Tankathon in effect? Joerger says 2 vets will rest each game (split)

KingsSelecao said:
What scares me about Doncic is his complete lack of Athleticsm. Is his talent going to translate? Especially, when he has to go against players that are stronger and faster than him? Euro's scare me. A lot of them have looked good/great over the years, but very few have been special.
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Well Bogdanovic is doing quite well in the NBA, and Doncic is more talented (way more productive at age 18 than Bogdan was at 24 in Europe) and he is taller and more athletic than Bogdan. So I think it well translate well.

Generally you can say skill > athleticism.

But you are right it is a weakness for him. You probably dont want to ask him to attack in iso and score against the best NBA defenders. You shift the defense a bit and let him work of subsequent closeouts or pick apart defenses of pick and rolls with his vision and passing.
 
biltalent said:
Agree on Ayton but is Bagley fitwise any better? Offensively yes, but defensively? He would have to chase stretch 4s and wing players around screens. Its just the way the NBA is now. You get killed on D if you insist on playing big.
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Well it all depends on the the offense Joerger wants to run. At this point, it's not clear. Ayton looks like a heir apparent to Zbo. If Joerger want Grit and Grind 2, Then Joerger is salivating at the thought of Ayton.


Kings badly need an impact 3, so Doncic or Porter have to be the choices. Kings can't go wrong with Ayton either. Kings need a strong rebounder in the worst way. I just don't see WCS as that guy.

1. Doncic
2. Porter
3. Ayton
4. Bagley


If Kings fall out of the Top 4 it becomes tricky. I am a little concerned about a late season winning streak, Like last year. Winning 5 of the last 10. Kings play 11 of 14 at home in March.

After the Top 4
you have Trae, which looks awesome. But, the Kings have Fox. You have Jaren Jackson, Bamba
 
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KingsSelecao said:
What scares me about Doncic is his complete lack of Athleticsm. Is his talent going to translate? Especially, when he has to go against players that are stronger and faster than him? Euro's scare me. A lot of them have looked good/great over the years, but very few have been special.
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Wasn’t Bogdan questioned like this. Doncic is bigger and has more skills than Bogdan and looks a little more athletic. If Bogdans game can transfer so could Doncic. And people need to stop looking at past players and say oh that didn’t work. What Doncic is doing has never been done by a player his age never. Watch what he did for his national team this year vs nba players he’s a killer.
 
kingdivac said:
From another look Ayton looks a little stronger especially in upper body in comparison, while Stein is quicker and a better leaper. This was my first day of starting to view picks.......Ayton would help defense and rebounding immediately I'd think. He actually kinda reminds me of Derrick Favors a bit in style - I dunno. On another highlight, Ayton is definitely unafraid to try his shot from anywhere.....I gotta look through at least the first 15 mock picks before casting actual judgement.
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Aytons defense to me is underwhelming. Both he and Willie have similar touch around the rim to me. A little janky but effective. They tend to slam the ball off the backboard or rim yet it goes in.
 
KingsSelecao said:
I watched the Arizona game tonite. He's athletic like Willie. But, Already better than him and 6 years younger. A much stronger post and rebound guy. WCS looked good tonite against Joe Ingles. Not Gobert.
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Yeah, he's got more potential for sure, not sure about defensively though. Also, I've watched a lot of this draft class from high school on and I'm still eager to see him against some of the better competition because when going against his high level prospect counterparts he always seemed to fade and didn't stick out as much.
 
You guys are crazy with the Ayton disrespect dudes a beast he’s gotten better st defense so he won’t be bad probably average. He’s getting double on every play cause Arizona plays 2 bigs he will feast in the league he’s already huge and they say he only started lifting weights this year. He’s a better athlete than wcs and they could definitely play together.

Getting any of Doncic, Ayton, and Bagley will be huge all superstar potential
 
biltalent said:
Why is that? I mean you can make a case for Ayton > Doncic in a vacuum (though I would disagree) but for the Kings specifically I dont see it. In my opinion, the Kings starve for high IQ wing players that can shoot, pass and playmake. The last thing they need positionally is another young Center that likes to have the ball in the post and doesnt protect the rim. There are already four of those on the team.
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Because I have no trust in the big man on this team being main bigs on a perennial contender. WCS shows flashes but I am not convinced that he is your main big on a very good team because he just doesn't rebound enough for a main big. I love his length, athleticism and developing offensive game but he falls short on KEY elements (IMHO) for a big man which are rebounding, defense and ability to have the go to scoring move.

Maybe Giles can be that guy but from what I have seen so far from our bigs, there is not a single player there that I would be comfortable with them being the number #1 big on a perennial contender. With wings, these are easier to get than quality big men. I love Doncic. I think he is the best young European prospect I have seen in my lifetime, at least in terms of production. However, I would be a bit concerned with our wing athleticism. Bogdan, Luka and Buddy are not exactly athletically gifted and in a league that relies on a lot of perimeter scorers, that could spell trouble defensively. Also you have Fox and Bogdan who are at their best when they create. Add Luka to that mix and you have 3 players that are most effective when they run the show.

With Ayton, I love the size and the offensive potential. He is an elite rebounder, can score in the low post and has a jumper that will develop and stretch our to 3pt line. I am a bit old school but I believe that the two most difficult positions to fill are C and PG. If you get Ayton, there is your go to scorer in time. Both Ayton and Fox will develop those jumpers which will improve with the spacing when the Kings are ready to contend.

You have Bogdan at SG who can play off the ball or create and is a decent defender. Next to Ayton, you can have WCS but ideally you want someone who is a better rebounder, defender and can stretch the floor. Maybe Giles, or maybe Skal if he ever develops. Then at SF you can really get a way with a high level role playing SF a 3 and D type of guy. With Ayton being a great rebounder, you can afford to play small ball around him without really losing the battle of the boards. When you have a big guy that can control the boards it opens up a number of options and different looks you can throw at the opposition.

I would be happy with either Doncic or Ayton but if I was building the team, I would want a big guy to pair with Fox. They might appear as not a great fit at the moment, but I am looking 2-3 years from now when both get their jumpers to the point where they can stretch the floor which improves the spacing. Maybe I am wrong, it won't be the first time. Maybe Giles is really that good that we have our franchise big but I haven't seen him play at NBA level so I can't make that call. All I can go on is what I have see on the court.
 
206Fan said:
I love Ayton..but floor spacing would be an absolute nightmare on this team.

Fox-WCS-Ayton...

be prepared to see teams triple team Ayton.
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I think both Ayton and Fox will develop their jumpers that eliminates a lot of the floor spacing issues. I am looking at 2-3 years from now and not right this minute.

On WCS, I am not convinced that Kings will keep him long term. Maybe if Giles really is the real deal but I get the feeling that WCS will get a huge offer in FA that Kings would not want to match. He hasn't shown me enough to suggest he is the main big man on a very good team. Maybe he will prove me wrong.
 
biltalent said:
Well Bogdanovic is doing quite well in the NBA, and Doncic is more talented (way more productive at age 18 than Bogdan was at 24 in Europe) and he is taller and more athletic than Bogdan. So I think it well translate well.

Generally you can say skill > athleticism.

But you are right it is a weakness for him. You probably dont want to ask him to attack in iso and score against the best NBA defenders. You shift the defense a bit and let him work of subsequent closeouts or pick apart defenses of pick and rolls with his vision and passing.
Click to expand...
Not sure Luka is more athletic than Bogdan and I have seen a fair bit of both.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
Yes. A team can definitely have too many creators on floor. Why, remember when we tried to have four creators on the floor simultaneously with Bibby, Christie, Webber, and Divac? Man, those teams were AWFUL.
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Yet, that's the exact system they are trying to work in around the young players they have and it's FAILING. Why? Because unlike that team this one is situated around pick and roll driving guards. And yes, most certainly you can have too many of those. Pick and roll is a two man game set up that can branch off into other plays, but it's still a two man game. A similarly constructed "ball movement" oriented team that was somewhat like that Kings team and probably more closely resembles this current crop is the Nash led Suns. They were flush with finishers and shooters, not pick and roll guards. This team is short on finishers at the moment.

Joerger likes his two PG lineups but when has that ever really clicked on the floor in a meaningful way? In the end you're sticking a PG off the ball and when doing so you effectively make him not a PG.
 
SacTownKid said:
Yet, that's the exact system they are trying to work in around the young players they have and it's FAILING. Why? Because unlike that team this one is situated around pick and roll driving guards. And yes, most certainly you can have too many of those. Pick and roll is a two man game set up that can branch off into other plays, but it's still a two man game. A similarly constructed "ball movement" oriented team that was somewhat like that Kings team and probably more closely resembles this current crop is the Nash led Suns. They were flush with finishers and shooters, not pick and roll guards. This team is short on finishers at the moment.

Joerger likes his two PG lineups but when has that ever really clicked on the floor in a meaningful way? In the end you're sticking a PG off the ball and when doing so you effectively make him not a PG.
Click to expand...

yeah, all kidding aside, the reason same style of play does not work with the current team is that the current bigs are nowhere near Webb/Vlade in the playmaking ability.

with the nba looking more like euro bball with pnr sets and strech bigs, having multiple players who can make good decisions in those sets is not a problem as long as they all can also shoot and be useful while the other guy is running the play. that way you could give defenses different looks with different players running the pnr with their own unique strengths/style. the "numbers" for each of those players would probably be depressed as they share the ball, but the team would be more potent on offense with the variety. of course, you would *actually* have to run the pnr for this to work :).
 
The Hammer said:
I'm all for it at this point.

The season has gotten interesting. Legit shot at #1 pick for first time in decades. Exciting!
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Decades? We had the worst record and best chance to land the #1 pick in the 2009 draft. And that’s only if you classify having the worst record as having a “legit shot.” Does the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th best chance at landing it not count by your definition?
 
SacTownKid said:
Yet, that's the exact system they are trying to work in around the young players they have and it's FAILING. Why? Because unlike that team this one is situated around pick and roll driving guards. And yes, most certainly you can have too many of those. Pick and roll is a two man game set up that can branch off into other plays, but it's still a two man game. A similarly constructed "ball movement" oriented team that was somewhat like that Kings team and probably more closely resembles this current crop is the Nash led Suns. They were flush with finishers and shooters, not pick and roll guards. This team is short on finishers at the moment.

Joerger likes his two PG lineups but when has that ever really clicked on the floor in a meaningful way? In the end you're sticking a PG off the ball and when doing so you effectively make him not a PG.
Click to expand...

George Hill is the only PG we can do that with but he essentially goes from an average PG to a below average SG because he's now playing out of position and his defense goes from solid to iffy since he is now at a physical disadvantage. Playing Fox at SG is just a waste of time.

The two PG lineup will never win us any games but something has to be done with Hill so Joerger is doing his best to juggle the rotations. The only vet on this team I really care about putting numbers up on the board is Hill because he's the only vet that has any value. So I don't mind it this year but it would definitely be an annoyance if he was doing this during a "try and win" year.
 
The Hammer said:
I'm all for it at this point.

The season has gotten interesting. Legit shot at #1 pick for first time in decades. Exciting!
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It's actually the most excited I've ever been for a draft in a long time. 2009 was cool, but we were only a few years removed from the playoffs so I was a little salty that we were bad and didn't really care about the draft. Ever since then it seems like we've always been bad and unwatchable, but never bad enough to where I thought we had a realistic chance at the top guys in the draft. Over the last 8 years we've drafted 5, 10, 5, 7, 8, 6, 13, 5. It does strangely feel good to be in the mix for the number 1 overall pick.
 
twslam07 said:
Decades? We had the worst record and best chance to land the #1 pick in the 2009 draft. And that’s only if you classify having the worst record as having a “legit shot.” Does the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th best chance at landing it not count by your definition?
Click to expand...
Not Hammer but I think he meant that if we did actually land the pick it would be the first time in decades. Which is true. 4 decades if you like to measure semantically. Still 29 years either way. Longer than many fans here have followed the team.
 
burekijogurt said:
yeah, all kidding aside, the reason same style of play does not work with the current team is that the current bigs are nowhere near Webb/Vlade in the playmaking ability.

with the nba looking more like euro bball with pnr sets and strech bigs, having multiple players who can make good decisions in those sets is not a problem as long as they all can also shoot and be useful while the other guy is running the play. that way you could give defenses different looks with different players running the pnr with their own unique strengths/style. the "numbers" for each of those players would probably be depressed as they share the ball, but the team would be more potent on offense with the variety. of course, you would *actually* have to run the pnr for this to work :).
Click to expand...

It could be similar to the Heat with Wade and Lebron. They ran a lot of 2/3 and 2/4 pick and roll. The problem still comes back to the finishing. The Kings current crop with someone like Doncic added doesn't have it like a Wade and Lebron do. The main issue is teams will switch the heck out of it so it might not be as effective. It should certainly work in may ways, but yes, as you said numbers will be depressed so individual expectations on certain players might be effected.
 
ESP47 said:
George Hill is the only PG we can do that with but he essentially goes from an average PG to a below average SG because he's now playing out of position and his defense goes from solid to iffy since he is now at a physical disadvantage. Playing Fox at SG is just a waste of time.

The two PG lineup will never win us any games but something has to be done with Hill so Joerger is doing his best to juggle the rotations. The only vet on this team I really care about putting numbers up on the board is Hill because he's the only vet that has any value. So I don't mind it this year but it would definitely be an annoyance if he was doing this during a "try and win" year.
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That's the funny/annoying thing about it because like burekijogurt brought up, a team with multiple pick and roll guards lets you attack teams with with different combos so if he really wanted something out of a two PG lineup letting Fox and Hill switch off running pick and roll would be the way to do it, yet, here we sit broken hearted. lol.
 
Take Ayton and make the most of Willie's year by trading him for a decent young wing, Hezonja is around.

There is no way Vlade passes on Doncic though
 
SacTownKid said:
That's the funny/annoying thing about it because like burekijogurt brought up, a team with multiple pick and roll guards lets you attack teams with with different combos so if he really wanted something out of a two PG lineup letting Fox and Hill switch off running pick and roll would be the way to do it, yet, here we sit broken hearted. lol.
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yeah sometimes when Zbo is in we get Hill watching Fox dump the ball to Zbo. but i do beleive as the season progresses they will rum more plays suited to the youngsters..
 
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