[The Athletic] Kings request permission to interview candidates for head of basketball operations

[macadocious]

I’m actually quite happy about this. Wanted no part of that guy.

You got something against Alaskans?

 

[kb02]

I have to agree here. Toronto may have more appeal since they are winning right now, and they are absolutely a world class city but they've never had the free agency appeal that a city like Miami has. There's a multitude of reasons that many players make their offseason homes in Florida but few stay in Toronto (weather, taxes, party vibe).

That said, it's tough to draw market comparisons because under the right circumstances much of that could change and Toronto would offer some pretty big advantages. I tend to think of Denver and Portland as maybe the best comparisons. No surprise that our best GM helped lead Portland to some of their finest moments. Would that give Booth an edge?

If we are really committed to hiring before the end of September I imagine we will have to give pretty decent compensation if we take a team's #2 away before the draft - probably more than just the second rounder NYK gave for Perry, as that came after the draft and the opening of the FA signing period.

I don’t recall any teams needing to give up compensation for an assistant GM. Do you know of anyone who has?

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I don’t recall any teams needing to give up compensation for an assistant GM. Do you know of anyone who has?

Perry was an assistant GM when the Knicks gave us a second round pick and cash for him.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I don’t recall any teams needing to give up compensation for an assistant GM. Do you know of anyone who has?

I specifically referenced one.

Its more about timing than anything. Perry was poached AFTER the draft and FA period. Imagine your #2 FO personnel person is leaving to another team with full knowledge of your draft board and season scouting. You are not going to let that go without getting something in return because odds are the Kings are picking ahead of the departing team and all that knowledge transfers over.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Perry was an assistant GM when the Knicks gave us a second round pick and cash for him.

I wonder if the issue here is semantics. Perry was our #2 because our GM is the top decision maker. Other teams have a VP of basketball operations as the top decision maker, making the GM the #2. The more precise question is whether teams have received compensation for letting their front office #2 go, and as you note there is precedent.

 

[ockingsfan]

I specifically referenced one.

Its more about timing than anything. Perry was poached AFTER the draft and FA period. Imagine your #2 FO personnel person is leaving to another team with full knowledge of your draft board and season scouting. You are not going to let that go without getting something in return because odds are the Kings are picking ahead of the departing team and all that knowledge transfers over.

I would think a similar compensation, of one (or maybe two at most) 2nd round picks as compensation for poaching the #2 FO guy from a team.

Regardless of being before or after a draft, it's a bad look for any team to hold their FO guy hostage if they were offered a higher level position with more power and better pay with another team. I'm sure compensation will be needed, but I don't think anything too outrageous would be required.

 

[kb02]

I specifically referenced one.

Its more about timing than anything. Perry was poached AFTER the draft and FA period. Imagine your #2 FO personnel person is leaving to another team with full knowledge of your draft board and season scouting. You are not going to let that go without getting something in return because odds are the Kings are picking ahead of the departing team and all that knowledge transfers over.

Valid points. I don't think it'll be a first though. First, the Kings are not in position to give a first and second, almost every team that poaches another team's #2 is going to be drafting in the lottery. Outside of a legendary GM like Jerry West, don't see the NBA forcing a lottery team to give up their pick to hire a GM, much less a #2.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I would think a similar compensation, of one (or maybe two at most) 2nd round picks as compensation for poaching the #2 FO guy from a team.

Regardless of being before or after a draft, it's a bad look for any team to hold their FO guy hostage if they were offered a higher level position with more power and better pay with another team. I'm sure compensation will be needed, but I don't think anything too outrageous would be required.

That's true - but I don't think it's holding hostage to say they can't start until after the draft. Which is why I expected like the Perry situation we'd make the hire official after the draft.

I'm a little worried that if we really want someone right away it pushes us more towards someone like Wilcox who has a few red flags.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Valid points. I don't think it'll be a first though. First, the Kings are not in position to give a first and second, almost every team that poaches another team's #2 is going to be drafting in the lottery. Outside of a legendary GM like Jerry West, don't see the NBA forcing a lottery team to give up their pick to hire a GM, much less a #2.

I was thinking multiple #2s, maybe one from next year or a later draft that is expected to be better than this draft.

 

[kb02]

Speaking of second round picks, anyone know why Vlade had such a fetish for them?

 

[kb02]

I was thinking multiple #2s, maybe one from next year or a later draft that is expected to be better than this draft.

The Kings have like 8 gazzillion over the next few years, so that shouldn't be an issue. That said, just give one of this year's seconds (the last one, preferably), some cash and call it a day.

 

[Iced Espresso]

Speaking of second round picks, anyone know why Vlade had such a fetish for them?

Instead of using cap space to try to get a first or prospect and taking on undesirable salary, he just signed FA outright for undesirable salary, then flipped that for worse salary later which only provided a second.

Like Kindergarten Crayon Hinke, cause culture.

 

[ockingsfan]

That's true - but I don't think it's holding hostage to say they can't start until after the draft. Which is why I expected like the Perry situation we'd make the hire official after the draft.

I'm a little worried that if we really want someone right away it pushes us more towards someone like Wilcox who has a few red flags.

Here is the thing about making the other team wait for a F.O. guy (i.e. until after the draft). There is no guarentee that the Kings would wait. The Kings may chose to go with someone else, if the team does not allow their #2 to leave before the draft, when the job is offered. Plus, the compensation the Kings are willing to offer the other team may change also (i.e. Vlade's trade of DMC).

If the Kings go in another direction, because they want a GM in place by the draft, that #2 F.O. guy that was passed over becomes a disgruntled employee for his current team, because he just lost a lot of money and the opportunity of a lifetime to lead his own team.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Here is the thing about making the other team wait for a F.O. guy (i.e. until after the draft). There is no guarentee that the Kings would wait. The Kings may chose to go with someone else, if the team does not allow their #2 to leave before the draft, when the job is offered. Plus, the compensation the Kings are willing to offer the other team may change also (i.e. Vlade's trade of DMC).

If the Kings go in another direction, because they want a GM in place by the draft, that #2 F.O. guy that was passed over becomes a disgruntled employee for his current team, because he just lost a lot of money and the opportunity of a lifetime to lead his own team.

But this isn't filling a front desk receptionist when your phones are ringing off the hook and you just need a body. These guys likely will have other opportunities not just one crack. And for the Kings, if they have to wait a few extra weeks to get their #1, they'd be foolish to pick someone else because of that. Everybody understands the proprietary information at play here too. The other option would be a gentleman's agreement that certain players the team are scouting are off limits. That is a huge lose for the Kings in the event that player was also on their board.

Again look at Perry - I'm sure NYK had eyed him for a while, and a deal was in the works, but he had to wait.

My prediction is if we hire before the draft the guy we have will underwhelm most of the posters here. I will be very happy to be wrong.

 

[ockingsfan]

But this isn't filling a front desk receptionist when your phones are ringing off the hook and you just need a body. These guys likely will have other opportunities not just one crack. And for the Kings, if they have to wait a few extra weeks to get their #1, they'd be foolish to pick someone else because of that. Everybody understands the proprietary information at play here too. The other option would be a gentleman's agreement that certain players the team are scouting are off limits. That is a huge lose for the Kings in the event that player was also on their board.

Again look at Perry - I'm sure NYK had eyed him for a while, and a deal was in the works, but he had to wait.

My prediction is if we hire before the draft the guy we have will underwhelm most of the posters here. I will be very happy to be wrong.

I would agree that it would be best to get your #1 choice.

But, it is the threat that the Kings may look elsewhere, that helps gets a deal done sooner, rather than later. If the Kings go in willing to wait and the other team knows it, then they won't get their man when they need them most, before the draft.

As for Scott Perry timeline, the Knicks still had Phil Jackson as GM until after the 2017 NBA draft. Phil Jackson didn't resign until after the NBA draft. The Knicks weren't in the market for a new GM until after the draft.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

You got something against Alaskans?

Not especially Just Dukies!

But that wasn’t the main reason I didn’t prefer Langdon.

 

[bajaden]

what other trades was he behind other than the Kings deal? Is he amazing at trades because he fleeced Vlade and created the Trade Machine?
so during all those stops as consultant to the GM, special adviser to the GM Assistant GM and VP of basketball operations he was never in the position to evaluate talent? don‘t you think talent evaluation is important for a GM?

Don't know if this has been posted or not, but maybe this will help. https://kingsherald.com/articles/kings-gm-candidate-profile-sachin-gupta/

 

[dude12]

Don't know if this has been posted or not, but maybe this will help. https://kingsherald.com/articles/kings-gm-candidate-profile-sachin-gupta/

A good read on him and I get he is an analytics guy. If his specialty is designing deals around picks and salaries and value that is all fine but will it lead to obtaining vets or younger guys we can build a better core? Is he a talent identifier or a numbers/data guy? The Wiggins deal was interesting. But the Saric plus 1.11 pick to get Culver.....I don’t know about that

 

[bajaden]

Speaking of second round picks, anyone know why Vlade had such a fetish for them?

The rumor, or the word is that the G-League will become more of a minor league system that resembles baseball's minor league system. The idea being that a team will be able to develop and protect all the players on it's G- league team. The hold up was, and to the best of my knowledge no longer is, that not every NBA team owned a G-League team, and therefore that move couldn't be made until that was remedied. I believe that every team how owns a G-League team. Don't bet money on it......

With that in mind, 2nd rd picks would suddenly become more valuable. Matter of fact there was another rumor that the league might go back to adding a 3rd rd to the draft. The problem was or is, is that no one knew for sure when that change would happen. At the end of the current CBA, or through negotiations between the League and the players association. So some teams started stock pilling 2nd rd picks in case. The Kings aren't the only team to do so. I'm sure the virus threw a monkey wrench into those plans to some degree as well.

 

[bajaden]

A good read on him and I get he is an analytics guy. If his specialty is designing deals around picks and salaries and value that is all fine but will it lead to obtaining vets or younger guys we can build a better core? Is he a talent identifier or a numbers/data guy? The Wiggins deal was interesting. But the Saric plus 1.11 pick to get Culver.....I don’t know about that

When he went to Minny, he and the current GM cleaned house, and mostly of veteran players and decided to build everything around their star Towns. They somehow moved salaries that most people thought were unmovable. Yeah, Wiggins was one of those, but there were three or four others that were on over-payed contracts.

In a four team deal they traded Jordan Bell and Robert Covington to the Rockets and they sent Keita Bates-Diop, Shabazz Napier, and Noah Vonleh to the Nuggets for Malik Beasley, Jaun Hermangomez and Jarred Vanderbilt. From the Hawks they received Evan Turner who was on an expiring contract and a 2020 1st rd pick.

They traded Andrew Wiggins and a top three protected 2021 1st rd pick for D'Angelo Russell and Omari Spellman.

In a three team deal they sent Gorgui Dieng to the Grizzlies and Treveon Graham and Jeff Teague to the Hawks receiving James Johnson from the Heat and Allen Crabbe, whose on an expiring contract from the Hawks.

As a result, they went from from $132,547,644.00 in guaranteed money to $75,324,395.00 in guaranteed money. A savings of $57,223,249.00.

Almost all the players that they received back were young players and of the three oldest, James Johnson, Allen Crabbe, and Evan Turner, only Johnson has guaranteed money for next season and it's his option. So all in all, not bad moves.

 

[Hoovtrain]

Don't know if this has been posted or not, but maybe this will help. https://kingsherald.com/articles/kings-gm-candidate-profile-sachin-gupta/

thanks. Been trying to read up on all these guys, and Gupta in particular based on the praise being given. Seems like a really bright guy, I just worry about the talent evaluation part. TBH, and this has nothing to do with him being Indian, he reminds me of Paraag Marathe with the skill sets he brings to the table, but I would not trust Paraag scouting talent

 

[bajaden]

thanks. Been trying to read up on all these guys, and Gupta in particular based on the praise being given. Seems like a really bright guy, I just worry about the talent evaluation part. TBH, and this has nothing to do with him being Indian, he reminds me of Paraag Marathe with the skill sets he brings to the table, but I would not trust Paraag scouting talent

Well Morey gives him full credit for bringing Harden to the Rockets from the Thunder, and he certainly recognized what a talent Harden was. Easy to say that it was an easy thing to see, but at the time the Thunder didn't know what they had in Harden, and when I proposed the Kings try and trade for him, I was told he was nothing but a chucker. Hind sight is a 100% as they say.

 

[Hoovtrain]

Well Morey gives him full credit for bringing Harden to the Rockets from the Thunder, and he certainly recognized what a talent Harden was. Easy to say that it was an easy thing to see, but at the time the Thunder didn't know what they had in Harden, and when I proposed the Kings try and trade for him, I was told he was nothing but a chucker. Hind sight is a 100% as they say.

ha. I was skeptical of him out of ASU, but by his 2nd year In OKC I was sold. Now whether I thought he’d be this good is another story lol
And see these are the examples I was looking for. Out of the 5-6 articles I’ve read on him I’ve only see the Kings trade and the HOU/NYK trade linked definitively to him

 

[dude12]

When he went to Minny, he and the current GM cleaned house, and mostly of veteran players and decided to build everything around their star Towns. They somehow moved salaries that most people thought were unmovable. Yeah, Wiggins was one of those, but there were three or four others that were on over-payed contracts.

In a four team deal they traded Jordan Bell and Robert Covington to the Rockets and they sent Keita Bates-Diop, Shabazz Napier, and Noah Vonleh to the Nuggets for Malik Beasley, Jaun Hermangomez and Jarred Vanderbilt. From the Hawks they received Evan Turner who was on an expiring contract and a 2020 1st rd pick.

They traded Andrew Wiggins and a top three protected 2021 1st rd pick for D'Angelo Russell and Omari Spellman.

In a three team deal they sent Gorgui Dieng to the Grizzlies and Treveon Graham and Jeff Teague to the Hawks receiving James Johnson from the Heat and Allen Crabbe, whose on an expiring contract from the Hawks.

As a result, they went from from $132,547,644.00 in guaranteed money to $75,324,395.00 in guaranteed money. A savings of $57,223,249.00.

Almost all the players that they received back were young players and of the three oldest, James Johnson, Allen Crabbe, and Evan Turner, only Johnson has guaranteed money for next season and it's his option. So all in all, not bad moves.

Ok......I guess my worry is if he makes these moves for Sac and acquires picks or young talent, is he capable of identifying said talent? If not then it is a problem.

By all accounts a guy like Booth can identify talent, while a Catanella can do his salary cap magic.

 

[Hoovtrain]

Ok......I guess my worry is if he makes these moves for Sac and acquires picks or young talent, is he capable of identifying said talent? If not then it is a problem.

By all accounts a guy like Booth can identify talent, while a Catanella can do his salary cap magic.

that’s a great point. Having a combo like that is key. You don’t need 1 guy to do it all, but a good synergy amongst a few .

 

[dude12]

that’s a great point. Having a combo like that is key. You don’t need 1 guy to do it all, but a good synergy amongst a few .

I mean, if Gupta is hired, do you need to retain Catanella? Or is Catanella’s skill set different from Gupta? If you hire Gupta, he has to find his Simon or Booth....a guy who is really good at identifying talent.

Go back to the good old days, Petrie was the talent identifier and he got Adelman what Coach needed. Not sure if he was a cap whiz or anything like that but he got us talent.

 

[kb02]

I mean, if Gupta is hired, do you need to retain Catanella? Or is Catanella’s skill set different from Gupta? If you hire Gupta, he has to find his Simon or Booth....a guy who is really good at identifying talent.

Go back to the good old days, Petrie was the talent identifier and he got Adelman what Coach needed. Not sure if he was a cap whiz or anything like that but he got us talent.

There’s some overlap, but Cantenella seems to be more of a bean counter while Gupta seems to be more of a financial strategist. A controller vs. a CFO. A CPA vs. a CFP. Good teams, IMO, benefit from having both.

 

[Shaqfuey]

This isn't even relevant to the larger discussion at hand but in what bizarre dimension is Toronto, the biggest city in Canada, home to the HQs of multi-national corporations, and an NBA team, MLS team, MLB team, and NHL team remotely similar to Sacramento, the fourth biggest metropolitan area in the state of California and until recently known as the biggest producer of rice in America?

The size of market is irrelevant. To solely look at population and industry is myopic. They have all of that and it doesn’t matter from a basketball operations perspective. Toronto doesn’t get free agents. They lose their players to more attractive cities. Thus, they need to wisely evaluate talent, draft well, and trade when opportunity presents itself. It’s exactly what Sacramento needs to do because the top tier free agents won’t even look at us.

Also, I recommend checking your ego and showing humility when replying to a post. You come off as a jerk. I voiced surprise that a team that I found similar in operational philosophy wasn’t represented. That’s not irrelevant. I’m guessing many would agree with me. I don’t care if you do, not do I care for a retort. I just hope you consider it and do better.

 

[PacMan]

I mean, if Gupta is hired, do you need to retain Catanella? Or is Catanella’s skill set different from Gupta? If you hire Gupta, he has to find his Simon or Booth....a guy who is really good at identifying talent.

Go back to the good old days, Petrie was the talent identifier and he got Adelman what Coach needed. Not sure if he was a cap whiz or anything like that but he got us talent.

My dream scenario would be Gupta as the main guy and Petrie would serve as advisor like Jerry West to help with talent identification

 

[KainLear]

My dream scenario would be Gupta as the main guy and Petrie would serve as advisor like Jerry West to help with talent identification

Petrie didn't leave the team on the best terms... in case you weren't aware of that.