The ONE AND ONLY Luka Doncic discussion thread

That was not my point. My point was that MJ was good both on defense and offense, and he did have a great supporting cast. Pippen and Kukoc were not 3 & D players, they both were creators on offense, and Pippen was one of the all-time greats on defense alone. MJ did not start winning in PO before he was surrounded by such players. The year when MJ and Pippen both retired, Kukoc was injured first half of season. Bulls were terrible, they hardly won a game. When Kukoc came back, Bulls started winning most of the games all of sudden. The point is, that team was strong even without Jordan. It never happened that a team won multiple championships with only one star. Also, it never happened that a team won multiple championships without playing good defense. You downplayed defense part when compared bad boys to MJ led Chicago, and I responded that Chicago was great on defense too.
Right but team defense is more important than individual defense. What matters is that you construct a good defensive team in the aggregate not that all 5 players on the floor are good individual defenders. Lebron is a good defender too (when he wants to be) but it's not why his teams were in the Finals 8 years in a row. It's not that I don't think defense is important -- it's more that I don't think defensive shortcomings are a reason to pass on a league MVP player like James Harden or (presumably) Luka Doncic. Conversely, you have teams like Utah which has been top 5 in defensive rating for the last 4 years without coming close to the Finals. I agree that defense is an important part of the equation if you want to put together a winning team. What I was talking about specifically in this topic is prospect evaluation. And a player can be a poor defender and still help you build a great defensive team. It sounds counter intuitive but there are defensive specialists just like there are scoring specialists. When you have a player who accounts for the scoring output of 3 starters that frees you up to plug other players into your rotation who would be offensive liabilities on a different team.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
This is sortof the point though. If you get a guy who can dominate offensively to that extent -- a guy who can go on runs where he's basically carrying the entire offense -- it allows you to put other players on your roster who do nothing but rebound or knock down open three pointers with their feet set without hurting the overall team performance. There's no such thing as a perfect player who is exceptional at everything. If a player has exceptional skill in one part of the game though, you can probably cover for their weaknesses when you fill out the roster.
Michael Jordan was both the best offensive player and best defender in the league.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
VF will probably delete this, but I wonder if there is any leftover animosity from what Vlade dealt with in regards to Drazen Petrovich and slovenia when it comes to Doncic. Not him personally, but just all that baggage. Because it seemed like the biggest no brainer pick in the history of picks. I for one thought Vlade knew something we didn't in regards to him being hurt, or an butthead, or something that other people didn't see.

It looks now like he was just flat out wrong.
Why would I delete it? Pretty weak sauce to start your post that way.
 
Blob was escorted out of the building quite some time ago.
Oh man, that's pretty funny. I always assumed he got carpal tunnel syndrome from writing a novel every time he wanted to argue with somebody (which was just about every thread).

I actually thought the guy was amusing, but he did have a way of making things personal, so this outcome is unsurprising.

I'd like to think he's made a realgm account, where his kind can be happy.
 
yeah, it was interesting that the teams that presumably would have the most insider knowledge of Doncic—the Suns, who at the time had just hired his coach, and the Kings, with their numerous connections to the former Yugoslavia and European hoops—both passed. So I wondered the same.
both teams are usually the laughing stock of the league so us and Phoenix passing on him makes sense around the nba world
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
Michael Jordan was a good defender but he wasn’t even the best defensive player on his own team.
But MJ was the best defender in the league when he wanted to be, much as Kawhi isn't the best defender in the league until the situation calls for it a la him casually blocking the Celtics last shot in overtime.
 
VF will probably delete this, but I wonder if there is any leftover animosity from what Vlade dealt with in regards to Drazen Petrovich and slovenia when it comes to Doncic. Not him personally, but just all that baggage. Because it seemed like the biggest no brainer pick in the history of picks. I for one thought Vlade knew something we didn't in regards to him being hurt, or an butthead, or something that other people didn't see.

It looks now like he was just flat out wrong.
That whole thing does not really work with Slovenia and a kid whose dad is Serbian, a bit too complicated to explain now. BUT, his dad did play for.Red Star (yeay) and Luka is a fan of the same team which is a sworn rival of Vlade's team which is Partizan (booo) so maybe.thats where the animosity comes from :p? Although Vlade did come.back to play for Red Star for which he received a lot of.flack so maybe.not. All kidding aside, its nothing like that. Probably the opposite, as I mentioned before, where Vlade was afraid to be ridiculed for drafting a european bust from (basically) his country whose ability to adopt to the athletic nature of NBA was questioned by many.
 
"I don’t trust foreign competition. I don’t have nothing against foreign players. I just don’t know what kind of a competition it is. They’re like, at 18 years old he was the MVP. Well, that tells me he was playing against shi**y competition. Nobody at 18 should be dominating grown men. I don’t care how bad the grown men are.”

“You go back and look at the NBA. I’ve been in the NBA for over 30 years. There’s only one 18 year old that you can go back and say ‘oh he’s the real deal’. That’s LeBron James. People forget, as great as Kobe Bryant was, he struggled for the first few years. Kevin Garnett? Struggled in his first few years.”

How is Barkley doing? Having drinks with Blob?
 
Vlade should lose his job over that draft. Didn't he say he would resign if this team failed to make the playoffs? Love you Vlade, but being a GM/Pres is just not working. We need GMs who can make better decisions than people in online forums.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
Vlade should lose his job over that draft. Didn't he say he would resign if this team failed to make the playoffs? Love you Vlade, but being a GM/Pres is just not working. We need GMs who can make better decisions than people in online forums.
Good thing there's still *checks calendar* six months until the playoffs.
 
Oh man, that's pretty funny. I always assumed he got carpal tunnel syndrome from writing a novel every time he wanted to argue with somebody (which was just about every thread).

I actually thought the guy was amusing, but he did have a way of making things personal, so this outcome is unsurprising.

I'd like to think he's made a realgm account, where his kind can be happy.
He's got a Reddit account. It's not the same name but he's got such a distinct style that I know it's him.
 
Right but team defense is more important than individual defense. What matters is that you construct a good defensive team in the aggregate not that all 5 players on the floor are good individual defenders. Lebron is a good defender too (when he wants to be) but it's not why his teams were in the Finals 8 years in a row. It's not that I don't think defense is important -- it's more that I don't think defensive shortcomings are a reason to pass on a league MVP player like James Harden or (presumably) Luka Doncic. Conversely, you have teams like Utah which has been top 5 in defensive rating for the last 4 years without coming close to the Finals. I agree that defense is an important part of the equation if you want to put together a winning team. What I was talking about specifically in this topic is prospect evaluation. And a player can be a poor defender and still help you build a great defensive team. It sounds counter intuitive but there are defensive specialists just like there are scoring specialists. When you have a player who accounts for the scoring output of 3 starters that frees you up to plug other players into your rotation who would be offensive liabilities on a different team.
I agree. I just want to point out, that possible reason for drafted Bagley over Doncic was that FO considered that Bagley is a big-time talent and he will presumably be good to great to both sides of the floor and that it will be easier to build a team around him and Fox. Right now it appears that they were terribly wrong. I still have hope that Bagley will improve enough to be our half-Dream compared to Dallas half-Airness.
 
You also can't just look at the numbers. Numbers are ridiculously inflated these days. It's almost a joke honestly. It's not a surprise considering fantasy stats are a big money making business however.
Well every other player in this era is welcome to go out and start racking up 30 point triple doubles too.
 
Our biggest hole for years has been the small forward spot. We finally get a guy that fits the mold and we pass on him because of what? His game or speed might not fit in with Fox? Look, i Iove D'Aaron.. he's a great kid with tons of talent... the thing is he hasn't proven anything yet. He's no star. Not yet anyway. This was a catastrophic mistake by this front office. The only way, and I mean the absolute only way I get over this is if Fox and Bagley become an unstoppable duo that elevated each other's game to all-star levels. If that doesn't happen, well then we can add this to another stupid stupid draft night decision made by this franchise that just can't seem to get the hell out of it's own way. Robinson over Lillard, Freddette over Kawhi and now Bagley over Luka. :oops:
Last year I floated the argument that passing on Luka was less about Luka vs Bagley and more about Luka vs Fox. That received pushback.

Vlade chose the player who he thought would fit best next to Fox. I proposed the question that, if Luka is better and will be better than Fox, then Luka/Bagley fitting next to Fox was the wrong question to ask and the wrong assessment to make.

Simply put, Vlade chose Fox as the franchise player over Luka. That appears the real mistake in my eyes. He chose Bagley as a sidekick and #2 option rather than taking the likely superior franchise player and #1 option.

FWIW, I see Fox as a potential All Star and as someone who'd fit quite well next to Luka. Not as a criticism but an observation, I don't see #1 option assassin mentality from Fox. He looks to me like an elite #2 option. And as for Luka not being able to play well next to another ball handler, he played quite well next to Barrea last season. Fox would kill it hitting the gaps Luka creates from the attention he draws. Fox would repeatedly find himself getting the ball in 1v1 situations with little help defense.
 
Last year I floated the argument that passing on Luka was less about Luka vs Bagley and more about Luka vs Fox. That received pushback.

Vlade chose the player who he thought would fit best next to Fox. I proposed the question that, if Luka is better and will be better than Fox, then Luka/Bagley fitting next to Fox was the wrong question to ask and the wrong assessment to make.

Simply put, Vlade chose Fox as the franchise player over Luka. That appears the real mistake in my eyes. He chose Bagley as a sidekick and #2 option rather than taking the likely superior franchise player and #1 option.

FWIW, I see Fox as a potential All Star and as someone who'd fit quite well next to Luka. Not as a criticism but an observation, I don't see #1 option assassin mentality from Fox. He looks to me like an elite #2 option. And as for Luka not being able to play well next to another ball handler, he played quite well next to Barrea last season. Fox would kill it hitting the gaps Luka creates from the attention he draws. Fox would repeatedly find himself getting the ball in 1v1 situations with little help defense.
The problem is he's wrong either way. Either Luka was a bad fit next to Fox and having the best 1-2 punch with Fox as the 1 was wrong, or he honestly thought Bagley would end up the better player overall and he's wrong. Everybody gets some things wrong in the NBA, but passing on what will likely be a HOF player and top 5 in the league at his peak vs a guy who you think might be in the discussion for an all-star spot is too big of a mistake to swallow at this point.
 
But MJ was the best defender in the league when he wanted to be, much as Kawhi isn't the best defender in the league until the situation calls for it a la him casually blocking the Celtics last shot in overtime.
What evidence do you have to support this claim? Scottie Pippen was the best defender on the bulls whether or not Michael wanted to be or not. This is a pretty ridiculous take.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
The problem is he's wrong either way. Either Luka was a bad fit next to Fox and having the best 1-2 punch with Fox as the 1 was wrong, or he honestly thought Bagley would end up the better player overall and he's wrong. Everybody gets some things wrong in the NBA, but passing on what will likely be a HOF player and top 5 in the league at his peak vs a guy who you think might be in the discussion for an all-star spot is too big of a mistake to swallow at this point.
It’s unforgivable. There’s always going to be a seed of resentment against the Kings for it, and I’m completely through with Vlade.
 
Last year I floated the argument that passing on Luka was less about Luka vs Bagley and more about Luka vs Fox. That received pushback.

Vlade chose the player who he thought would fit best next to Fox. I proposed the question that, if Luka is better and will be better than Fox, then Luka/Bagley fitting next to Fox was the wrong question to ask and the wrong assessment to make.

Simply put, Vlade chose Fox as the franchise player over Luka. That appears the real mistake in my eyes. He chose Bagley as a sidekick and #2 option rather than taking the likely superior franchise player and #1 option.

FWIW, I see Fox as a potential All Star and as someone who'd fit quite well next to Luka. Not as a criticism but an observation, I don't see #1 option assassin mentality from Fox. He looks to me like an elite #2 option. And as for Luka not being able to play well next to another ball handler, he played quite well next to Barrea last season. Fox would kill it hitting the gaps Luka creates from the attention he draws. Fox would repeatedly find himself getting the ball in 1v1 situations with little help defense.
This was a bad call even after Fox's 2nd year leap and prior to his possible regression this year. It seems insane to make that call after only his rookie year. Even at the peak we've seen from him so far, he has not shown the inclination or desire to be a #1. It's going to have to be Bagley if anyone. For all his limitations at this point, we know that Bagley will attack relentlessly.

All that talk about Bagley being a better fit and yet we're flummoxed about which front court partner would allow him to start and conceding he may need to come off the bench.
 
Last year I floated the argument that passing on Luka was less about Luka vs Bagley and more about Luka vs Fox. That received pushback.

Vlade chose the player who he thought would fit best next to Fox. I proposed the question that, if Luka is better and will be better than Fox, then Luka/Bagley fitting next to Fox was the wrong question to ask and the wrong assessment to make.

Simply put, Vlade chose Fox as the franchise player over Luka. That appears the real mistake in my eyes. He chose Bagley as a sidekick and #2 option rather than taking the likely superior franchise player and #1 option.

FWIW, I see Fox as a potential All Star and as someone who'd fit quite well next to Luka. Not as a criticism but an observation, I don't see #1 option assassin mentality from Fox. He looks to me like an elite #2 option. And as for Luka not being able to play well next to another ball handler, he played quite well next to Barrea last season. Fox would kill it hitting the gaps Luka creates from the attention he draws. Fox would repeatedly find himself getting the ball in 1v1 situations with little help defense.
I think you're right... they went with fit over talent. Everything else is just rationalization after the fact. As much as I like Fox, I haven't ever seen him as a #1 option on a good team either. Doncic can play SF or even some PF so there's no reason you couldn't have them on the floor together. Certainly having another primary playmaker would take the ball out of Fox's hands a bit (maybe even a lot considering Doncic's current usage rate) but are we a team that cares about stats or winning basketball games? Nothing Fox can do is diminished by having another playmaker next to him and taking the pressure off him to create offense all game long would probably free him up to expend more energy on the defensive end where he does have elite potential. The whole "we already have a PG" angle seems like the shallowest of all possible explanations for passing on an elite prospect and if that was ultimately the reason, they clearly did not spend enough time watching Doncic's pre-NBA career.

But this has been my issue all along with Vlade as a GM. The primary role of the lead executive is to put talent together. Anyone who scouted Bagley and Doncic and thought Bagley was the better prospect is already suspect as a talent evaluator. Then you look at all of the other draft decisions he's made and it's pretty clear that he just doesn't have it. If your GM can't hit on multiple first round picks over several years and can't look at the big picture and see how players fit together, then nothing else the team does even matters. It's going to be one step forward and two steps back forever. Given Vivek's fixation on Golden State, we'd have been better off with him making the pick. That team has been plugging one journeyman big man after another into their starting lineup and managed to remain elite for half a decade and that's with a 6'7" PF as their other frontcourt starter. Meanwhile Vlade has drafted a PF/C in the first round every. single. year. And two of them in 2016!
 
Last year I floated the argument that passing on Luka was less about Luka vs Bagley and more about Luka vs Fox. That received pushback.

Vlade chose the player who he thought would fit best next to Fox. I proposed the question that, if Luka is better and will be better than Fox, then Luka/Bagley fitting next to Fox was the wrong question to ask and the wrong assessment to make.

Simply put, Vlade chose Fox as the franchise player over Luka. That appears the real mistake in my eyes. He chose Bagley as a sidekick and #2 option rather than taking the likely superior franchise player and #1 option.

FWIW, I see Fox as a potential All Star and as someone who'd fit quite well next to Luka. Not as a criticism but an observation, I don't see #1 option assassin mentality from Fox. He looks to me like an elite #2 option. And as for Luka not being able to play well next to another ball handler, he played quite well next to Barrea last season. Fox would kill it hitting the gaps Luka creates from the attention he draws. Fox would repeatedly find himself getting the ball in 1v1 situations with little help defense.

Right there my friends is the sole reason why I have absolutely ZERO confidence in this front office turning this franchise around.

This team has been the laughing stock for over a decade. 13 year playoff drought. Out of all of the four major sports...Only the Mariners, Marlins and the Browns have us beat. Truly pathetic. We've watched other teams rebuild TWICE now since our 2006 first round exit. Sure, some teams can pull off a quick turnaround by being more of a destination spot for FAs but that's just another excuse I'm tired of hearing. At the end of the day, we wouldn't even been having this discussing if this team started doing what they should have done 2-3 years removed from the playoffs... you simply draft the best player available. I don't know why this is so hard for this franchise to understand.