Yes, because if we moved Steve Nash and Chris Paul off the ball they would continue giving you 11 assists a game. Roles and how you use a player do make a difference. I'm sorry to say this but you're just plain silly if you believe that you can move a guy away from his strengths and what got him into the NBA and expect him to continue producing at a high level in such a short span of time. Tyreke's had the ball in his hands his whole basketball life, and you expect him to produce at the same level when only playing 50ish games off the ball? Sometimes it takes guys a couple of years before they become all-stars you know...
Terrible Players, Or Terrible Use of our Players?
- Thread starter rainmaker
- Start date
Yes, because if we moved Steve Nash and Chris Paul off the ball they would continue giving you 11 assists a game. Roles and how you use a player do make a difference. I'm sorry to say this but you're just plain silly if you believe that you can move a guy away from his strengths and what got him into the NBA and expect him to continue producing at a high level in such a short span of time. Tyreke's had the ball in his hands his whole basketball life, and you expect him to produce at the same level when only playing 50ish games off the ball? Sometimes it takes guys a couple of years before they become all-stars you know...
Here's what I wonder - who on the team really has a big ego? I'd say Cousins and MT. Tyreke isn't much of an ego guy. Second question - why do we have so many one on one players? Wasn't this what Grant and Jerry were praising at the start of last season? That we have many guys that can create their own shots and handle the ball? Isn't this why they love John Salmons - saying that we can't expect him to be effective just spotting up in the corner and shooting 3s? Also, if you're telling me that a coach in 70+ games and a full offseason hasn't managed to get some of these 1 on 1 players playing team basketball then I'd suggest that the coach is not a very competent one.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
while this is absolutely true, we are also now stuck with a god awful coach thanks to that Front Office u mentioned. the maloofs are going anywhere (unless the team goes with them) so we might as well fix what we can, the crappy coach, and GM.
i am currently watching OKC vs. Brooklyn on NBATV and wondering what life would be like if we would have made Scott Brooks our coach when we had him here as a assistant....... sigh. i hate being a Kings fan
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HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
WOWWWW what a ****ing idiot!!!!!!!!!
ya that worked out really well when Tyreke was out these last 2 games. also when Cousins was out. god i hate Smart more and more every day
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
That is pure lunacy. There's a reason bench players are bench players and starters are starters. Even the leagues better 6th men don't offer the same as the starters in front of them, so the idea the team doesn't miss a beat is asinine. Kevin is a better scorer than Sefalosha, but Sefalosha is the far better defender. Yes Kevin would help spread the floor if he were to start and offer another scoring option, but OKC would also lose the defense Sefalosha provides.
It's roles. Players fill roles. Sefalosha fills the defense role player role. Kevin fills the scoring punch off the bench. you can't just swap one for the other, two different players with two different roles and expect the team not to miss a beat.
You know what else a comment like that is? Insulting. Insulting to the starters. They'd never admit to it in a team atmosphere, but implying the team wouldn't miss a beat when you as a starter are injured is insulting, and implies you're not starting because you're the better player and offer more.
And if we didn't miss a beat with Reke out, then why did Smart appear to use Reke being out as an excuse, as well as using Cuz being out as an excuse when he was suspended?
This coach is so concerned with being everyones best friend he's lost his ability, if he ever had it, to actually coach and lead a group of young men. The top coaches, whether it's Riley, PJax, Thibs, Rivers, Pop, Adelman, etc, couldn't have cared less about being everyone's best friend. Does anyone remember Rick making Wallace feel he was anything aside from our 11-12 man? Did he tell Vlade we wouldn't miss a beat if he was injured and we started Pollard in his place?
I'm fearful of what is actually said in the locker room by Smart. I mean, he says this crap publicly, just imagine what he says when the media isn't there.
KingsCitizen
Starter
I think only the Spurs can say this in the whole league. Just look how they almost defeated the heat without their starters. But that team has been together for maybe a decade. Smart is a Popovich fan. I think he dreams of that. But he should know what is a dream and what's reality.
Reality here is that this team is still learning his system and system is nowhere near Pop's system. We have 4 lottery players in this team and if he plays a system around them most likely these kids will excel.
DMC was near unstoppable last year when most our plays favor him. Reke had successive Rookie form games this year when our plays favored his initiating skills. TRob have a solid midrange and should be a nice rim finisher. Jimmer can shoot and has been getting better control. MT is such a quick release guy for any pick and rolls.
Problem that I see here, is that Smart doesn't seem to know how make these players effective in an alternating manner throughout the game. On most games, we only have one player at high level and the rest is MEH!
Nah, I think what Smart really means is that this team doesn't have a beat to miss, because he's such a bad coach. He'd use James Johnson the same way he uses Evans, Hayes the same way as Cousins. Doesn't matter whether bench players are playing or starters, we're still going to lose because the team has no offensive or defensive direction.
There's no such thing as a team not missing a beat. If that were so the Spurs would just trade Parker/Ginobili for more draft picks so they can stay successful for a longer time. Charles Barkley summed it up pretty well: at the end of the day, the difference between the real stars and other players is that they create plays and take over games. Lebron did it for the Heat in that game.
According to Smart however, there are no stars on our team, nobody that we can give the ball to on a nightly basis and expect results. The ridiculous thing is that in such a scenario you would expect even more offensive sets drawn up in order to create good looks, but you don't see that happening. Smart is frankly ... not very smart at all.
Gary
All-Star
I am in that all important 3rd group.. the team is talented and looks like a good team on paper, but it will never work so we need to rid ourselves of our core and keep the role players.
People are still wanting to build around Evans and Cousins, but those two players are not working together. It's a flawed core, and they will not work together. Evans gets a lot of points and the other players games suffer. the other players stats are up then Evans suffers. There is no balance there. The problem with Evans is that he cannot play off the ball and he cannot pass well. It's sucks to have a guard who cant shoot, but the fact that he's ball dominant and cannot see the floor very well really hurts the rest of the players. It does not really hurt Evans because he still gets his good shots.
The problem with Cousins is that he whines too much and screws with the morale of the rest of the team while dogging it out on the floor.
If we rid ourselves of the core and try to grab players that know how to play with a decent staff of roleplayers then we might have our self a team..
I would be willing to go out on a limb and say the team wouldn't be any worse than they are now if we didn't have Cousins and Evans on the team anymore. I think we should look at what deals come for the both of them and try to grab ourselves a couple position players.
People are still wanting to build around Evans and Cousins, but those two players are not working together. It's a flawed core, and they will not work together. Evans gets a lot of points and the other players games suffer. the other players stats are up then Evans suffers. There is no balance there. The problem with Evans is that he cannot play off the ball and he cannot pass well. It's sucks to have a guard who cant shoot, but the fact that he's ball dominant and cannot see the floor very well really hurts the rest of the players. It does not really hurt Evans because he still gets his good shots.
The problem with Cousins is that he whines too much and screws with the morale of the rest of the team while dogging it out on the floor.
If we rid ourselves of the core and try to grab players that know how to play with a decent staff of roleplayers then we might have our self a team..
I would be willing to go out on a limb and say the team wouldn't be any worse than they are now if we didn't have Cousins and Evans on the team anymore. I think we should look at what deals come for the both of them and try to grab ourselves a couple position players.
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rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Not really. Twas one game.
Why did Pop rest his key four guys? So he's making sure they're healthy come the playoffs, as he knows without Parker/Manu/Tim/Green they're considerably worse and he needs them when it counts. He simply sacrificed a game.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Code for nice neat players that fit nicely in that Basketball 1001 book you like to analyze from?
Also code for: we'll have no talnet and can be terrible forever. Whatever hope we have for ever getting out of this relies in those two unique talents. Unique talents = GOOD thing. Now if you can swap them for other unique talents, then its possible. But we have badly degraded their value and so no we can't. All we can do is swap them for relative mediocrities, "position players" without the talent to exceed their positions and so without the talent to ever be difference makers. All we will be doing is absolutely guaranteeing the impossibility of us ever being good and we'll have to start all over drafting the talent to replace the nobodies. That's not how its done unless you are advocating for Sacramento to give up and admit its just going to be a farm team from now on content to try to win 35 every year so just enough fans will come out.
Padrino
All-Star
indeed. many kings fans truly baffle me. it's as if they don't remember how bad things can truly get. i'm baffled further by the fact that fans of a team with this particular history seem so desperately in need of perspective regarding what a culture of losing really looks like...
ParniValjak
All-Star
BINGO!!!!!!
A high quality post! Could not agree more. Players are like they are for a reason. Cousins is a bee's proverbial from going Sprewell or worst, Artest on someone.
This is a big boys league and if you cannot be a big boys owner, find something else to do. Bottom line is, you get what you pay for and we are shopping at the op shop and picking from a pile of on sale items.
There is a reson why someone like Adelman sets you back about $6 million per season and Smart only $1.5 million. There is also a reason why James Johnson cost you around $2 million and Geral Wallace $10 million.
The core of our problems is owners' pockets. With deep pockets you caget the arena done, you can beef up the front office, you can pay for a good coach and you can pay for players. We cannot do any of this! We are trying to be creative. We are trying to be too smart but are outsmarting ourselves. Bargains are extremely rare, especially in the NBA!
Gary
All-Star
The problem with "unique" talent in my Basketball book (It's actually Basketball 104) is that it tends to be difficuly to match up players that work with "unique" talents. Nothing we have done with Evans as of yet works, and being that we have more talent than many other teams that are much better then us poses a problem in my basketball book. Yes, coaching sucks, yes, our GM sucks, and yes, for the last 3+ years now we have been talking about trying to get players that work with Evans.
How many more years are you willing to keep trying different players, and how long will you keep blaming it on the coaches or the other players as the reason why it's not working (in regards to the pairing with Reke)?
Our record with Evans being our "main go-to player" is abysmal. He's a primary ball handler that doesn't see the floor well. That does not bode well for the rest of the team.
Padrino
All-Star
question: how much have the kings really "done with evans" these last three seasons? as you've pointed out, he's a primary ball handler. so what did management accomplish at the guard positions after drafting tyreke evans? well, they brought in ball-dominant guards like marcus thornton, jimmer fredette, john salmons, and aaron brooks. and they traded beno udrih, the kind of undemanding guard who can effectively coexist in an offense next to 'reke. not exactly a recipe for success, is it? not exactly the way to maximize the talent of a player like evans, either. that's on management...
now, as for coaching, one need only have a quick look-see at the malaise of the current lakers squad to be granted some perspective. they brought in a head coach who likes to push the tempo and who rarely gives defense a second thought. but his is an old, slow, and creaky roster with little bench support that must succeed on defense to bolster it's offensive successes. as a result, a team featuring kobe bryant, dwight howard, and pau gasol is currently 8-10 and outside of the playoff picture in a brutally tough western conference. the fact that the lakers are so desperate for 39-year-old steve nash to regain his health is a sign that things aren't working over there. now, i fully expect their record to improve enough this season to get themselves into the playoffs, but lakers ownership/management did not set themselves up to succeed by mismatching the parts of their roster, and bringing in a coach who can't glue the pieces together, except when he's relying on an over-the-hill point guard, former mvp though nash may be...
something similar could be said of the kings. they are mismanaged and mis-coached. they need frontcourt defensive help, but every season the team brings in more guards, or guards masquerading as small forwards, instead of shoring up their actual weaknesses. and they consistently hire coaches who are incapable of maximizing the talent on their roster. in an ever-expanding league with deep-seeded parity issues and talent distribution equal to a teaspoon of butter scraped over far too much bread, you always ride your young, all-star potential talent into oblivion just to give yourself a shot at developing into a playoff team, especially if you're in a small, fledgling market like sacramento... unless you're given the opportunity to do as danny ainge did a few years back, and sell all of your young talent high to bring in the kind of all-star, veteran talent that immediately puts you in the playoff picture (but the fact that the aging celtics team of recent vintage found their success in a tremendously weak eastern conference should not go unnoticed). do you think geoff petrie, a notorious conservative, has that kind of nerve, that kind of influence in the nba today? my guess is most gm's would laugh him straight off the phone...
Gary
All-Star
The differece is that we know the Lakers have won with Kobe, and we know that Kobe knows how to see the floor well. He's a very smart player. As for whether Nash and Howard work out it's anyones guess. How long do you think the Lakers would give it before they just cut their losses and break the core of Howard/Nash/Kobe up? (keeping Kobe on the Lakers of course)
We don't have any clue what we have with Evans. Things we do know up to this point though is that the team has never been close to the playoffs, and that every guard combination we have tried have not worked. Putting Evans off the ball at SF/SG didn't work and when Evans was at PG it didn't work either. I don't think it's a matter of getting the "right player" to play well with him. Who even knows if that player exists.
Also, normally when you have a special kind of player like Reke is supposed to be things should be getting better, or at least Reke shoudl be consistent. We aren't getting better and Evans is not consistent.
Personally, I think 3+ years is enough and I would like to move on. I know people like Evans, but I just don't think we can ever find that player that can co-exist with Evans.
We don't have any clue what we have with Evans. Things we do know up to this point though is that the team has never been close to the playoffs, and that every guard combination we have tried have not worked. Putting Evans off the ball at SF/SG didn't work and when Evans was at PG it didn't work either. I don't think it's a matter of getting the "right player" to play well with him. Who even knows if that player exists.
Also, normally when you have a special kind of player like Reke is supposed to be things should be getting better, or at least Reke shoudl be consistent. We aren't getting better and Evans is not consistent.
Personally, I think 3+ years is enough and I would like to move on. I know people like Evans, but I just don't think we can ever find that player that can co-exist with Evans.
#1 Problem is the Maloof's. They magnify the horrendous state of the team exponentially. They are the head of this franchise and they are an embarassment to all Kings fans.
#2 Problem is Demarcus Cousins. He is a me-first crybaby that has a very cancerous affect on the other players. Its obvious that no one on the roster can stand up to him, including Smart or Petrie. All the talent in the world but the guy is an a-hole. If we could get 80 cents on the dollar talent wise, I would send him packing in a heartbeat. As a fan I can barely stand to watch him as our "lead" player, the face of our franchise on the floor. He needs to get checked in the worst possible way, like a Charles Oakley style beatdown. Too bad Chuck Hayes can't take care of him.
Magoof's + Demarcus = Worst Case Senario for Kings Fans
#2 Problem is Demarcus Cousins. He is a me-first crybaby that has a very cancerous affect on the other players. Its obvious that no one on the roster can stand up to him, including Smart or Petrie. All the talent in the world but the guy is an a-hole. If we could get 80 cents on the dollar talent wise, I would send him packing in a heartbeat. As a fan I can barely stand to watch him as our "lead" player, the face of our franchise on the floor. He needs to get checked in the worst possible way, like a Charles Oakley style beatdown. Too bad Chuck Hayes can't take care of him.
Magoof's + Demarcus = Worst Case Senario for Kings Fans
Padrino
All-Star
you're certainly entitled to your opinion, as tragically short-sighted as it is. but i disagree mightily: we know exactly what we have with evans: play him on ball, and he's 20/5/5 on any given night. if his jump shot (or, at the very least his confidence in his jump shot) is truly improving, then you're looking at a potential all-star. his court vision has always been much better than you've ever given him credit for, and there are certainly players that exist you can pair him with. he had success with beno udrih starting alongside him, and there are dozens of players like that in the nba. when he isn't being sabotaged by his own coaching staff, he does his job well, he doesn't complain, and he's the best individual defender on his team by a mile (a fact that really should not be overlooked as often as it is when assessing evans' overall talent)...
edit: and people talk about how "things should be getting better" as if nba players exist in a vacuum where factors outside of themselves don't contribute to their successes and failures. i give you exhibit a: j.j. hickson. he played very well for a lengthy stretch of games in cleveland before being traded to the kings, where he performed horribly, counter to expectation. so we cut him loose, and now he's playing in portland, to the tune of nearly 11 pts per game on 52% shooting, to go with 9.6 rebs per game in only 28.5 minutes per game. he's had great success on either side of his time in sacramento, and that should very loudly and very clearly tell you something: maybe the problem isn't that these very young talents that sacramento brings in are all as undisciplined and disappointing as they seem, but maybe the problem is instead that the kings franchise has done very little to help equip them with the tools necessary to discipline their individual games, to grow them as a team, to develop their chemistry, etc., etc., etc.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Simple Changes #1 (of 3 -- taking three different takes to illustrate my point)
No huge pie in the sky scenarios, but just let me readjust one summer, a single summer, and make the moves during it that many people wanted us to make, and then hire a real coach, a proven coach, and watch what happens:
Summer of 2011, Chnages
Change #1: don't trade Beno
Change #2: resign Dalembert rather than sign Hayes
Change #3: draft Kawhi Leonard rather than Jimmer
k? So right there, just things that many MANY people on this board, a freakin' messageboard, were arguing for. Not pie in the sky. Not impossible. Just simply not being stupid. All of them entirely possible (in fact only Daly was even moderately out of our control), so we're not talking fantasy here. These are the CHOICES that were not made. Now watch what happens.
Yr 1:
C- Dalembert
PF- Cousins
PF/C- Thompson
PF/C- Hickson
SF- Leonard
SF/PF- Donte
SF/SG- Cisco
SG- Thornton
PG- Evans
PG-Beno
PG-IT (we still had the 60th pick)
Now imagine this: Head Coach: Nate McMillan.
K?
So let's go ahead and again stay close to the plot the way it worked out. Summer of 2012. Hickson leaves looking for money/minutes, so he's still gone. not magically making him stay. Now we were better, so we wouldn't be drafting #5, so let's go ahead and push us back in the lottey, and again just stick close and say we ened up taking John Henson later in the lottery, since we did have an interest there. We still elt Donte go for failure to develop. And so we still pick up JJ from Toronto for a 2nd round pick. I don't think we sign Brooks, but you add him there if you want. In any casew, this season we are sitting on:
Bigs: Dalembert, Cousins, Thompson, Henson
Small forwards: Leonard, Johnson, Cisco
Guards: Reke, Thornton, Beno, IT, possibly Brooks
Coach: McMillan
and the crew has largely been together for 2 years. 2 shotblockers. 2 defenders at SF. Deep pretty good sized backcourt. I am not saying we play for the title this year, but that to me is CLEARLY far better than what we have right now, not least because we have a real coach who has proven he can win. So don't tell me that oh, these core guys are so terrible that we just can't win with them. That how many years do we have to try. That's B.S. We haven't tried. We have screwed the pooch. If the core guys look terrible at least a large chunk of that iis because WE have flat been absolutely terrible at building around them. Its chaos.
No huge pie in the sky scenarios, but just let me readjust one summer, a single summer, and make the moves during it that many people wanted us to make, and then hire a real coach, a proven coach, and watch what happens:
Summer of 2011, Chnages
Change #1: don't trade Beno
Change #2: resign Dalembert rather than sign Hayes
Change #3: draft Kawhi Leonard rather than Jimmer
k? So right there, just things that many MANY people on this board, a freakin' messageboard, were arguing for. Not pie in the sky. Not impossible. Just simply not being stupid. All of them entirely possible (in fact only Daly was even moderately out of our control), so we're not talking fantasy here. These are the CHOICES that were not made. Now watch what happens.
Yr 1:
C- Dalembert
PF- Cousins
PF/C- Thompson
PF/C- Hickson
SF- Leonard
SF/PF- Donte
SF/SG- Cisco
SG- Thornton
PG- Evans
PG-Beno
PG-IT (we still had the 60th pick)
Now imagine this: Head Coach: Nate McMillan.
K?
So let's go ahead and again stay close to the plot the way it worked out. Summer of 2012. Hickson leaves looking for money/minutes, so he's still gone. not magically making him stay. Now we were better, so we wouldn't be drafting #5, so let's go ahead and push us back in the lottey, and again just stick close and say we ened up taking John Henson later in the lottery, since we did have an interest there. We still elt Donte go for failure to develop. And so we still pick up JJ from Toronto for a 2nd round pick. I don't think we sign Brooks, but you add him there if you want. In any casew, this season we are sitting on:
Bigs: Dalembert, Cousins, Thompson, Henson
Small forwards: Leonard, Johnson, Cisco
Guards: Reke, Thornton, Beno, IT, possibly Brooks
Coach: McMillan
and the crew has largely been together for 2 years. 2 shotblockers. 2 defenders at SF. Deep pretty good sized backcourt. I am not saying we play for the title this year, but that to me is CLEARLY far better than what we have right now, not least because we have a real coach who has proven he can win. So don't tell me that oh, these core guys are so terrible that we just can't win with them. That how many years do we have to try. That's B.S. We haven't tried. We have screwed the pooch. If the core guys look terrible at least a large chunk of that iis because WE have flat been absolutely terrible at building around them. Its chaos.
Exactly.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Simple Changes #2 (of 3)
Okay, so the other way I go minimalist things that asbolutely could/should have been done that change everything. Here I go more pie in sky just to illustrate again:
I ahve been puttering away over in the personnel forum suggeting various youth for vet trades that could add stability here, even at the cost of our youth + possible talent. Reaosn being pretty simple: too much chaos and shot happy guys here.
So let me now just port over three moves that people might scream about and watch what happens again:
Move #1: Trade Marcus Thornton for Tayshaun Prince (and let's say +Austin Daye for balance)
-- what? arrghh!! I like Marcus! potential 20ppg scorer! What are you doing!!?
Move #2: Trade Salmons, Robinson, Jimmer, Outlaw for Pau Gasol
-- what? arrgh!! Pau is in decline! Its the Lakers! Those are our last two lottery picks! And they are such nice guys/hard workers!!
Move #3: Sign Mike Bibby off the scrap heap
K? got all that? Now that looks like I have seriously seriously screwed the pooch. What the hell am I on about? Trading/signing a bunch of 33/34 yr old guys. Well, what I am on about is this:
C- Demarcus Cousins
PF- Pau Gasol
SF- Tayshaun Prince
SG- Tyreke Evans
PG- Aaron Brooks
Bench: Jason Thompson, Chuck Hayes, James Johnson, Isaiah Thomas, Austin Daye, Mike Bibby, Francisco Garcia
Oh yeah, and my real coach again: Head Coach Nate McMillan.
-- wait...wha...?? How'd that happen? Where'd our selfish midget team of young and dumb chuckers go? How'd we suddenly look like a veteran playoff squad working in two new young stars. Wha happened??
So AGAIN, my point being, not that those exact deals or that exact lineup woold result, but damnit, we ain't even TRIED with our core guys. We have done absolutely the worst job possible of surrounding them with supporting talent.
Okay, so the other way I go minimalist things that asbolutely could/should have been done that change everything. Here I go more pie in sky just to illustrate again:
I ahve been puttering away over in the personnel forum suggeting various youth for vet trades that could add stability here, even at the cost of our youth + possible talent. Reaosn being pretty simple: too much chaos and shot happy guys here.
So let me now just port over three moves that people might scream about and watch what happens again:
Move #1: Trade Marcus Thornton for Tayshaun Prince (and let's say +Austin Daye for balance)
-- what? arrghh!! I like Marcus! potential 20ppg scorer! What are you doing!!?
Move #2: Trade Salmons, Robinson, Jimmer, Outlaw for Pau Gasol
-- what? arrgh!! Pau is in decline! Its the Lakers! Those are our last two lottery picks! And they are such nice guys/hard workers!!
Move #3: Sign Mike Bibby off the scrap heap
K? got all that? Now that looks like I have seriously seriously screwed the pooch. What the hell am I on about? Trading/signing a bunch of 33/34 yr old guys. Well, what I am on about is this:
C- Demarcus Cousins
PF- Pau Gasol
SF- Tayshaun Prince
SG- Tyreke Evans
PG- Aaron Brooks
Bench: Jason Thompson, Chuck Hayes, James Johnson, Isaiah Thomas, Austin Daye, Mike Bibby, Francisco Garcia
Oh yeah, and my real coach again: Head Coach Nate McMillan.
-- wait...wha...?? How'd that happen? Where'd our selfish midget team of young and dumb chuckers go? How'd we suddenly look like a veteran playoff squad working in two new young stars. Wha happened??
So AGAIN, my point being, not that those exact deals or that exact lineup woold result, but damnit, we ain't even TRIED with our core guys. We have done absolutely the worst job possible of surrounding them with supporting talent.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Simple Changes #3 (of 3)
And so for my third of these, let me just go purely to a theoretical exercise. Let's just swap "supporting casts" with a few teams w/ a big scoring guard/big man duo around the league. Who do ytou think would do better, our current team, or:
1) Cousins replaces David West, Reke replaces either George or Granger, your choice. Rest remains the same, inlcuding the coach:
Hibbert, Cousins, Granger, Reke, Hill?
Coach: Vogel
2) how about Reke replaces Rose, Cousins repalces Boozer?
Noah, Cousins, Deng, scrub, Reke?
Coach: Thibodeau
3) what about this one:
Cousins + Reke show up in San Antonio and repalce Duncan and Parker, or Manu. Rest of the team remains the same, Pop remains the same.
The question isn't whether those teams would do as well wiht our kids as they are doing with their vets, but whether those hybrid teams would be good teams or not, FAR better teams than the one we have. And the answer is unequivocably yes. And so once again, don't tell me "oh, we've tried so hard and so long to build around these guys and it just, can't, work!" B.S. We haven't tried at all. We have done absolutely everything wrong, everything possible to interfere with their development and provide thme none of the support pieces considered absolutely industry standard in the competent corners of the league. No experienced coach. No willing roleplayers and defenders who don't need shots. No shotblockers to cover their asses. No anything but a bunch of interfering little chuckers who are in the way.
And so for my third of these, let me just go purely to a theoretical exercise. Let's just swap "supporting casts" with a few teams w/ a big scoring guard/big man duo around the league. Who do ytou think would do better, our current team, or:
1) Cousins replaces David West, Reke replaces either George or Granger, your choice. Rest remains the same, inlcuding the coach:
Hibbert, Cousins, Granger, Reke, Hill?
Coach: Vogel
2) how about Reke replaces Rose, Cousins repalces Boozer?
Noah, Cousins, Deng, scrub, Reke?
Coach: Thibodeau
3) what about this one:
Cousins + Reke show up in San Antonio and repalce Duncan and Parker, or Manu. Rest of the team remains the same, Pop remains the same.
The question isn't whether those teams would do as well wiht our kids as they are doing with their vets, but whether those hybrid teams would be good teams or not, FAR better teams than the one we have. And the answer is unequivocably yes. And so once again, don't tell me "oh, we've tried so hard and so long to build around these guys and it just, can't, work!" B.S. We haven't tried at all. We have done absolutely everything wrong, everything possible to interfere with their development and provide thme none of the support pieces considered absolutely industry standard in the competent corners of the league. No experienced coach. No willing roleplayers and defenders who don't need shots. No shotblockers to cover their asses. No anything but a bunch of interfering little chuckers who are in the way.
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HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
^i think the rest of the league would be pooping their pants if any of those situations happened
Question: how many seasons did we actually try to build around Reke as the main ballhandler? Answer: 1. How many games did we win? 25. The following season Evans was injured, but we still saw hope of a good team that could be built. This was a team with Luther Head and Pooh Jeter as backup PGs mind you. Have we actually improved the talent on our team while still building around Reke as the main ballhandler? Not until about 5-6 games this season.
So how exactly can you say that we've tried building around Evans and it's failed? Seattle/OKC won less than 25 games for 2 years with Durant. According to you they should have blown up the team and traded him before year 3. Funny how the team basically doubled its wins after firing Carlesimo (with a full offseason).
slugking50
All-Star
This sums it up. There is a huge talent disparity between the 2 teams. This team has the IQ of a turnip, can't shoot and is generally unwilling to pass. 3 things that won't ever improve.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Er...what? All three of those things have been known to improve.
Almost every player in the NBA was a big fish at one point. They were the man on their team they went 1 on 5 for entire games and they all had to make changes as their team mates and opponents got as good or better then them. Few players get into the nba by setting up their non shooting high school team. Few nba players can't play one on one. Guys have to learn to play team ball and it is usually long after they have learned to play by themselves and picked up bad habits. It takes someone teaching them what is needed and it takes them and team mates willing to work together and share which breaks down the defense and makes it easier to score.
There are no teams that just worked at a championship level everyone had to accept roles and work together and everyone had to make changes to their games. If players don't fit they had to change their play to fit or you change to system to take advantage of their aberrant play. So I have long rejected that this team can't work as constructed because we haven't even tried. Its only when we have a real system that takes advantage of our unique talents and role players and one of those players refuses to accept their role that you can say something doesn't fit. And that's when a player is traded. When you pull 5 guys out of a hat and throw them the ball you can't expect them to have a good offense or defensive game plan, just read and react you will be fine....
I like the saying Sometimes incompetence looks like sabotage. The reverse is also true the right system can make a player look smart.
There are no teams that just worked at a championship level everyone had to accept roles and work together and everyone had to make changes to their games. If players don't fit they had to change their play to fit or you change to system to take advantage of their aberrant play. So I have long rejected that this team can't work as constructed because we haven't even tried. Its only when we have a real system that takes advantage of our unique talents and role players and one of those players refuses to accept their role that you can say something doesn't fit. And that's when a player is traded. When you pull 5 guys out of a hat and throw them the ball you can't expect them to have a good offense or defensive game plan, just read and react you will be fine....
I like the saying Sometimes incompetence looks like sabotage. The reverse is also true the right system can make a player look smart.
slugking50
All-Star
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Yep. This is the thing so many people, including our front office, apparently do not understand.
Gary
All-Star
You are giving him way too much credit for his court vision. It's not very good at all. And who cares if Evans is 20/5/5 if the team still sucks? If every other player has to suffer to get Evans his 20/5/5 then that will never be a recipe for success. Remember when the team was trying to get him the 20-5-5 at the end of his rookie year? The team was just terrible. I don't want to see that happen again.
I agree with you on the Beno thing but no matter how well they played together the team was still terrible. I think that trade was the dumbest thing we could have ever done, and if Petrie and the Maloofs cannot find a player to fit with Reke as well as Beno did after three years then they need to get rid of Evans or the GM.
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