The Alarming Stagnation of Ben McLemore

[hrdboild]

I have no answer as to why he's suddenly playing bad defensively. At times he looks like the player from last season. Perhaps his struggles on offense are affecting his defense. It does happen with some players. But by no means am I ready to give up on him. By seasons end he should know what he needs to work on this coming off season, and show up better prepared at training camp.

Losing Darren Collison is a factor too. When Ben plays bad defensively it's usually because he's moving too fast, overreacting, trying to do too much. Having Collison out there calling out switches was benefiting everybody but Ben in particular. In his absence, Ray has very little experience running the team. Andre just got here. That puts more pressure on Ben and at this point in his career, increased pressure has been his achilles heel. Players that succeed right away in the NBA usually don't need a lot of specific direction. You could tell from watching Ben in college that he has a lot of talent, but it's going to take a lot of work to get him to reach his potential. I don't think that's a bad thing though, provided you understand what you're signing up for.

 

[KingMilz]

Low basketball IQ.

Sub-Par Ball Handling.

Inconsistent / Inefficient

Turnover Prone.

I know it's only his 2nd year, but he's just not very good. The only thing he has going for him is his athleticism, youth, and occasionally he can knock down the open three. If you're starting Ben McLemore, you better have 2 or 3 other all-stars in your line-up to compensate. I don't like his game. At all. It's sloppy. It's nervous. Blame it on not having Malone all you want.

Young

Elite athlete

Has a good shooting stroke

Injury Free so far

Not a headcase/hard-worker

Moves well without the ball

Has shown improvement and is only in his 2nd year in the NBA


Seriously Mclemore and Collison are literally the only two players I have no concerns about, I know when healthy they will show up and compete and never be a determent in the locker-room or be negative towards teammates.

 

[Bricklayer]

Young

Elite athlete

Has a good shooting stroke

Injury Free so far

Not a headcase/hard-worker

Moves well without the ball

Has shown improvement and is only in his 2nd year in the NBA


Seriously Mclemore and Collison are literally the only two players I have no concerns about, I know when healthy they will show up and compete and never be a determent in the locker-room or be negative towards teammates.

Oddly your last sentence is the last thing I know about Ben. He doesn't show up and compete half the time.

I 100% know he's not a great competitor who burns to beat you. The question is will he ever become an adequate one. Mentally I think he's too nice. Its not the same thing as saying he's a scrub, but I think he doesn't generate his own confidence or competitiveness. You have to do it for him. As soon as you take the hand out from under the back of his shirt, his inertia takes over and soon he's doing nothing again.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Meh... the stats are solid but there are a LOT of specious inferences being made here. Heck if I had NOT watched every game this season I might just write them off to defenses targeting Ben after he started to become a scoring threat. Bottom line is that when a kid that has his talent level (mixed bag or not) you call him an asset. Now if you want to talk trade then we need to know WHO for and why. Personally I like Ben and expect he will have a fun career to watch. I also think that in a dribble drive offense there are guys who might be a better fit.

 

[The_Jamal]

Tonight's a perfect example. He got the shots and opportunity to succeed and he delivered in a big way with 27 pts on 16 shots. That's not going to happen every night, but the more opportunities you give him, the more likely games like this will happen

 

[Bricklayer]

Tonight's a perfect example. He got the shots and opportunity to succeed and he delivered in a big way with 27 pts on 16 shots. That's not going to happen every night, but the more opportunities you give him, the more likely games like this will happen

He got 16 shots the game before and hit 4 of them.

I don't think anyone, including Ben himself, knows if he's going to show up every night. And that in in fact alarming. Extremely alarming in that there is basically no time this season to figure it out with any degree of assuredness. So you go into the offseason, again talk about winning next year, and again don't actually know if you have a starting level NBA SG to rely on in that endeavor, or a guy who has been costing you games for 2 years. You could draft a rookie and throw him out there next year knowing neither more or less about whether he was going to be a solid every night guy for you. And never in a million years would I support drafting a rookie to start in a year when I was trying to win + make the playoffs.

 

[gunks]

Best case: we get a starting quality SG in free agency, and continue to develop Ben off of the bench.

Kid is way too young to give up on, he's improved, and he has occasional flashes of brilliance, like tonight.

 

[pshn80]

Maybe our careful analysis and insightful criticisms have had some good effect. As long as Ben is with us he can score 27 points anytime he wants.

 

[Boogie-havoc]

I think, and u could see it during the year - Ben is a system guy.

He needs stracture and he needs to know how it's gonna happen, making the game as simple as possible for him.
It comes as no surprise that under Mike Malone where there's clear stracture and plan Ben flourished (same for Omri)

When the Corvin mess started and the 'do whatever u want' nonsense began, Ben regressed to the extreme.

Since coach Karl arrived, you're suddenly starting to see Ben rise again, being more and more consistent, as he gets more familiar.

Atleast at this stage of his life, aslong as you keep Ben's situation stable, it'll pay dividends.

I would bank on Ben having a nice breakout season next year under Karl, proving to be a legitimate starting SG in th league, with 15-17 PPG.
I've never been a Ben guy and blasted him quite a lot, but he really showed me the light this year, although in flashes.

I got faith in Karl to bring the best out of him and put him in a situation to succeed.

 

[Gilles]

The Alarming Stagnation of Omri Casspi
The Alarming Stagnation of DeMarcus Cousins
The Alarming Stagnation of Reggie Evans
The Alarming Stagnation of Rudy Gay
The Alarming Stagnation of Ryan Hollins
The Alarming Stagnation of Carl Landry
The Alarming Stagnation of Ray McCallum
The Alarming Stagnation of Andre Miller (sorry that didn't make sense)
The Alarming Stagnation of Nik Stauskas
The Alarming Stagnation of Jason Thompson
The Alarming Stagnation of Derrick Williams

And this did make sense?

 

[Livinthedream]

Tonight's a perfect example. He got the shots and opportunity to succeed and he delivered in a big way with 27 pts on 16 shots. That's not going to happen every night, but the more opportunities you give him, the more likely games like this will happen

I agree. It's why I've always pointed out that he generally plays better when either Cousins or Gay is out. In this game Cousins wasn't doing well, but they didn't just keep force feeding him like normal. They got the ball to Ben.

I don't see Ben so much as a system guy, but more of a "touches" guy. The more you involve and ask him to do, the better he gets. That's why I resist the 3&D label. He's not as effective just hanging around waiting for when someone occasionally kicks it out to him. Sure he'll make mistakes and some bone headed decisions when he gets the ball more, but that's an experience issue. Not an intelligence or ability issue.

Not sure why so many of us are demanding perfection out of a 22 y.o. player whose being asked to learn to do so many different things and styles on the fly. There has been no consistency or perfection out of anyone in this organization all year. No need to single out one player. Especially the player who is actively trying to do what's asked of him even if it takes him out of his comfort zone.

 

[jdbraver]

If Ben makes a similar leap from his 2nd to 3rd year as he did from 1st to 2nd he will be more than fine. I am not worried one bit that he can find a way to be consistent. He works hard, has all the physical elements, and just needs to develop pace. It's not like its year 5 for him. and yes I believe we can make the playoffs next year w Ben starting at the 2.

 

[lawlman91]

And this did make sense?

That's debatable, but I see where you're coming from

 

[Albatros]

well, that was this months good game out of the way!

(yeah, I hope that's a jinx too.)

 

[The_Jamal]

He got 16 shots the game before and hit 4 of them.

I don't think anyone, including Ben himself, knows if he's going to show up every night. And that in in fact alarming. Extremely alarming in that there is basically no time this season to figure it out with any degree of assuredness. So you go into the offseason, again talk about winning next year, and again don't actually know if you have a starting level NBA SG to rely on in that endeavor, or a guy who has been costing you games for 2 years. You could draft a rookie and throw him out there next year knowing neither more or less about whether he was going to be a solid every night guy for you. And never in a million years would I support drafting a rookie to start in a year when I was trying to win + make the playoffs.

And the game before he shot 16, hit 7 of them and scored 20 points with 4 assists and 4 rebounds.

The point is to start involving him in the offense and seeing what he can with the increased reliance on his game. Especially when a lot of the shots he gets are good looks because of the attention Rudy and Cuz draw.

 

[Bricklayer]

I agree. It's why I've always pointed out that he generally plays better when either Cousins or Gay is out. In this game Cousins wasn't doing well, but they didn't just keep force feeding him like normal. They got the ball to Ben.

I don't see Ben so much as a system guy, but more of a "touches" guy. The more you involve and ask him to do, the better he gets. That's why I resist the 3&D label. He's not as effective just hanging around waiting for when someone occasionally kicks it out to him. Sure he'll make mistakes and some bone headed decisions when he gets the ball more, but that's an experience issue. Not an intelligence or ability issue.

Not sure why so many of us are demanding perfection out of a 22 y.o. player whose being asked to learn to do so many different things and styles on the fly. There has been no consistency or perfection out of anyone in this organization all year. No need to single out one player. Especially the player who is actively trying to do what's asked of him even if it takes him out of his comfort zone.

Perfection no, progress yes.

Here is the thing: in 1 months time Ben's career as a Kings starter could come to an end. Or it might not. And after 2 years we still have insufficient evidence which way that is going to go. If Ben plays the way he has for the past 3 months, there is simply no way you could have him come into camp next year as your starter. Not if you were planning on making the playoffs. In the West a sub 10 PER SG playing on and off defense could singlehandedly sink your chances, especially when because of roster construction he has to be your primary spacer for your stars.

It was alarming when he started the season flat, but then back in November we got adequate progress. He was no star, but in the shadow of stars he was filling the role we needed on most nights, and was the #4 guy in that starting lineup that was so effective. So we were doing ok. Was he the best SG in the league, conference, even division? No. But he was one filling the things we needed filled, he was part of the winning. If the season had ended then you could have safely said, ok, we can start him next year and have a chance. But after 3 more months of renewed struggles now you no longer have an upward career arc to look at. Now you instead have an increasingly isolated spike amongst a sea of poor play. A single good month and a half, attached to a now departed coach. And now you don't know. And yet with only 1 more month of evidence you have to make a major decision that could dramatically effect not only next year, but the years to come.

Here are Ben's monthly shooting percentages for his entire career:

2013-14
Oct: .143
Nov: .393
Dec: .376
Jan: .351
Feb: .301
Mar: .427
Apr: .393

2014-15
Oct: .200
Nov: .493
Dec: .483
Jan: .382
Feb: .409
Mar: .400
Apr: ???

And so right now we are being asked to base our entire evaluation on 6 weeks of good play out of about 12 months of basketball. And all this while our franchise player in his prime and time is wasting. If Ben sprained an ankle tomorrow and missed the rest of the season, what would we really know? how could we possibly say ok, you're the starter again next season?

 

[Jerichoholic]

Perfection no, progress yes.

Here is the thing: in 1 months time Ben's career as a Kings starter could come to an end. Or it might not. And after 2 years we still have insufficient evidence which way that is going to go. If Ben plays the way he has for the past 3 months, there is simply no way you could have him come into camp next year as your starter. Not if you were planning on making the playoffs. In the West a sub 10 PER SG playing on and off defense could singlehandedly sink your chances, especially when because of roster construction he has to be your primary spacer for your stars.

It was alarming when he started the season flat, but then back in November we got adequate progress. He was no star, but in the shadow of stars he was filling the role we needed on most nights, and was the #4 guy in that starting lineup that was so effective. So we were doing ok. Was he the best SG in the league, conference, even division? No. But he was one filling the things we needed filled, he was part of the winning. If the season had ended then you could have safely said, ok, we can start him next year and have a chance. But after 3 more months of renewed struggles now you no longer have an upward career arc to look at. Now you instead have an increasingly isolated spike amongst a sea of poor play. A single good month and a half, attached to a now departed coach. And now you don't know. And yet with only 1 more month of evidence you have to make a major decision that could dramatically effect not only next year, but the years to come.

Here are Ben's monthly shooting percentages for his entire career:

2013-14
Oct: .143
Nov: .393
Dec: .376
Jan: .351
Feb: .301
Mar: .427
Apr: .393

2014-15
Oct: .200
Nov: .493
Dec: .483
Jan: .382
Feb: .409
Mar: .400
Apr: ???

And so right now we are being asked to base our entire evaluation on 6 weeks of good play out of about 12 months of basketball. And all this while our franchise player in his prime and time is wasting. If Ben sprained an ankle tomorrow and missed the rest of the season, what would we really know? how could we possibly say ok, you're the starter again next season?

That's just the thing, what do these monthly percentages really show us? I think the majority thinking around here is that McLemore is inconsistent, game to game that is probably true, in fact after his 27 point outing yesterday I would expect something around 8 points on 2 of 12 shooting tomorrow. However that's not what these percentages show, they show that he is simply not a good shooter. Outside of two months he is not a good shooter, you can call those two months an anomaly. Now can he become a good shooter? Perhaps, but how much time do you give him?

I think the biggest problem with him right now is that when he doesn't come to play, he doesn't come to play at all. He needs to learn how to contribute something when his shots aren't falling. Play better defense, grab some tough rebounds, perhaps try to create for others on penetration, etc. He is either on or off and when he's off he completely disappears. You get all or nothing, when the offense goes so does the defense. He was like this in college, in summer league, last year, and now this year. I like the potential, I think everyone does, but how much time do you give him to realize it? Even if he does realize it, will he ever be consistent? Will he learn to provide little things when the big things aren't there? He is young, but I'm not sure you learn that high level competitiveness if you don't already have some of it.

 

[Livinthedream]

Perfection no, progress yes.

Here is the thing: in 1 months time Ben's career as a Kings starter could come to an end. Or it might not. And after 2 years we still have insufficient evidence which way that is going to go. If Ben plays the way he has for the past 3 months, there is simply no way you could have him come into camp next year as your starter. Not if you were planning on making the playoffs. In the West a sub 10 PER SG playing on and off defense could singlehandedly sink your chances, especially when because of roster construction he has to be your primary spacer for your stars.

It was alarming when he started the season flat, but then back in November we got adequate progress. He was no star, but in the shadow of stars he was filling the role we needed on most nights, and was the #4 guy in that starting lineup that was so effective. So we were doing ok. Was he the best SG in the league, conference, even division? No. But he was one having the things we needed filled, he was part of the winning. If the season had ended then you could have safely said, ok, we can start him next year and have a chance. But after 3 more months of renewed struggles now you no longer have an upward career arc to look at. Now you instead have an increasingly isolated spike amongst a sea of poor play. A single good month and a half, attached to a now departed coach. And now you don't know. And yet with only 1 more month of evidence you have to make a major decision that could dramatically effect not only next year, but the years to come.

Here are Ben's monthly shooting percentages for his entire career:

2013-14
Oct: .143
Nov: .393
Dec: .376
Jan: .351
Feb: .301
Mar: .427
Apr: .393

2014-15
Oct: .200
Nov: .493
Dec: .483
Jan: .382
Feb: .409
Mar: .400
Apr: ???

And so right now we are being asked to base our entire evaluation on 6 weeks of good play out of about 12 months of basketball. And all this while our franchise player in his prime and time is wasting. If Ben sprained an ankle tomorrow and missed the rest of the season, what would we really know? how could we possibly say ok, you're the starter again next season?

What those monthly percentages show me is that he's having a better shooting year this year. What watching the games show me is that he's a better passer, dribbler and defender than he was last year. That's progress.

He may not be progressing as fast as you like. That's fine. We all want what we want. But the fact is he is improving and all 3 of his coaches this year continue giving him the bulk of the minutes at SG. He also plays in crunch time. If you watch last nights game, with :52 (if I remember the time correctly) in the 4th, they tried to run a play for Ben. Is coach Karl crazy, or does he maybe see something in the kid you refuse to acknowledge.

 

[Bricklayer]

What those monthly percentages show me is that he's having a better shooting year this year. What watching the games show me is that he's a better passer, dribbler and defender than he was last year. That's progress.

He may not be progressing as fast as you like. That's fine. We all want what we want. But the fact is he is improving and all 3 of his coaches this year continue giving him the bulk of the minutes at SG. He also plays in crunch time. If you watch last nights game, with :52 (if I remember the time correctly) in the 4th, they tried to run a play for Ben. Is coach Karl crazy, or does he maybe see something in the kid you refuse to acknowledge.

You're point about him continuing to get minutes is ridiculous to the point that I know you don't even believe it.

The front office has given him those minutes, nobody else. There has been pressure to play him, and few if any options provided. Last year it was a miserable Thornton, and they traded him and didn't even replace him except by 10 contracts. This year it has been Stauskas, and out of pure desperation Casspi. Its a completely ridiculous point.

How many minutes would he be averaging in Portland before Matthews went down? or even now with Afflalo. In Golden State with Thompson? In Clipperland and with Reddick and Crawford? In Phoenix with Bledsoe and Knight now, or Bledsoe/IT/Dragic most of the year? In Denver while Afflalo was there. in Utah before they lost Burks (possible platoon?). In Dallas, or Houston, or San Antonio, or New Orleans (at least while their guards are healthy). Even L.A. before Kobe went down or Minny while KMart and Wiggins were both available. His minutes have been 100% the result of our roster. Outisde of a handful of other lottery rosters and several injury situations that have opened up, no. Its not valid reasoning. being the best/only thing we have =/= being good, certainly =/= being reliable enough to be a WC playoff team's starter.

 

[bajaden]

You're point about him continuing to get minutes is ridiculous to the point that I know you don't even believe it.

The front office has given him those minutes, nobody else. There has been pressure to play him, and few if any options provided. Last year it was a miserable Thornton, and they traded him and didn't even replace him except by 10 contracts. This year it has been Stauskas, and out of pure desperation Casspi. Its a completely ridiculous point.

How many minutes would he be averaging in Portland before Matthews went down? or even now with Afflalo. In Golden State with Thompson? In Clipperland and with Reddick and Crawford? In Phoenix with Bledsoe and Knight now, or Bledsoe/IT/Dragic most of the year? In Denver while Afflalo was there. in Utah before they lost Burks (possible platoon?). In Dallas, or Houston, or San Antonio, or New Orleans (at least while their guards are healthy). Even L.A. before Kobe went down or Minny while KMart and Wiggins were both available. His minutes have been 100% the result of our roster. Outisde of a handful of other lottery rosters and several injury situations that have opened up, no. Its not valid reasoning. being the best/only thing we have =/= being good, certainly =/= being reliable enough to be a WC playoff team's starter.

You make good points about McLemore's minutes. On another team, he'd probably still be fighting to get on the floor. Maybe that's what the Kings originally planned. To have McLemore backup Thornton with Thornton getting the bulk of the minutes. But when Thornton went in the tank, they said, what the hell, were not going anywhere anyway, why not give him a lot of minutes and see what we have at the end of the year. Who knows? What I do know, was that he was raw coming out of Kansas. He was an extremely athletic player, with picture perfect form on his jumpshot. His handles were passable and that's about it. He came to the game late, so his BBIQ was behind the curve. From the perspective of where he was, and where he is now, he's made considerable progress. But that alone doesn't make him a starting SG in the NBA. He's still learning the game.

I certainly wouldn't get rid of him. Unless of course someone made me an offer I couldn't refuse. I'd trade you if the right deal came along, as emotionally tough as that would be. I still think Ben is going to be a good player. By all accounts he's a hard worker, and if you put in the time, you get better. How much better? I'll leave that guess to you. Ideally, he would be playing behind a solid veteran. But he's not, and unless they trade for one, we'll just have to suffer through his growing pains. Hopefully they will become fewer and fewer.

 

[SCKingsfan]

Ben's ceiling is being an important if not essential contributor to a high level playoff team. We need to be patient. His handles have gotten a lot better, he getting more aggressive in a more selective and productive way. He's inconsistent, but I feel a whole lot better about his future than I did last year. He's 22 yrs old. Dude can barely drink legally. I'm not sure he makes a bad team better, but I expect he will make a good team better as his game develops more. Whether that is Sacramento, I don't know; depends on how long until we get good and whether we keep him around or find a better fit.

 

[Livinthedream]

Afflalo: min. 32.5, fg% 42.1, 3pt% 33, reb 3, asst 1.9, stl 0.6, pts 13.9, +/- -1.1

Mclemore: min 33, fg% 43.5, 3pt % 35.9, reb 2.9, asst 1.5, stl 0.8, pts 12.2, +/- 0.1

The stagnation of Afflalo

 

[randymoss1881]

Afflalo: min. 32.5, fg% 42.1, 3pt% 33, reb 3, asst 1.9, stl 0.6, pts 13.9, +/- -1.1

Mclemore: min 33, fg% 43.5, 3pt % 35.9, reb 2.9, asst 1.5, stl 0.8, pts 12.2, +/- 0.1

The stagnation of Afflalo

People haven't watched him play trust me they will be bitching about him if we sign him. Dude plays 0 defense.

 

[Gilles]

People haven't watched him play trust me they will be bitching about him if we sign him. Dude plays 0 defense.

It's not just little D part, Afflalo wants to dribble, get a lot of touches, maybe not hoist a lot shots, but he wants to be a big part of offensive scheme.

 

[Livinthedream]

It's not just little D part, Afflalo wants to dribble, get a lot of touches, maybe not hoist a lot shots, but he wants to be a big part of offensive scheme.

Also, Afflalo is in his "prime." That's as good as it gets for him. Ben hasn't even scratched the surface of who he's going to be.

 

[Bricklayer]

It's not just little D part, Afflalo wants to dribble, get a lot of touches, maybe not hoist a lot shots, but he wants to be a big part of offensive scheme.

The thing with Afflalo is that that's all relatively recent. He has been bad this year. And indeed, nearly Ben bad. But he had an effective 4-5yr run, and started off under Karl as a defensive minded SG. If you went chasing him that would be the obvious hope, that a return to Karl meant a return of Afflalo's younger game.

All of which has precious little to do with Ben's lack of progress BTW.

 

[Gilles]

Actually AA started getting bigger offensive role, since he came to Orlando, and that's 3 years ago. After 'Dipo at PG experiment failed Magic asked Afflalo last summer, if he'd be willing to come off the bench, he refused and got a ticket back to Colorado. It might have been start/bench thing, but I wouldn't bet on him willing to be 4th wheel. Anyway with Matthews injured and uncertainty of recovery from achilles tear Afflalo is untouchable for now, unless he flops massively in POs.
As for Ben he had some sort of success twice in his career and both were in a very structured offense: college season in Kansas and 6 weeks of Mike Malone. Put him in a free flowing "read-and-react" situation, and he will react with a lot of mistakes. Nik OTOH excels within such a structure. Unless there's a distinct improvement in consistency for the rest of the season or Karl's current implementation of offense is just exploratory to get a grip on players' ability, BMac probably shouldn't be relied on for next season.

 

[Livinthedream]

Actually AA started getting bigger offensive role, since he came to Orlando, and that's 3 years ago. After 'Dipo at PG experiment failed Magic asked Afflalo last summer, if he'd be willing to come off the bench, he refused and got a ticket back to Colorado. It might have been start/bench thing, but I wouldn't bet on him willing to be 4th wheel. Anyway with Matthews injured and uncertainty of recovery from achilles tear Afflalo is untouchable for now, unless he flops massively in POs.
As for Ben he had some sort of success twice in his career and both were in a very structured offense: college season in Kansas and 6 weeks of Mike Malone. Put him in a free flowing "read-and-react" situation, and he will react with a lot of mistakes. Nik OTOH excels within such a structure. Unless there's a distinct improvement in consistency for the rest of the season or Karl's current implementation of offense is just exploratory to get a grip on players' ability, BMac probably shouldn't be relied on for next season.

I'm not sure what you're telling me about Arron Afflalo, except he wasn't right to start for Orlando in their opinion and he was unhappy.

As far as offenses go, they are all structured. Every offense has a read and react aspect to it. The difference with Kansas was stability in one system for a year. The difference with Malone was one system for a year. Beyond that, you can't tell how Ben will be in this offense, until there is time in the system. Even Vance Walberg said that he needs at least a year to implement his system, let alone have someone master it. As far as Nik goes, let's wait until a coach actually thinks he's good enough to get minutes, before we say he's great at anything.

 

[kupman]

I truly hope that I am wrong about this, but right now about 70% of voters are picking options #1-3, and I think that is just wishful thinking.

 

[Mike]

In an ideal world McLemore becomes a 20 ppg borderline all star to all star calibre player. He's still young and in his second season. He's playing on a team that is on its third head coach in two seasons, and that will have played a role on his development to date. Hopefully our new head coach is going to be here for a long spell, like he was at Denver, and if that is the case, then that should aid McLemore's development.

That said, if someone said to me what type of player do I see McLemore developing into based on what I've seen over his first two seasons, I would say that I see him more as a Gerald Henderson calibre player, than I do a borderline all star to all star calibre player. But like I said, it's two seasons in, and under Karl perhaps he can hit that high ceiling.