Section 101
All-Star
100% Wrong. Robinson got hurt and missed most of the season. It was the Celtics tanking for Duncan and didn't win the lotto with the best odds.
100% Wrong. Robinson got hurt and missed most of the season. It was the Celtics tanking for Duncan and didn't win the lotto with the best odds.
Disgusting? If Cousins gets hurt we can play Jimmer at center! What's not to like?
S
storisaurus
Guest
lol...
Sac.Kings
All-Star
Luck is not something this franchise has grown accustomed to unfortunately
C
Cold
Guest
Tanking isn't bad for culture. That's a myth.
Teams suck because of lack of talent (mainly players, and to a lesser extend coaching staff/management). This culture thing is overblown.
Losing repeatedly leads to "bad culture". You won't find many losing locker rooms with great culture. And you won't find many winning teams that have a "culture" problem.
Put CP3 on the crappy Clippers and they went from 20 wins to 56.
Put Lebron on the 20 win Cavs and they went from last to top seed.
Put Garnett and Allen on Boston and they went from 19 wins to NBA title.
Overnight.
C
Cold
Guest
We're all well aware that Robinson got hurt. But everybody back then knew the Spurs were tanking. Go back and look at the lineups they put on the floor.
Hogwash. The culture thing is NOT overblown if you're trying to clean up after the Maloofs.
With the exception of lebron, whose cavs still struggled at first, all of those changes involved established stars not lottery luck. Not exactly a compelling case for tanking.
If you are claiming talent is a huge part of winning you are right. But deliberately losing doesnt mean a guarantee getting the best talent and establishing a winning culture.
Dreadnought
Bench
I would prefer if we tried our hardest at every game... while still losing.
YOU MISS THE POINT. "Although the Celtics had the second worst record in the 1996-97 season and the best odds (36 percent) of winning the lottery with two picks, the Spurs, usually a model of winning and consistency, lost David Robinson and Sean Elliott to injury early in the season and finished with the third worst record, subsequently winning the lottery." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_NBA_Draft
The Spurs LUCKED into getting the top pick.
C
Cold
Guest
They wouldn't have "lucked" into Duncan if they didn't put themselves in position to get "lucky".
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You're looking at a team that had Avery Johnson, Vinnie Del Negro, an aging but still effective Dominique Wilkins and Will Perdue playing basically 2000 minutes a piece. You add a healthy David Robinson and Sean Elliott to that mix and you've got a playoff team without any doubt. There's no way that they "put themselves in a position to get lucky". That's like saying that the Rockets have put themselves in a position to get lucky in the event that both Howard and Harden go down.
C
Cold
Guest
Well that's my point. Even without Robinson, that roster was still way too good to finish with the 3rd worst record in the league. Sean Elliott just came off an All-Star campaign, Avery Johnson averaged 10 assists the year before (best of his career), Vernon Maxwell still in his prime, a still productive Dominique Wilkins, and two capable centers in Will Purdue and Charles Smith. They had veteran depth at every position.
How did that roster finish 3rd worst in the league? I know it's hard to compare different eras, but last year the 3rd worst team was the Bobcats and 4th worst team was the Phoenix Suns. Compare the rosters.
I remember those years vividly in my mind as I was a senior in high school in 1997, I was playing varsity ball in 1996 and 1997, and I was seriously into the NBA.
How did that roster finish 3rd worst in the league? I know it's hard to compare different eras, but last year the 3rd worst team was the Bobcats and 4th worst team was the Phoenix Suns. Compare the rosters.
I remember those years vividly in my mind as I was a senior in high school in 1997, I was playing varsity ball in 1996 and 1997, and I was seriously into the NBA.
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Hoovtrain
All-Star
No way this team finishes at .500 or sniffs the playoffs. WAY too many holes and unbalanced roster. No legitimate SF, no real legitimate PF, no one on the perimeter who can defend the perimeter, undersized bigs who cannot defend the goal, and still no real semblance of an offense. I saw a couple nice plays where they sprung Mclemore for open 3's, other than that a lot of standing around and one on one. I don't think they need to try and tank anything. I just want some competitive basketball then start putting together some pieces; a defensive minded big who rebounds, a starting caliber SF who can shoot, and a PG that will run an offense and is not a sieve on defense. Teague is a guy I want and have wanted and will be. a FA, Asik was there for a trade (who knows if he is anymore or will be next off-season)and a SF can hopefully be had in the draft.
Kingsfan23
All-Star
We have an arena to worry about as well. The arena saga will play out in the next 1-2 years if the opposition is successful on putting this up for vote (lets hope they aren't). If they are you would still like to be somewhat competitive to keep the publics interest on the team to vote for the arena. Also, the ownership group saved our azzes, while the team plays at Arco they are going to have a harder time turning profits, so we need the team to be competitive to fill the arena the best we can
C
Cold
Guest
Imagine what an Andrew Wiggins / Jabari Parker / Julius Randle / Marcus Smart will do to fan enthusiasm.
There's not even anything to debate this season. The roster as presently constructed is just not a competitive roster. Not with a huge black hole at SF, no legitimate backup for DeMarcus, and our best perimeter threat a 20 year old rookie. No doubt about it we took a step back this off-season. The hope is that it was just a small step back and the forward leaps are coming soon. Once I got over my personal feelings about Tyreke no longer being a part of the Kings family, I can see why the new front office made the decisions they made. A lottery pick and a healthy collection of expiring contracts are huge assets if you know how to correctly identify talent. Salmons, Fredette, Vasquez, and Patterson represent $15.5 million in expiring deals we could trade mid-season. Come June, they'll have another $22 million in expiring contracts to work with in Thornton, Outlaw, Hayes, and Mbah A Moute. It's all about what comes next.
But that doesn't mean we don't have anything to root for. If this team outperforms wildly and sniffs the playoffs then we know we have a miracle worker in Mike Malone. If that's the case, you laugh all the way to the bank because a great coach can turn cast-offs into solid rotation players (ie the Rick Adelman effect). That's arguably more valuable than a top draft pick. If they don't then you're going to be drafting somewhere in the lottery where smart talent evaluators find good players. As pointed out earlier in the thread, it's often not the team that wins the lottery that finds the best player anyway. Michael Carter-Williams looks like the steal of the draft so far and he was taken 11th. And I'm reasonably confident that winning every close game with DeMarcus beasting, McLemore shooting a good percentage, and IT giving his best mighty mouse impression at best probably puts us right around that 11-14 range in the draft anyway where steals are often had.
Basically, if we come out of this season with confidence in our coach and franchise player, shovels in the ground on the downtown arena, and a tearful farewell to the John Salmons era this would already be the best Kings season in basically a decade and all of those outcomes seem optimistically very obtainable. It's too early to say anything at all about Pete D'Alessandro as a GM but the mere fact that he's not more of the same is reason for hope, at least until proven otherwise.
But that doesn't mean we don't have anything to root for. If this team outperforms wildly and sniffs the playoffs then we know we have a miracle worker in Mike Malone. If that's the case, you laugh all the way to the bank because a great coach can turn cast-offs into solid rotation players (ie the Rick Adelman effect). That's arguably more valuable than a top draft pick. If they don't then you're going to be drafting somewhere in the lottery where smart talent evaluators find good players. As pointed out earlier in the thread, it's often not the team that wins the lottery that finds the best player anyway. Michael Carter-Williams looks like the steal of the draft so far and he was taken 11th. And I'm reasonably confident that winning every close game with DeMarcus beasting, McLemore shooting a good percentage, and IT giving his best mighty mouse impression at best probably puts us right around that 11-14 range in the draft anyway where steals are often had.
Basically, if we come out of this season with confidence in our coach and franchise player, shovels in the ground on the downtown arena, and a tearful farewell to the John Salmons era this would already be the best Kings season in basically a decade and all of those outcomes seem optimistically very obtainable. It's too early to say anything at all about Pete D'Alessandro as a GM but the mere fact that he's not more of the same is reason for hope, at least until proven otherwise.
Siranthony
Starter
Thank you!
I hope you have a Plan B: the problem with putting all your eggs in one basket is that, sometimes, there are holes in the basket. Ask the '96-'97 Celtics.
What happens if 4-5 of these allegedly "can't miss" prospects wash out, and are busts? What happens if, by June, this is only a three-player draft, and we end up with the fourth pick again?
EDIT - Hell, let's say, for the sake of argument, that they're all as good as advertised. Realistically speaking, we're not going to end up with the worst record in the league, no matter how bad we play, or if we try to "tank." We're not worse than the Celtics, we're not worse than the Wizards, we're not worse than the Jazz. Hell, records after four games notwithstanding, we're probably not worse than the Sixers or the Suns. Even if management decides to tank, we're probably not any worse than the seventh-worst team in the league. Which means that we could end up with the tenth pick in the draft, and then we'd have gone through all that for nothing. What's your spin going to be then?
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ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
We need to continue developing Ray McCallum with some playing time. This guy does have a future in the NBA with his overall skill set
Ahead of GV or IT? Which means we just assume now we wouldn't resign that player?
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Plan B is to continue on as a awful team. We will not have much cap space to get a real star. We have little trade material to get a star. We need to take a chance to get the star and tanking is all I can see.
I don't know about the rest of you but I am losing interest in this team. We are 1-3 and I have no grand ideas to do anything more than the most minimal of improvements. 1-3 at home and we very well could have lost the first game. Tanking gives hope and yes, it may not work. TRob didn't work. We gave up on Tyreke. Jimmer didn't work. Drafting isn't a science and one injury (Oden) can screw up all the plans but at least it is a viable plan. We are on our way with Landry and Mbah A Moute out.
So how would you manage our "young guy" rotation?
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I don't have a clue what you are asking. If you think there is only one way to tank, I will disagree. We seem to be on our way nicely without even trying UNLESS the off season signings and lack of signings were the start of a tank.
I'll try to clarify. You are advocating potentially tanking so how exactly would you propose we do that?
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
Not 'ahead' of anybody right now, I would just start working him into select parts of certain games to get his feet wet with some experience.
I dislike the idea of not having a goal of winning as many games as possible,..however I'm of the opinion that having a chance to win 4-5 extra games this season, at the expense of slowing down potential talent development, doesn't help our future at all. This season is about figuring what talent and assets we really have and then doing whatever it takes to improve them.
Sometimes when a team has no chance of advancing in the playoffs and little chance of making it into the playoffs, this is the reality you have to work with. Thankfully our owners, management, and coach already knew this months ago
Padrino
All-Star
i tend to agree with you. i hate hope-and-a-prayer strategies, because it's not a strategy at all. that said, your question of "what happens?" is made moot by circumstantial evidence. the kings may not be "bad enough," but this roster is going absolutely nowhere. though i remain dissatisfied with the new regime's first offseason on the job, the maloofs didn't do vivek and co. any favors by finally relinquishing their vice grip on this particular set of players. the fact of the matter is that the team's current assets provide very little future flexibility. until the kings are winning in front of regular sell-out crowds at a new downtown arena, sacramento is simply not a free agent destination. even then, i imagine it's still going to be difficult to coax major talent to this city. and, at present, the kings are also well short of the kind of assets necessary to trade for major talent. that leaves the draft, and if a front office is going to bank on any draft at all, i'd prefer if it to be the 2014 draft...
so, "what happens" if the kings luck into wiggins or parker or smart and they bust? well, then the kings have to start the process over again. however, this upcoming draft represents the best possible chance at bringing an impact player to sacramento in the near future. except, under more favorable conditions made possible by the new regime, the kings must then commit to developing their young talent, rather than alienating that talent from its potential. paul westphal alienated demarcus cousins and threw him under the bus, feeding into DMC's victim complex and setting back his development. keith smart undermined tyreke evans by shifting him off-ball and playing him out-of-position. now evans, a powerful top-four pick with a killer dribble drive, is coming off the bench in new orleans. you cannot waste the inexpensive years of a rookie contract by stunting the development of talented young players...
coach malone's early approach to ben mclemore's playing time gives me some confidence that the new regime is capable of properly developing a guy like wiggins or parker or smart. the nba is filled with "what-ifs," but this draft, more than any other in recent memory, is worth banking on. what else are the kings going to do? hope that sacramento turns into a free agent mecca? hope that a trade package of any combination of john salmons, marcus thornton, patrick patterson, travis outlaw, chuck hayes, and jimmer fredette will yield a star in return? good luck with those strategies. in my estimation, the kings need to swing hard at a chance to get into the top-5 of the 2014 draft, snag a potential impact player, and surround cousins/draft pick/mclemore/thomas with veteran, defensively-inclined roleplayers...
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I would make sure Mbah A Moute had a season ending injury. I wouldn't bring him back too soon because it might aggravate his injury. Same with Landry. So far simply doing that seems to be working fine. I would give Hamady a few minutes. I would play McCallum and Jimmer more. I would continue playing Cousins around 30 minutes which is what has happened the last two games. What I WOULDN'T do is to ask the players to play at half speed. Have everybody on the court playing as hard as they can be be sure you limit the minutes of your best players. The SF position is taking care of itself as is the PF position. Be creative and be tasteful as Padrino would say.
What are the alternatives? I've never been a fan of tanking and have no preconceived idea of how it should be done. I see this team going nowhere and this is the first year the idea of tanking has crossed my mind.
Edit: Insert Padrino's lamentation about our FA and trade possibilities. What else are we to do and what is a better year?
To put it another way, true tanking requires both intent and forethought. Just because you're bad, just because you're losing, doesn't mean you're tanking. The Suns, current record notwithstanding, are tanking: they traded their starting, borderline All-Star center, and their sixth man for a guy who might not play all year, a guy they knew was not going to play, and a draft pick. That's tanking. The Sixers traded an All-Star for the draft rights to a guy they don't plan to play all season, healthy or not; that's tanking.
We're not set up to be able to do that, so we might as well play to win, and let the ping pong balls fall where they may.
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