The Harry Giles option conundrum

Really hoping Richaun Holmes makes it back on the court soon.

The sooner Holmes can return to the starting lineup, the sooner we can start to hide Harry, by having him come off the bench.
 
We don’t even know if he would pass a physical come off season. What if he doesn’t pass then what? Who will offer him a contract above 4 million. I imagine that could hamper any Possible long term deal he could sign. Also I can’t see a team would take the he risk of a long term contract without it being insured( because if he fails the physical There would be no insurance on that contract)
 
Yeah I know... Unfortunately what's done is done and I'm just enjoying the Oh Henry ride like our boy SLAB
Not aimed at you and no offense intended, but I get sick and tired of the ‘what’s done is done’ mentality.
We didn’t get Luka, get over it. The Philly pick swap is behind us, don’t dwell on it. Joerger is gone, let’s give Walton a chance. So we picked Papagianis and Justin Jackson, what’s done is done. So we declined Harry his option and see him blossom in front of our eyes? Enjoy the moment!

What done is not done; the people making these horrible and fireable decisions are still in charge. And that is not something we should get over. Every game I see Harry play well is a slap in the face. And just accepting it and moving on is mindbaffling.

Vlade needs to go. There are many reasons, but declining Harry’s option for peanuts is so over the top moronic that it is the final straw.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
We don’t even know if he would pass a physical come off season. What if he doesn’t pass then what? Who will offer him a contract above 4 million. I imagine that could hamper any Possible long term deal he could sign. Also I can’t see a team would take the he risk of a long term contract without it being insured( because if he fails the physical There would be no insurance on that contract)
Can’t even pass a physical but can play without limitation for 30 minutes a night? Seems like a stretch. It’s possible given the knees, but without any sign of injury it’s a stretch.
 
Not aimed at you and no offense intended, but I get sick and tired of the ‘what’s done is done’ mentality.
We didn’t get Luka, get over it. The Philly pick swap is behind us, don’t dwell on it. Joerger is gone, let’s give Walton a chance. So we picked Papagianis and Justin Jackson, what’s done is done. So we declined Harry his option and see him blossom in front of our eyes? Enjoy the moment!

What done is not done; the people making these horrible and fireable decisions are still in charge. And that is not something we should get over. Every game I see Harry play well is a slap in the face. And just accepting it and moving on is mindbaffling.

Vlade needs to go. There are many reasons, but declining Harry’s option for peanuts is so over the top moronic that it is the final straw.
It's out of my control so that's my mentality. I work my A off so I watch the Kings because I love basketball and Sactown is my hometown. I understand your sentiment, but I just don't have the energy to be continually mad at things out of my control. Just glad I live in an era where I can continue to watch players I love on TV no matter where they play
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Not aimed at you and no offense intended, but I get sick and tired of the ‘what’s done is done’ mentality.
We didn’t get Luka, get over it. The Philly pick swap is behind us, don’t dwell on it. Joerger is gone, let’s give Walton a chance. So we picked Papagianis and Justin Jackson, what’s done is done. So we declined Harry his option and see him blossom in front of our eyes? Enjoy the moment!

What done is not done; the people making these horrible and fireable decisions are still in charge. And that is not something we should get over. Every game I see Harry play well is a slap in the face. And just accepting it and moving on is mindbaffling.

Vlade needs to go. There are many reasons, but declining Harry’s option for peanuts is so over the top moronic that it is the final straw.
Yeah, we get it. Vlade sucks. That doesn't need to be repeated ad nauseum every time the opportunity arises.

The "what's done is done" mentality is just as valid as your "we'll never get over" viewpoint.

Accepting it and moving on is a way to still enjoy watching the game/team we love. Sorry if baffles your mind but quite frankly, the attitude that you cannot derive any joy from wins because Vlade sucks is just as baffling.

It's not a new take, even though you appear to be a new poster. You're not saying anything that hasn't already been said 10,000 times. We get it. We all get it.
 
I love the way Giles is playing but unfortunately this great play is going to be rewarded by another team. Luckily vlade has a backup plan in Holmes and Len (assuming he keeps up his play). Best case scenario is kings have some secret handshake deal with Giles. Worse case we have Holmes and Len.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Considering the heart, hustle, energy and effort Giles is showing, his pride in his game now and his mutual trust with Walton, I think he'd much prefer to stay here. He loves Sacramento and he loves the fans.

I'm honestly thinking the Kings have already figured out a way to keep him.
 
Can’t even pass a physical but can play without limitation for 30 minutes a night? Seems like a stretch. It’s possible given the knees, but without any sign of injury it’s a stretch.
Physicals are usually for insurance I wouldn't be surprised if he can play 30 minutes a game and still fail his physical because of his knees. I would be surprised if he gets a big payday this offseason.
 
Considering the heart, hustle, energy and effort Giles is showing, his pride in his game now and his mutual trust with Walton, I think he'd much prefer to stay here. He loves Sacramento and he loves the fans.

I'm honestly thinking the Kings have already figured out a way to keep him.
What sense does it make that he stays? Kid has an injury history for all he knows this is his last paycheck before he gets hurt again. You go get paid not play games and sign for 3.5 mill cause you love it in Sacramento.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
What sense does it make that he stays? Kid has an injury history for all he knows this is his last paycheck before he gets hurt again. You go get paid not play games and sign for 3.5 mill cause you love it in Sacramento.
Just let us have this my dude. I’ll join you at the front of the hate-line if/when he leaves this offseason, believe you me. But let us live in fantasyland for a minute. One day something good has to happen to this franchise. Maybe it’s Harry.
 
What sense does it make that he stays? Kid has an injury history for all he knows this is his last paycheck before he gets hurt again. You go get paid not play games and sign for 3.5 mill cause you love it in Sacramento.
The thing is, what sort of payday can he actually get this summer?

The ONLY thing keeping me from going completely insane with Harry is the fact that he'd have to sign a 3 year deal somewhere else to establish bird rights and this summer is a horrible time to hit the open market since there's legit like 5 teams with cap space. So if you're Harry, why tie yourself to something like a 3 year/21 million deal, where you aren't going to get a player option when you can sign a 2 year/9.5 mil 1+1 deal here, maintain your bird rights, then hit the market next off-season when everyone has money again. And he's not the typical guy teams look towards with their MLE

If he keeps up what he's done for the past month for another year, he'd be in line for a 12-15+ million/season deal rather than somewhere in the 5-8 range he'd get this off-season. And like you said, he's a guy who might not have the opportunity for the 2nd contract. So it'd make sense for him to really maximize these next 4 years the best he can.
 
The thing is, what sort of payday can he actually get this summer?

The ONLY thing keeping me from going completely insane with Harry is the fact that he'd have to sign a 3 year deal somewhere else to establish bird rights and this summer is a horrible time to hit the open market since there's legit like 5 teams with cap space. So if you're Harry, why tie yourself to something like a 3 year/21 million deal, where you aren't going to get a player option when you can sign a 2 year/9.5 mil 1+1 deal here, maintain your bird rights, then hit the market next off-season when everyone has money again. And he's not the typical guy teams look towards with their MLE

If he keeps up what he's done for the past month for another year, he'd be in line for a 12-15+ million/season deal rather than somewhere in the 5-8 range he'd get this off-season. And like you said, he's a guy who might not have the opportunity for the 2nd contract. So it'd make sense for him to really maximize these next 4 years the best he can.
With his injury history you have to take the deal even if it’s a 2 year 10mill deal. If you get hurt you atleast got 10 million instead of 3.5 he doesn’t get hurt and explodes than he’s 24 hitting the open market.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
With his injury history you have to take the deal even if it’s a 2 year 10mill deal. If you get hurt you atleast got 10 million instead of 3.5 he doesn’t get hurt and explodes than he’s 24 hitting the open market.
The thing is that the only teams that have significant cap space this offseason are Atlanta (already have devoted large amounts of money to their front court/have to save money for max deals for John Collins and Trae), New York (probably going to do something dumb with that money like offer Trez a max contract or something), and the Grizzlies (probably the most likely of all three teams to make an offer to Harry but already have JJJ, Val, and Clarke dominating their depth chart). The biggest threat to take Giles probably remains Charlotte since its his hometown and they're so talent starved and have enough space to throw Harry a cornered stray dog offer. The thing is that this is a star-drive league and a lot of teams seem hellbent on using their cap space for one big name rather than on several value pickups and most of the teams may be frugal with next offseason's FA bonanza in mind.
 
At the start of camp and for most of the early part of the season I would of agreed that the Giles experiment was pretty much over. Last night against Jonas he would of fouled out by half time if that was the normal Harry we have seen in the past but he didn’t.

His playing more controlled has led to Luke having more confidence in giving him more minutes and keeping him on the floor at critical points of the game.

We all for the most part want Giles to succeed and that’s a given and being able to resign him at the end of the year is up in the air but pretty sure we are going to offer what ever we are able to at that point.
Sometimes it’s better to take what you can with knowing where your are and be happy with that as you don’t know what will happen as in the WCS case.

We need three centers on the team and he is proving in a winning way he can fill one of those spots.
 
It is hard to know about Giles physical status.
What we do know is that he works very hard, plays defense, is a great passer and now is figuring out he can score in this league. He has a special relationship with Sacto fans. I like the guy a lot and think we should go out of our way to keep him.
 
The thing is that the only teams that have significant cap space this offseason are Atlanta (already have devoted large amounts of money to their front court/have to save money for max deals for John Collins and Trae), New York (probably going to do something dumb with that money like offer Trez a max contract or something), and the Grizzlies (probably the most likely of all three teams to make an offer to Harry but already have JJJ, Val, and Clarke dominating their depth chart). The biggest threat to take Giles probably remains Charlotte since its his hometown and they're so talent starved and have enough space to throw Harry a cornered stray dog offer. The thing is that this is a star-drive league and a lot of teams seem hellbent on using their cap space for one big name rather than on several value pickups and most of the teams may be frugal with next offseason's FA bonanza in mind.
I don't get why people only consider teams with cap space.
Room MLE is $4.9M
Taxpayer MLE is $5.9M
Standard MLE is $9.7M

Basically, any team can offer Harry more money than the Kings.
 
Considering the heart, hustle, energy and effort Giles is showing, his pride in his game now and his mutual trust with Walton, I think he'd much prefer to stay here. He loves Sacramento and he loves the fans.

I'm honestly thinking the Kings have already figured out a way to keep him.
I sure hope so
 
It still comes down to the fact for me that the Kings did Giles a favor in not exercising the option dramatically increasing his short term earning potential as long as he stays healthy. Assuming both sides had this conversation ahead of time this is a huge win for everyone involved and leaving the team for a few dollars more on the front end would be the ultimate FU to the team that believed in you, rehabbed you with no pressure and full pay, and just gave you full control of your destiny 4 years ahead of schedule. I guess in a vacuum there'd be no consequence to doing so and you'd be richer and hahaha. Mercenary. Player Agency! Go Giles!

Except that this would potentially cause great harm to Barnes and Bagley as well. Whether that be negotiating future contracts with the Kings or avoiding a trade that is bad for the player but good for the team down the road, it's pretty safe to say all bets would be off for anyone represented by this agent.

So in my mind, the only question is whether everyone got together ahead of the decision on the option and agreed on a best course. We will know in July.
 
It still comes down to the fact for me that the Kings did Giles a favor in not exercising the option dramatically increasing his short term earning potential as long as he stays healthy. Assuming both sides had this conversation ahead of time this is a huge win for everyone involved and leaving the team for a few dollars more on the front end would be the ultimate FU to the team that believed in you, rehabbed you with no pressure and full pay, and just gave you full control of your destiny 4 years ahead of schedule. I guess in a vacuum there'd be no consequence to doing so and you'd be richer and hahaha. Mercenary. Player Agency! Go Giles!

Except that this would potentially cause great harm to Barnes and Bagley as well. Whether that be negotiating future contracts with the Kings or avoiding a trade that is bad for the player but good for the team down the road, it's pretty safe to say all bets would be off for anyone represented by this agent.

So in my mind, the only question is whether everyone got together ahead of the decision on the option and agreed on a best course. We will know in July.
Am I missing something?
So they did him a favor by increasing his short term earning potential by declining his option, which limits what the Kings can offer him in the short term but also in the long term, since the yearly increases are something like 8% I believe.
And how does that harm Barnes and Bagley?
 
Am I missing something?
So they did him a favor by increasing his short term earning potential by declining his option, which limits what the Kings can offer him in the short term but also in the long term, since the yearly increases are something like 8% I believe.
And how does that harm Barnes and Bagley?
Yeah, no doubt if Vlade had intentions of keeping him long term then this wasn't the way to go about it.

That said, the conundrum isn't as much contractual IMO, it's realistic roster fit. Ok lets say you have Bagley, Bjelica, Giles, and Holmes as your main 4 bigs. How in the world do you fit those players into the gameplan already knowing that this team is significantly more capable when they play Barnes significant minutes at PF?

Bagley is your star, play him 24 mpg and watch that value go out like someone blowing out a candle. Bjelica is the only big out of those guys that can actually spread the floor for De'Aaron Fox. Giles struggles in a ton of matchups at C and as I brought up in another thread, the only positive net scenario for him is likely at center in a small ball unit so that limits how you can use him when you consider his front court mates. Then there's Holmes. Holmes is the only player out of them that is a huge plus defensively as a shot blocker and athlete while also not being overpowered by bigger centers. 5 guys, 2 spots. It can't work.

Here's what I said in the Richaun Holmes signing thread after Vlade went depth shopping for bigs in the summer:

I like him. That said, there has to be a question of how this is going to work out in terms of a realistic rotation. You can't have 5 bigs rotating around in your lineup unless you platoon. Nobody is platooning their way to success. I hope Vlade has made it clear with some of these signings what the intentions are because we saw what happened a few years ago with George Hill.
We watched Walton try to make it work by playing a player one night and another the next. We watched him play big and bigger. All of it failed. The other issue is one that is hanging over their heads with Bogdan, will he want to return with no guarantee in role? My take is that sometimes it's wiser to cut bait and monitor if the player is young enough. If Giles can find a situation where he can continue to improve physically without it being tempered by expectation that might be best if the alternative is creating more dysfunction in the locker room and/or putting him in a regressive scenario individually. Maybe for once the Kings can watch another team spend a few years developing a player and then when they're ripe on the vine they swing back and pick them back up.

Now, if they could find a swing player 4 that can slide to the 3 then it would ease some of the crush. I don't want to derail this into a trade thread, but I do think making a deal that might involve a player like Bagley could be wise. If that were possible I'd look at someone like Aaron Gordon. In terms of fit and comfort he could steal minutes at the 3 which none of the Kings current bigs have shown the ability to.
 
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Am I missing something?
So they did him a favor by increasing his short term earning potential by declining his option, which limits what the Kings can offer him in the short term but also in the long term, since the yearly increases are something like 8% I believe.
And how does that harm Barnes and Bagley?
They give him a 2 year contract with a second year option at the same value +8% in year 2. If he gets hurt and never plays again, he got a year more than he would have.

If he plays great, he declines the option, is unrestricted, and can get market value, plus Kings can sign to whatever. And in the mean time the cap hold is decreased during this period allowing more roster flexibility.

The agents for Giles, Barnes and Bagley are the same. Thus it is mutually beneficial for the team and the agent to have a strong working relationship. Handshaking and reneging insures the team does whatever they want with no concern for the players with the others. Usually agents bundle players when it can be beneficial to multiple players (plus the agent's bottom line). Going nuclear on a back door deal would pretty much destroy your credibility with a team plus get around the league. My hunch is this agent relationship with the FO is a pretty huge underlying part of what is happening here.