same thing in the same situation.

Shaq has also said the same thing, that Kupchak and Buss had far more to do with him being traded than [/font][font=&quot]Kobe[/font][font=&quot]. Of course, let's not forget Shaq asked to be traded in the first place.

The theories that [/font][font=&quot]Kobe[/font][font=&quot] somehow orchestrated all of this were cute in July, but they've been thoroughly debunked since. If you'd like more examples, I'd be willing to list why it's literally illogical to think [/font][font=&quot]Kobe[/font][font=&quot] orchestrated the breakup. At worst, he was one of three egos that couldn't coexist with the other two. That much can't be denied.
[/font][/font]
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This is laughable. Phil Jackson said he could not coach Kobe anymore so one of them had to go. Shaq did not like the way Jackson was let go and they then tried to bring in the coach Kobe wanted...Mike Krzy(no idea how to spell it)....and at that point Shaq knew that the team was going with Kobe and he wanted out and I frankly don't blame him. Regardless of what Kobe says the Lakers basically gave him everything he wanted and 137 million dollar contract so what was once a big head is now the size of Pluto.

According to Kobe this is his world and we are all living in it.
 
Ryle said:
This is laughable. Phil Jackson said he could not coach Kobe anymore so one of them had to go. Shaq did not like the way Jackson was let go and they then tried to bring in the coach Kobe wanted...Mike Krzy(no idea how to spell it)....and at that point Shaq knew that the team was going with Kobe and he wanted out and I frankly don't blame him. Regardless of what Kobe says the Lakers basically gave him everything he wanted and 137 million dollar contract so what was once a big head is now the size of Pluto.

According to Kobe this is his world and we are all living in it.
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This is laughable. Lets not forget about the insane contract extensions Phil was seeking in order to stay to the tune of 12 mil a year! He knew damn well he wasn't going to be paid that, Kobe or no Kobe.

As for Shaq he can cry all he wanted. Had he actually WENT to his exit interview like every other player instead of skipping it he would have knew about Phil not being in the plans. Instead he didn't deem it important and skipped it like he had the previous years.

Now as for Coach K, he's a very respected coach. NBA teams have been after him for over a decade now but he turns them down. It's reached the point that no one trys getting him because they feel he'll never leave Duke. This is not that first time LA had tried bringing him in but of course Kobe was the only reason.

Damn happy LA gave Kobe, top 5 player in the league, what he wanted. Any team that wouldn't try everything in their power to sign a player of Kobe's status what he wanted is a idiot.
 
Freakout said:
This is laughable. Lets not forget about the insane contract extensions Phil was seeking in order to stay to the tune of 12 mil a year! He knew damn well he wasn't going to be paid that, Kobe or no Kobe.

As for Shaq he can cry all he wanted. Had he actually WENT to his exit interview like every other player instead of skipping it he would have knew about Phil not being in the plans. Instead he didn't deem it important and skipped it like he had the previous years.

Now as for Coach K, he's a very respected coach. NBA teams have been after him for over a decade now but he turns them down. It's reached the point that no one trys getting him because they feel he'll never leave Duke. This is not that first time LA had tried bringing him in but of course Kobe was the only reason.

Damn happy LA gave Kobe, top 5 player in the league, what he wanted. Any team that wouldn't try everything in their power to sign a player of Kobe's status what he wanted is a idiot.
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Typical Laker myopia.
 
To be fair when the LA management faced the follwing issues they had tough choices to make:
Phill demads huge bucks
Shaq demads huge bucks
Kobe demands huge bucks
Phill will not coach Kobe
Shaq does not want to play with Kobe
Shaq does not want to paly with out PJ
Kobe does not want PJ to coach
Kobe wants games in Anaslime closer to his crib
The expiration date on Shaqs consideralbe butt reads "Best used before NBA finals 2004"
Shaq is still the most domant center in the NBA
Kobe IS one of the hottest properties in the NBA and young
As an FA Kobe can just walk leaving nothing but some cap space
Shaq is under contract (HUGE) and can be traded for an army of role-over players
Kobe's people skills are underdeveloped (understatment)
Kobe has his own ideas of how the team should look and play
PJ may well be over rated given the make up of the teams he has coached.

OK so in the world of NBA salery cap Kobe and Shaq become mutualy exclusive... one HAD to go. PJ's salery while not applicable to cap issues IS a buisness decision and IF management picks Kobe it is no longer an issue, IF they pick Shaq they are stuck with PJ.

So management decides that rather than hold on to two huge contracts of questionalbe value and a team that is increasingly long in the tooth, sacraficeing the youth and skills of the Kobster, they willl go young and rebuild; not necessarly a BAD decison in and of it's slef. BUT LA fans lets not be blind to what that ALSO means. The Kobe-centric Lakers creates numerous difficulties not the least of which is the defacto power/contoll the 20 something boy wonder weilds. Keeping him had opertunity costs, don't deny them.

The question for the futute of the team is how will these costs play out against what Kobe brings? Will top FA's WANT to play in LA? Can Capt. Mitch pull off any trades that will bring top tallent or will LA become for all intents and purposes Toronto South?
 
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HndsmCelt said:
Ya know I really don't care who's "fault" this fight is, I just love the Drama but what I will say is this:
Shaq Vs. Kobe (perenial fightduring their tenure)
Kobe Vs. his own parents
Kobe vs. Fisher, Fox et all. (not playing hard enough)
Kobe Vs. Phil (Phil calls him uncoacable and refuse to work with him)
Kobe Vs. various Hotel personal
Kobe Vs. Vanessa
Kob Vs. Malone

There IS a comon denominator in these public brawls from the land of 90210
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Do you have other "insider" facts you can present other than what the "reliable" media you've chosen to believe in? If so, please enlighten us.
 
LMAO, you're right. The media made everyting up. Kobe never had a problem in Vail, he and snaq actually got on famously, he never really had to buy his wife the 4 million dollar I'm sorry prize. He never said anything about Fox, or Fisher. Phil just made up that uncoachable stuff to sell books, and this last tiff with Malone? The media has it all wrong, there is no tiff. It's lies, all lies. Poor kobe.
 
Lamar_Odom said:
Do you have other "insider" facts you can present other than what the "reliable" media you've chosen to believe in? If so, please enlighten us.
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All I know is what I read in the papers. All I BELIVE is the information that matches what I see and the theories that BEST describe the facts as presented. But I suppose jsut like the creationist, and belivers in the paranormal, you have OTHER theories to explain what goes on DESPITE contray information.
 
As far as Shaq and his ridiculous contract demand, it was obvious he intended to rip the Lakers off with his performance. The Lakers can certainly the kind of contribution he is giving the heat but for the price? That's a total rip off.

Jackson's term with the Lakers ended. Buss wanted a Showtime type of basketball as opposed to the boring triangle. Like Shaq, his contract extension demand was unreasonable.

Now the Karl Malone incident is interesting. I fault Vanessa Bryant more than anything. She appears to have taken Karl's comments out of context. I don't know what she was tripping on. If all Karl said was that he was hunting young Mexican girls, which obviously was a joke, Vanessa was not big enough to make a joke out of it. Instead, she runs to Kobe acting like the victim. If anything, I fault Kobe for not setting his woman straight just like a lot of players do in the NBA today. In the end, it hurt the Lakers as Karl is now not going to return. Oh well. We knew from the start the Lakers are not going to win this year.

But without Kobe, what would posters like the author of this thread construct threads on?
 
HndsmCelt said:
All I know is what I read in the papers. All I BELIVE is the information that matches what I see and the theories that BEST describe the facts as presented. But I suppose jsut like the creationist, and belivers in the paranormal, you have OTHER theories to explain what goes on DESPITE contray information.
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So you really have nada other than the voices you hear from inside. OK. Makes sense.
 
Lamar_Odom said:
So you really have nada other than the voices you hear from inside. OK. Makes sense.
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NOTHING I said runs contrary to what has been WIDELY reported in the press, consistant with events and confrimed at least in part by the parties under discussion.
 
Kingsgurl said:
LMAO, you're right. The media made everyting up. Kobe never had a problem in Vail, he and snaq actually got on famously, he never really had to buy his wife the 4 million dollar I'm sorry prize. He never said anything about Fox, or Fisher. Phil just made up that uncoachable stuff to sell books, and this last tiff with Malone? The media has it all wrong, there is no tiff. It's lies, all lies. Poor kobe.
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I suppose that's how you see it based on your post. All I'm saying is somewhere between what has been said and what has not been said is the truth. We see what is being written and said and draw conclusions on it but there's a lot more to this that what is being said. Even you should agree to that. In short, we're making conclusions based on a lot of information we don't know. Tell me how accurate that is.
 
I've edited the thread and will reopen it - with these caveats:

If you take it into personal attacks against Kobe's wife, etc. it will be permanently closed.

If you make personal or snide comments directed at another member, it will be permanently closed.

The issue is an ongoing saga which I know can be discussed intelligently (at least on Kingsfans) without people resorting to name-calling, sniping, etc.
 
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VF21 said:
I've edited the thread and will reopen it - with these caveats:

If you take it into personal attacks against Kobe's wife, etc. it will be permanently closed.

If you make personal or snide comments directed at another member, it will be permanently closed.

The issue is an ongoing saga which I know can be discussed intelligently (at least on Kingsfans) without people resorting to name-calling, sniping, etc.
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can we at least bash Kobe ? Please !
;)
 
Kingsgurl said:
LMAO, you're right. The media made everyting up. Kobe never had a problem in Vail, he and snaq actually got on famously, he never really had to buy his wife the 4 million dollar I'm sorry prize. He never said anything about Fox, or Fisher. Phil just made up that uncoachable stuff to sell books, and this last tiff with Malone? The media has it all wrong, there is no tiff. It's lies, all lies. Poor kobe.
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The media didn't make up Kobe's Vail situation, but they were very nefarious in how they presented the story. The media has the power to shape its viewers' emotions and opinions.

What did Kobe say about Fox or Fisher that Shaq hasn't?

Phil's opinion is his opinion, but that don't mean Kobe forced him out, which is the commonly held belief.

The last tiff with Malone you could attribute to Kobe's wife and Karl. I don't see how Kobe has any blame whatsoever. He tried to keep the matters closed-door to boot.
 
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HndsmCelt said:
NOTHING I said runs contrary to what has been WIDELY reported in the press, consistant with events and confrimed at least in part by the parties under discussion.
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It's just too bad that what's widely reported is skewed towards the sensational, juicy, and soapy.
 
Lamar_Odom said:
As far as Shaq and his ridiculous contract demand, it was obvious he intended to rip the Lakers off with his performance. The Lakers can certainly the kind of contribution he is giving the heat but for the price? That's a total rip off.

Jackson's term with the Lakers ended. Buss wanted a Showtime type of basketball as opposed to the boring triangle. Like Shaq, his contract extension demand was unreasonable.

But without Kobe, what would posters like the author of this thread construct threads on?
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Good argumentation, Lamar. I think you've done a good job of getting Celt to understand.
 
Gargamel said:
Good argumentation, Lamar. I think you've done a good job of getting Celt to understand.
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I understand I just dont agree. I would never presume to know what goes through Kobe's head (that is want forensic psychology is for) But that does not mean that I am willing to accept the most oulandish expalnations either. Just apply Ockhams razor.
 
Nothing. You've convinced all of us. Kobe Bryant is the one true hero who shall save the Lakers, the NBA and arguably the entire planet when the aliens (whose advance team is already here - see Sam Cassel) try to take us over and brainwash us. You have done an excellent job and we are all indebted to you for your patience and dedication.

We have seen the light.

All hail, Kobe...
 
Gargamel said:
The media didn't make up Kobe's Vail situation, but they were very nefarious in how they presented the story. The media has the power to shape its viewers' emotions and opinions.

What did Kobe say about Fox or Fisher that Shaq hasn't?

Phil's opinion is his opinion, but that don't mean Kobe forced him out, which is the commonly held belief.

The last tiff with Malone you could attribute to Kobe's wife and Karl. I don't see how Kobe has any blame whatsoever. He tried to keep the matters closed-door to boot.
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1> The media was nefarious in their reporting of it? How so? Many of them did, indeed, try to shape peoples view points on the situation, but a very LARGE chunk painted KOBE as the victim. I would say, given the circumstances of the charge, he received a lot of leeway. The transcript of HIS own statements to the police were FAR more telling than anything reported to the press, IMO.
2. Snaq's idiocy doesn't excuse kobe, why would it?
3. I personally don't care if Kobe forced him out or what. Phil's opinion, as the man who was Kobe's coach for much of his career, is probably a bit more accurate than fans who only see the image presented to them, hence I would tend to put a bit more stock in it.
4, He tried to keep matters behind closed doors? Why was the first most of us heard about this 'tiff' Kobe on the radio then? I am confused on this.
 
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