I agree. I think Zbo looks good when he's making his shots, but when he's not, it's horrible offense to watch.
Hill does best in a Darren Collison role. Trying to force him to be a #1 scorer will backfire
The direction of the Carter/Randolph signings
- Thread starter Kingsfan23
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Hill does best in a Darren Collison role. Trying to force him to be a #1 scorer will backfire
ockingsfan
Starter
ZBo really needs to be coming off the bench at this point of his career. He looks too out of shape, 15-20 min off the bench would be the best role for him.
ZBo should be serving the "Antoine Carr" scoring big off the bench roll for the Kings. Skal should be starting.
VC is good in situations, when you need a bucket, 10-12 minutes a game max.
Fox needs to be starting! If they need Hill starting, they should move him to shooting guard and move Buddy to the 6th man role. I would start Bogdan at Small Forward.
ZBo should be serving the "Antoine Carr" scoring big off the bench roll for the Kings. Skal should be starting.
VC is good in situations, when you need a bucket, 10-12 minutes a game max.
Fox needs to be starting! If they need Hill starting, they should move him to shooting guard and move Buddy to the 6th man role. I would start Bogdan at Small Forward.
Now that we are a few games in the reality of the NBA is setting in. It is physical every night and involves travel. The three older guys look worn out already. Their greatest value may be on the bench, in the locker room. on the plane and in the hotel. They can put up some good minutes at the end of games. They can help with the intangibles. I don't see Randolph and Carter as starters getting big minutes, but they still are valuable to the team. Hill is tougher to figure out. He had the big first game but has not been heard from since.
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Larry David
Starter
Antoine Carr reference for the win!
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Hill has started the last two games with very uninspired starts. I think he would agree with that assessment. (He seems like he's his own worst critic). I wonder if not being on a playoff bound team is affecting him somewhat mentally. He has to re-order his thought process to come of the blocks fast on offense and be a disruptor on defense. He's got to get into the mindset that he's got to fight the good fight every single night even though this team isn't going to win much this year. My gut tells me that Hill would be better off pairing with Fox, both on the defensive and offensive end of the floor. For some reason that I can't quite wrap my mind around the chemistry doesn't seem that great with him and Buddy.
Larry David
Starter
The narrative supporting these substantial contracts were that the Kings had already assembled a lot of the prospects that would carry Sacramento back to the playoffs by 2020 and the vets and coach would ensure the Kings would always play hard and typically be entertaining. 2918 pick was big part of the plan but this would probably be a quick reb
10% into this season, both seem unlikely.
The Kings can nail a great 2018 pick. Other than that, they better get great at player development. Because other than the 2018 pick, not much he is coming
10% into this season, both seem unlikely.
The Kings can nail a great 2018 pick. Other than that, they better get great at player development. Because other than the 2018 pick, not much he is coming
KingsFanGER
Starter
The main mistake is that we signed vets not able to play to our young players strengths, but instead altering the playstyle of the team and hampering the development of our young core. It's not suprising at all, that Temple is the guy, who looks best, when playing with the young guns.
When we take a look at what the 76ers did this year, it's obvious, how they aquired veteran role models and kept cap flexibility for next season, without altering their playstyle at all, giving their young core pieces everything they need to develop. Simmons is operating in a spaced floor and has 4 running mates on the break. Embiid has pesty defenders to cover the perimeter for him and can kick it out to some reliable shooters. 76ers have some nice wing depth and in case they have troubles creating offense through Embiid or Simmons, there is Saric as a fallback option.
Yes the 76ers are a step ahead, because they already have their franchise cornerstone of the future, but they also did a much better job of building a roster around him and his rookie partner in crime.
They saw something in Embiid and Simmons and went all in.
That's what I want the Kings to do.
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Kingster
Hall of Famer
That does seem to be the case. You would think that Hill would also be able to play with pace, but so far I haven't seen it. It's interesting that Temple was kept out of the last game.
I do have to point out though that the 76ers started a real rebuild much earlier than the Kings and that rebuild got derailed because of injuries. Given how long ago the 76ers tore the entire thing down I would expect them to be far ahead of the Kings by now.
KingsFanGER
Starter
That's true. Still they seem to handle things a bit smarter now.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
One thing that I do want to give the 76ers is that every time I saw them over the last two or three years they played very hard even though they knew it was an uphill climb because of their lack of talent and inexperience. I would hope that the Kings could find the same inspiration that they had.
They won't
Unless we get Brett Brown and fire our coach who just irks my nerve especially now that he looks like he's wearing makeup with his new makeover he's obsessed with smdh
As I expected the Zbo contract was a huge mistake. Team would be so much better off by having Demarre Carrol and that 1str rounder. You just simply cannot lock yourself up for two years 12/mil per year with a guy that only offers "mentoring".
Look at the cap situation throughout the league right now. The cap space will be so freaking valuable next summer since only few teams have it so you will get very well compensated for taking on some salary. Or you would be one of the few teams able to give big contract to a great player. But what the Kings did? They spent 24mil on a player that isnt even playable. Another mistake by this franchise because of being short sighted. I really hoped that the Cousins trade ment that we were ready to be patient for few years and build our team intelligently but unfortunately it didnt happen.
Look at the cap situation throughout the league right now. The cap space will be so freaking valuable next summer since only few teams have it so you will get very well compensated for taking on some salary. Or you would be one of the few teams able to give big contract to a great player. But what the Kings did? They spent 24mil on a player that isnt even playable. Another mistake by this franchise because of being short sighted. I really hoped that the Cousins trade ment that we were ready to be patient for few years and build our team intelligently but unfortunately it didnt happen.
Larry David
Starter
The Kings weren’t interested in the Carrol trade or another move that rented out cap space for a young asset, because it appears they believed they had already assembled the majority of their "young core" (with the 2018 pick filling in the remaining gaps). They thought they already had the foundation and they would simply grow what they already had into a playoff team. Adding 2 years of pricey Zbo made sense, to them, because he could mentor prospects that were likely to develop into high end starters. Conversely, the upside of more young prospects wasn't worth not having mentors.
I thought that plan seemed really bad a few months ago, because other than Fox, I don't think the Kings have many slam dunk prospects. Other than Fox, Bogs, and maybe Buddy, I think all the prospects could either break out, flame out, so be so-so.
I personally don't think the Kings are struggling because they are "young" and "learning." Of course, all of the young players are still learning. I think the Kings are getting run through the wood chipper because they are bad. And based upon the pedigree of the majority of their "young core", I think its fairly uncertain that time and seasoning will cure their ills.
I thought that plan seemed really bad a few months ago, because other than Fox, I don't think the Kings have many slam dunk prospects. Other than Fox, Bogs, and maybe Buddy, I think all the prospects could either break out, flame out, so be so-so.
I personally don't think the Kings are struggling because they are "young" and "learning." Of course, all of the young players are still learning. I think the Kings are getting run through the wood chipper because they are bad. And based upon the pedigree of the majority of their "young core", I think its fairly uncertain that time and seasoning will cure their ills.
Kingsfan23
All-Star
Absolutely...
There is a part of me that hopes the Carroll thing wasn’t on the table when the Kings made those moves, and Toronto got desperate further in the summer, but yeah, the space should’ve been spent on assets and it appeared it wasn’t because of a confident belief in the mass of talent already assembled
This is the part that scares me. I think Fox will our franchise PG of the future, but that's about the only position we have solidified for our rebuild. I wouldn't even be confident with Buddy or Bogdan as our franchise SGs....
Kings desperately need to see if one of these guys can be a franchise player. If not, to the draft we go.....
I saw this comment on another kings board and it's exactly the way I feel: We are building around young talent that's not very good.
8 games in and our young talent, other than Fox, is deemed not very good. Sheesh.
For me, Fox has a chance to be all-star type, BB8 looks to be very good, and the others? Take Justin Jackson for example....if his upside is going to be Tayshaun Prince, what is he supposed to be showing right now? We have good young talent, but we don't have the 1 or 2 franchise yet as they are either too young to tell (Fox, BB8, Giles) or not acquired yet. We have surrounding pieces I believe but it will take more than 8 games to know what we got. More like 1 1/2 years in best case scenario before knowing what we got. That is the risk. Last thing we need to do is make snap judgements on guys.
For me, Fox has a chance to be all-star type, BB8 looks to be very good, and the others? Take Justin Jackson for example....if his upside is going to be Tayshaun Prince, what is he supposed to be showing right now? We have good young talent, but we don't have the 1 or 2 franchise yet as they are either too young to tell (Fox, BB8, Giles) or not acquired yet. We have surrounding pieces I believe but it will take more than 8 games to know what we got. More like 1 1/2 years in best case scenario before knowing what we got. That is the risk. Last thing we need to do is make snap judgements on guys.
twslam07
All-Star
I've been of a similar mindset. We have a lot of good prospects but we don't have a lot of upper echelon prospects who have very good chances at becoming stars in this league. Fox, Labissiere, & Giles are really the only players I see that could get there, but they all have their question marks (Giles more than the other two and Labissiere more than Fox). We could easily end up developing 0-1 stars on this team and then we're back to the team we just had with Cousins as our lone star or worse (with no stars).
We need to continue to collect assets until we know we have multiple stars in the making. If we count our chickens before we hatch and start handing out extensions signing win now veterans, etc., we hamstring our franchise once again. I don't even care that we don't have a pick in 2019. That's done. We can't do anything to change that, but what we can change is how we approach our rebuild. People talk about rebuilding the right way. Well then continue to collect assets until you know you have a couple of young studs/stars on your team and THEN begin to move forward. Having 10+ youngsters on our team doesn't help us if the majority of them are not going to result in the star players we need to build this team around.
Ideally, we hit on Fox, Labissiere, & Giles and they all become all-star caliber players while also landing one in next years draft (Porter). Then you have Fox/Bogdanovic/Porter/Labissiere/Giles as a roster that could have 3-4 stars on the team, but again, we basically need to go 100% with our current star potential talent and next year's pick. That line of thinking is pretty optimistic.
Kingsfan23
All-Star
Fox will be good, and I think that Hield/Skal/JJ/Frank/Bogdan/even Papa (not high on WCS/Malachi) can all be solid. It’s just not a base to look to add mentors as if there was a set nucleus yet IMO
Other than body type, I don't see the Tayshaun Prince comparison.
Right now his shooting percentages are really solid. He's the 5th option when he's out there and plays within the offense about as well as a rookie could. My one main gripe with him is whether he can rebound well enough to stay on the floor? In 6 of the 8 games, he's had 1 or 0 rebounds. That unacceptable for a guy averaging 17mpg. He was a below average rebounder for his size in college but so far he's looking like an all time poor rebounder in the NBA. Is it just a small sample size or is he just that afraid of contact? His floater game tells me he doesn't like contact at all. I'm not going to judge a guys career based on a handful of games but we know from the history of the NBA that most guys don't up their rebounding game all that much from college to the pros. Avery Bradley did it last year. Sabonis is doing it this year. But it's such a small percentage that you can't rely on that. I'm just hoping it's more small sample size than anything because our poor rebounding at the SF position is part of the reason why we're being doubled up in rebounds by teams like the Celtics.
The Effort Police
Starter
These signings are failures, no other way around it. I was neutral on the Carter signing, was iffy on the Hill signing, and hated the Zbo signing. I'm with everyone on the Carroll trade. If we could've got Toronto's 1st for that salary dump I do it in a heartbeat. I can't believe people didn't want to do that; it was so much better than signing Zbo and Hill.
Ironically, the guys we have now would've been ideal for a Cousins team. Well, George Hill is particular, not so much Zbo. And the guys we had last year? Not so much good for Cousins, but ideal for what we have now. We honestly should've gone with Lawson over Hill. Hill is one of the least ball dominant but also among the worst handlers and playmakers among starting PGs. Everywhere he's been he's had someone else able to do a lot of that for him. Compare to a guy like Lawson, could he absolutely help the young bigs like Skal and WCS? I think so.
And Carter? I initially was okay with that, but if I had known that Joerger would want to "steal" minutes at the 4 here and there for him when there's this huge, gaping hole at the 3 while eating into Skal's minutes (cuz it's definitely not gonna come at the expense of Zbo), AND he's playing awful, I wouldn't even bother.
And Zbo? Gets arrested before the season, trash mentor. Chucking and he's the focal point of the offense.
Lawson, Jonathan Simmons, Carroll, and Toronto's 1st. Much better acquisitions than these three.
Trade these guys yesterday, though of course I know we can't yet.
Ironically, the guys we have now would've been ideal for a Cousins team. Well, George Hill is particular, not so much Zbo. And the guys we had last year? Not so much good for Cousins, but ideal for what we have now. We honestly should've gone with Lawson over Hill. Hill is one of the least ball dominant but also among the worst handlers and playmakers among starting PGs. Everywhere he's been he's had someone else able to do a lot of that for him. Compare to a guy like Lawson, could he absolutely help the young bigs like Skal and WCS? I think so.
And Carter? I initially was okay with that, but if I had known that Joerger would want to "steal" minutes at the 4 here and there for him when there's this huge, gaping hole at the 3 while eating into Skal's minutes (cuz it's definitely not gonna come at the expense of Zbo), AND he's playing awful, I wouldn't even bother.
And Zbo? Gets arrested before the season, trash mentor. Chucking and he's the focal point of the offense.
Lawson, Jonathan Simmons, Carroll, and Toronto's 1st. Much better acquisitions than these three.
Trade these guys yesterday, though of course I know we can't yet.
Larry David
Starter
I'd bet on Jackson being poor Man's Francisco Garcia as opposed to Tayshaun Prince, but that's just me.
I feel like there's an odd misconception. People think that just because the Kings are young, it means that they're talented. You would think fans would know better after seeing Jimmer/T-Rob/Ben/Stauskas.
JJ is probably more current Trevor Ariza. He was drafted out of UNC to be a role player. All teams need role players, but I'd rather the Kings draft a player with more upside than JJ.
I can definitely see a Cisco type player. Jackson needs a bit more edge in him though.
Kingsfan23
All-Star
According to Doris Burke last night Hill/Randolph said no when Joerger approached them about reduced minutes.. Forgetting the fact that it shouldn’t be their decision, I called into question the whole media narrative, and thought they could’ve been random vets that came here simply due to salary and on court concerns
John Galt
Starter
Francisco Garcia is a poor man's Francisco Garcia
John Galt
Starter
Does anybody really want or expect an NBA vet with a winning pedigree/all star to embrace the idea of reduced minutes? Doesn't mean Dave won't do it anyway.
Dave: "I'm thinking we're gonna need to siphon off some more minutes to Skal and Mason."
Zach: "That sucks"
George: "That sucks"
No problem here imo. I haven't seen any evidence that Dave needs anybody's permission to do anything. I don't even mind if they keep George's minutes up thru Dec 15.
That's not exactly what she said. Her comments were more along the line that they want to contribute and not just be bench warmers.
Randolph is playing like the player of old. There is no doubt that his defense is not good, but he is the team leader at this point. He is the guy to get a bucket at the beginning of games, at the end and whenever the Kings stand around. He generates his own offense. He has great hands and shooting touch. His ability to get position can be taught to the other big men. He matched DMC on the stat sheet against the Pels.
Vince has so much athletic ability that he can still compete at 40. Mentally he is right there and provides leadership at critical times. He covered AD last night with great success against the Pels.
Vince has so much athletic ability that he can still compete at 40. Mentally he is right there and provides leadership at critical times. He covered AD last night with great success against the Pels.
ockingsfan
Starter
So far, ZBo and VC are holding up their end of the deal for which they signed. I don't have a problem with either one of those two signings. ZBo and VC are doing exactly (or more) than what Vlade brought them in for.
But, we need George Hill to step up, to at least give us a chance to trade him at the deadline.
I feel that Hill's contract is holding up this whole team, because you can't put Hill on the bench and start a young guy at shooting guard. Benching Hill would kill any possibility of trading Hill come February.
But, Buddy or Bogdan should be starting at SG.
But, we need George Hill to step up, to at least give us a chance to trade him at the deadline.
I feel that Hill's contract is holding up this whole team, because you can't put Hill on the bench and start a young guy at shooting guard. Benching Hill would kill any possibility of trading Hill come February.
But, Buddy or Bogdan should be starting at SG.
Kingsfan23
All-Star
Vince has done a good job as a mentor, and Zach’s second year looks the big of a handicap I originally thought (in terms of how else it could be spent this summer)..
No use in crying over spilt milk, but, it was a philosophy I didn’t agree with, and, more importantly, I hope isn’t repeated. Lottery teams in general look to acquire assets over spending on players at the tail ends of careeers. This summer, I want every ounce of space spent on assets going forward, and I’m reticent about who made the original moves sharing that view.
Hopefully it was just a one summer thing, where quality FAs were not available and the Raptors Carroll salary dump had not availed itself. I’ll anticipate that, as it should be a buyers market in FA, and not a lot of teams will have space so it should be easy to get compensation in salary dumps
No use in crying over spilt milk, but, it was a philosophy I didn’t agree with, and, more importantly, I hope isn’t repeated. Lottery teams in general look to acquire assets over spending on players at the tail ends of careeers. This summer, I want every ounce of space spent on assets going forward, and I’m reticent about who made the original moves sharing that view.
Hopefully it was just a one summer thing, where quality FAs were not available and the Raptors Carroll salary dump had not availed itself. I’ll anticipate that, as it should be a buyers market in FA, and not a lot of teams will have space so it should be easy to get compensation in salary dumps
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