The direction of the Carter/Randolph signings

[24 rick barry]

Vince has done a good job as a mentor, and Zach’s second year looks the big of a handicap I originally thought (in terms of how else it could be spent this summer)..

No use in crying over spilt milk, but, it was a philosophy I didn’t agree with, and, more importantly, I hope isn’t repeated. Lottery teams in general look to acquire assets over spending on players at the tail ends of careeers. This summer, I want every ounce of space spent on assets going forward, and I’m reticent about who made the original moves sharing that view.

Hopefully it was just a one summer thing, where quality FAs were not available and the Raptors Carroll salary dump had not availed itself. I’ll anticipate that, as it should be a buyers market in FA, and not a lot of teams will have space so it should be easy to get compensation in salary dumps

Personally, I am not into mentors. I think we have coaches that are there to teach. I am only about how best to position ourselves to WIN. To me, it would be about staying below the cap and be there to pick up poorly made overpaid contracts for other valuable assets. Kings drafted 2 point guards. Hill another point guard, was in place to mentor at a cost of 19 mil per year. Didn't work out. Now as a result you have an overpaid 11 million player on the books who is unlikely to play any minutes the remainder of this year and not only that, management wishes that he does not exercise his 11 million dollar option for next season.

What are the Kings trying to accomplish?

 

[ppine]

It is hard to measure the contributions of Randolph and Carter on the road, at practice and in the locker room. Vince has been a blessing for the Kings team. I don't think that is putting it too strongly. It is easy to understand him wanting to go back to Toronto to retire.

Randolph is good with the young players. He has shown Skal and Willie a lot. Both are playing better. Last night I watched the Nets game, and remember a play where Skal sealed off the defense in the paint for an easy dunk. That is vintage Randolph body position basketball. It is easy to make the case that Randolph should be traded. His defense really is terrible.

 

[24 rick barry]

It is hard to measure the contributions of Randolph and Carter on the road, at practice and in the locker room. Vince has been a blessing for the Kings team. I don't think that is putting it too strongly. It is easy to understand him wanting to go back to Toronto to retire.

Randolph is good with the young players. He has shown Skal and Willie a lot. Both are playing better. Last night I watched the Nets game, and remember a play where Skal sealed off the defense in the paint for an easy dunk. That is vintage Randolph body position basketball. It is easy to make the case that Randolph should be traded. His defense really is terrible.

I thought that is the reason you have a coaching staff.

The tutelage you are referring to costs you 20 million dollars this year. if you had the choice of getting your money back or have the same expense made, what would you do now?

How about Caron Butler? How did that work out with Matt Barnes as the Kings are still paying his contract.

 

[ppine]

I would do it again. Vet players are on the floor, in the locker room and on the plane. They are intertwinned with the rookies and young players. Coaches are the management. There is a big difference.
I learned more from good players on our team than I ever did from coaches. I played against them in practice all the time.

 

[24 rick barry]

Jul 10, 2015 - Free-agent forward Caron Butler has reportedly agreed to a two-year deal with the Sacramento Kings.
Dec 16, 2015 - The Kings have said to Caron Butler that he will be dealt to a team with which he can play a larger role, sources say.

Reports: Kings, Matt Barnes agree to 2-year, $12 million deal
Matt Barnes surrenders to cops over nightclub brawl
Divac announced that the team has waived forward Matt Barnes.

Barnes, 36, signed a two-year, $12.5 million deal with the Kings during the summer, with a player option for the second season. Sacramento is allowed to use the stretch provision for Barnes' salary, breaking it up over a five-year stretch.

“It was time for a change and I decided this was the best direction for the organization, said Divac. “Winning begins with culture and character matters.
Sacramento Kings' Zach Randolph arrested amid clash with police in Nickerson Gardens

 

[King Baller]

Jul 10, 2015 - Free-agent forward Caron Butler has reportedly agreed to a two-year deal with the Sacramento Kings.
Dec 16, 2015 - The Kings have said to Caron Butler that he will be dealt to a team with which he can play a larger role, sources say.

Reports: Kings, Matt Barnes agree to 2-year, $12 million deal
Matt Barnes surrenders to cops over nightclub brawl
Divac announced that the team has waived forward Matt Barnes.

Barnes, 36, signed a two-year, $12.5 million deal with the Kings during the summer, with a player option for the second season. Sacramento is allowed to use the stretch provision for Barnes' salary, breaking it up over a five-year stretch.

“It was time for a change and I decided this was the best direction for the organization, said Divac. “Winning begins with culture and character matters.
Sacramento Kings' Zach Randolph arrested amid clash with police in Nickerson Gardens

Is there a point to your post?

 

[King Baller]

I thought that is the reason you have a coaching staff.

The tutelage you are referring to costs you 20 million dollars this year. if you had the choice of getting your money back or have the same expense made, what would you do now?

How about Caron Butler? How did that work out with Matt Barnes as the Kings are still paying his contract.

The tutelage cost me nothing Butler and Barnes are history. have you watched any games lately? It is all about the Young Fellas

 

[24 rick barry]

I go to every home game.

I was questioning the use of "Mentors." I believe Barnes is still on the books. Teams that want to get into the free agent market place want to get well under the salary cap. Why waste money on "Mentors" when it's possible to use that salary cap space wisely to pick up assets that come with the dumping of bad contracts. Those assets/draft choices can be combined to upgrade a draft choice in a given year, or used as a trade chip. Put these assets together, draft wisely and get a shot at a big free agent. For instance, Philly has 2 potential stars though the draft and have plenty of cap space to see if they can add a Lebron. I like their formula better than ours. I like Boston's too as they added extra draft choices, of which resulted in the landing of a star point guard-Kyrie. You just don't dump our future number 1 for us 2019, under the circumstances. Vlade did.

 

[HndsmCelt]

I go to every home game.

I was questioning the use of "Mentors." I believe Barnes is still on the books. Teams that want to get into the free agent market place want to get well under the salary cap. Why waste money on "Mentors" when it's possible to use that salary cap space wisely to pick up assets that come with the dumping of bad contracts. Those assets/draft choices can be combined to upgrade a draft choice in a given year, or used as a trade chip. Put these assets together, draft wisely and get a shot at a big free agent. For instance, Philly has 2 potential stars though the draft and have plenty of cap space to see if they can add a Lebron. I like their formula better than ours. I like Boston's too as they added extra draft choices, of which resulted in the landing of a star point guard-Kyrie. You just don't dump our future number 1 for us 2019, under the circumstances. Vlade did.

I think you misunderstand the Kings position in terms of salary at this point. Next season assuming KK, Shump and Temple all opt in the Kings will have about 25 mill to fill 2 roster spots, and even that is misleading as we will HAVE to sign our pick who can not make over 5 so in essence to "hit the cap" the Kings would have to sign one player for about 20 mill for the year. Given the roster full of rookie contracts the Kings have about the fourth largest cap space with only room for one player.

If some or all of our 3 vets with options opt out that might actually enhance our position given the play of Samson and the 2nd round pick we have. The Kings could have about 50 mill to sign 2 top FA's with in that scenario. I am sure that some one like Captain Factorial can get even more precise with numbers since I littlerly just did back of the envelope math on this (I need to pay that Verizon bill).

 

[ppine]

If you make room on your roster by not signing Carter and Randolph, you still have to pay some salary to two other guys. The Kings have trouble getting top name FAs to sign anyway. I don't see a lot of opportunity cost associated with signing vets.

If you have a team full of teenagers and 20 yos, they are not going to have any leadership to keep them in line. Everything is brand new to them. They can easily resort to acting like kids which is what most of them really are. Players like Carter and Randolph have had a much bigger positive impact than people realize.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

^ So much that - not to mention they are Joerger guys, which is important when you're stressing culture.

I can be critical with that type of move when its filling the final pieces on a contending team and then suddenly you're stuck relying on a coach's pick when there's an injury in a key stretch. But for a young rebuilding team knowing the vets and coach are on the same page is essential.

 

[sactowndog]

Personally, I am not into mentors. I think we have coaches that are there to teach. I am only about how best to position ourselves to WIN. To me, it would be about staying below the cap and be there to pick up poorly made overpaid contracts for other valuable assets. Kings drafted 2 point guards. Hill another point guard, was in place to mentor at a cost of 19 mil per year. Didn't work out. Now as a result you have an overpaid 11 million player on the books who is unlikely to play any minutes the remainder of this year and not only that, management wishes that he does not exercise his 11 million dollar option for next season.

What are the Kings trying to accomplish?

Actually I’m not sure that management wants them to opt out. We have our cap space targeting 2019-20. We want to have a good year next year and if Shumpert or Temple can help us do it we will play them. Right now most people think the Kings are a perpetual bottom 5 team. We aren’t going to sign anyone except maybe Hezonja this summer.

Now if we get a good draft pick and Fox, Bogdan, Skal and Giles all show improvement next year then the Kings might entice someone to join them. So we are aligning our money with hopefully the right time.

 

[24 rick barry]

Actually I’m not sure that management wants them to opt out. We have our cap space targeting 2019-20. We want to have a good year next year and if Shumpert or Temple can help us do it we will play them. Right now most people think the Kings are a perpetual bottom 5 team. We aren’t going to sign anyone except maybe Hezonja this summer.

Now if we get a good draft pick and Fox, Bogdan, Skal and Giles all show improvement next year then the Kings might entice someone to join them. So we are aligning our money with hopefully the right time.

I think that they would plan on playing Shumpert to some extent if they had any plans of wanting him next year. They would then be more able to see how he blends with Fox, Skal. It looks to be that we are stacked at 2 and from the looks of it from sidelines, he looks like a 2 to me.

 

[24 rick barry]

If you make room on your roster by not signing Carter and Randolph, you still have to pay some salary to two other guys. The Kings have trouble getting top name FAs to sign anyway. I don't see a lot of opportunity cost associated with signing vets.

If you have a team full of teenagers and 20 yos, they are not going to have any leadership to keep them in line. Everything is brand new to them. They can easily resort to acting like kids which is what most of them really are. Players like Carter and Randolph have had a much bigger positive impact than people realize.

And this is where i would be picking up bad veteran contracts combined with kickers/valuable assets.

My example would be to be a team so far under the cap that would allow me to absorb a Landry, Thompson, Stauskus, with the kicker of an lottery pick swap and a future unrestricted number 1. Because my team would be under the cap, my trading partner would not have to take anything back.

 

[King Baller]

And this is where i would be picking up bad veteran contracts combined with kickers/valuable assets.

My example would be to be a team so far under the cap that would allow me to absorb a Landry, Thompson, Stauskus, with the kicker of an lottery pick swap and a future unrestricted number 1. Because my team would be under the cap, my trading partner would not have to take anything back.

Dude you would get fired, just like Hinkie

 

[VF21]

And this is where i would be picking up bad veteran contracts combined with kickers/valuable assets.

My example would be to be a team so far under the cap that would allow me to absorb a Landry, Thompson, Stauskus, with the kicker of an lottery pick swap and a future unrestricted number 1. Because my team would be under the cap, my trading partner would not have to take anything back.

I'm so glad you're not in our front office.

 

[sactowndog]

I think that they would plan on playing Shumpert to some extent if they had any plans of wanting him next year. They would then be more able to see how he blends with Fox, Skal. It looks to be that we are stacked at 2 and from the looks of it from sidelines, he looks like a 2 to me.

I think the figure out fit in practice. I think he is a wing but a strong defender. I could see him playing 2 with Bogdan sliding over to be the primary ball handler.

 

[24 rick barry]

Dude you would get fired, just like Hinkie

What you agree that Philly currently is in a better position than we are?

 

[24 rick barry]

I'm so glad you're not in our front office.

Because we have done so well?

 

[VF21]

Because we have done so well?

Yeah, that's it.

 

[24 rick barry]

If I may, are you suggesting that it is better for our long term prospects for us to spend $20 million to 2 players in free agency - Carter and ZBO and win say 25 games then to:
a. spend less (of course spending above the NBA minimum) and play the younger players and win say 16
or
b. spend $20 million on veterans with bad contracts that have been traded to us along with other assets/draft choices and win say 20 games

This league appears to me to be either you're in the hunt or you are not. After 20 games last year, I spoke to Koz and told him that we know the 7 playoff teams in the west already. And for a while last year, it was decided to try and go for the 8th spot. Then the plan changed.

Would you say the Philly, Lakers, Boston are in better position than we are? I would say that they all employed the somewhat of a similar strategy. All in or all out -defined as positioning yourself strategically for long term success.

 

[The Effort Police]

Dude you would get fired, just like Hinkie

I'm so glad you're not in our front office.

Why would he be fired? That's called asset acquisition. Brooklyn did something like that this past off-season and it was a contribution to Sean Marks having a reputation as a good GM.

In fact, teams are starting getting wary of attaching picks to move their bad contracts because it's seen as not worth it.

Every so often someone suggests a move and then you guys shoot it down with statements like this because it goes against the grain of the Kings's direction (that is, NOT acquire assets or draft picks and instead pay veteran free agents for mentorship or whatever), while sweeping under the rug Vlade's actual moves that are an order of magnitude worse.

 

[King Baller]

If I may, are you suggesting that it is better for our long term prospects for us to spend $20 million to 2 players in free agency - Carter and ZBO and win say 25 games then to:
a. spend less (of course spending above the NBA minimum) and play the younger players and win say 16
or
b. spend $20 million on veterans with bad contracts that have been traded to us along with other assets/draft choices and win say 20 games

This league appears to me to be either you're in the hunt or you are not. After 20 games last year, I spoke to Koz and told him that we know the 8 playoffs teams in the west already. And for a while last year, it was decided to try and go for the 8th spot. Then the plan changed.

Would you say the Philly, Lakers, Boston are in better position than we are? I would say that they all employed the somewhat of a similar strategy. All in or all out -defined as positioning yourself strategically for long term success.

Why would he be fired? That's called asset acquisition. Brooklyn did something like that this past off-season and it was a contribution to Sean Marks having a reputation as a good GM.

In fact, teams are starting getting wary of attaching picks to move their bad contracts because it's seen as not worth it.

Every so often someone suggests a move and then you guys shoot it down with statements like this because it goes against the grain of the Kings's direction (that is, NOT acquire assets or draft picks and instead pay veteran free agents for mentorship or whatever), while sweeping under the rug Vlade's actual moves that are an order of magnitude worse.

Sure I get it. Acquire picks by taking on long bad contracts. My point was that Hinkie got fired doing this sort of thing. So many of his draft picks did not pan out is another reason he got fired. Until Embiid and Simmons stay healthy long term the Hinkie Mega Tank will not be proven no matter how many times we all here "The Process" spoken in reverent tones

 

[24 rick barry]

Sure I get it. Acquire picks by taking on long bad contracts. My point was that Hinkie got fired doing this sort of thing. So many of his draft picks did not pan out is another reason he got fired. Until Embiid and Simmons stay healthy long term the Hinkie Mega Tank will not be proven no matter how many times we all here "The Process" spoken in reverent tones

The 76ers are currently in the playoff hunt in 6th place in the East. I think they will be a playoff team. Also, reportedly they are one of the 4 teams in the running for Lebron with loads of money available to sign a free agent or two.

Currently, are the 76ers in a better position than the Kings?

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I thought the NBA actually forced Hinkie out because what he was doing was so blatant. I wish they would do that to the teams this year that are blatantly tanking.

I still like our culture though. These things do matter. It's frustrating as hell watching teams be so blatant as to commit intentional turnovers or draw bad technicals, etc. Was it Dallas and Chicago or something a few weeks ago where one team put 4 on the floor and the other couldn't score? Jeeezus. At some point a team is going to sink one in their own basket if this keeps up.

 

[fansinceday1]

This laker cavs game is entertaining as hell.

I challenge anyone to watch this game and tell me that the Kings are anywhere close to where the lakers are. They have done a great job developing their young guys.

It really sucks how inept this franchise is.

 

[Telemachus]

This laker cavs game is entertaining as hell.

I challenge anyone to watch this game and tell me that the Kings are anywhere close to where the lakers are. They have done a great job developing their young guys.

It really sucks how inept this franchise is.

One of the problems the Lakers have is that they have put a lotof stock in the idea of getting 2 big FAs this off season. You could make an argument that Randle and KCP have been 2 of their best players this year and it is very likely that both won't be back. If they don't get those big signings, they will take a step backwards next year.

 

[King Baller]

The 76ers are currently in the playoff hunt in 6th place in the East. I think they will be a playoff team. Also, reportedly they are one of the 4 teams in the running for Lebron with loads of money available to sign a free agent or two.

Currently, are the 76ers in a better position than the Kings?

Sixers would likely not make the Playoffs in the West. So

The 76ers are currently in the playoff hunt in 6th place in the East. I think they will be a playoff team. Also, reportedly they are one of the 4 teams in the running for Lebron with loads of money available to sign a free agent or two.

Currently, are the 76ers in a better position than the Kings?

Hinkie was fired, right?

 

[Gguod]

I hope some people would come back here to reflect on their thinking process. First pages of this thread is funny as hell to read now when everyone sees (or should see) how things are. I hope we get smarter as a franchise and as fans after the past offseason.

This really isnt rocket science. Everybody should've known we would be in the tanking race. Still we locked a lot of money to unneccecary vets and didnt utilize our cap space to gather assets. Big mistakes like this will be a big factor on wether the rebuild works or not.

The worst case scenario: Not getting any additional assets while trying to lose, playing vets too much and we end up with 5-8th pick. And god forbid some of you were actively advocating for this worst case scenario

 

[LPKingsFan]

Hinkie was fired, right?

This sounds like saying, "Mike Malone got fired, so you shouldn't try playing bully ball with DeMarcus Cousins."