Talking defense (split)
- Thread starter sdballer
- Start date
Gary
All-Star
Team defense > Individual defense IMO..... As long as the team defense is decent (at least middle of the pack) in allowed fg% and 3pt% along with keeping opponents offensive boards and assists down I will be happy. As longa s they all buy into the team concept I think we will be fine.
I've heard of teams playing good team defense without shot blocking, but I can't think of any team that's ever played good team defense without at least one top-tier defensive starter. So, who's that guy gonna be for the Kings?
Hadlowe
Starter
Mbah a' Moute. Possibly the best wing defender in the league.
Realistically, though, if you are building around team defense without shot blocking, you need three strong perimeter defenders and good rebounding inside. Mbah a Moute can shut down an opposing wing, but Thornton/IT/Vasquez cannot. That still leaves 4 guys who will torch our players.
Last edited:
Better than James? Better than George? Better than Iguodala, Leonard, Prince, Allen, Wallace, Butler, Stephenson, Marion, Bradley, Kirilenko? Sure, he is.
He's probably in the discussion though his injury may have robbed him of some quickness. It still doesn't make up for the fact that just about every other player (not just starter) is below average to awful on d.
Nonsense. People literally point to a one year example in gs to support this argument. Besides what may be a one year glitch name a conpetitive team that started an awful defensive backcourt with no inside presence.
To say nothing of the fact that it's hardly a coincidence that Golden State was in the bottom third of the league, defensively, until Bogut finally got right, somewhere around the All-Star Break. And, even then, they were still barely middle of the road. And, as hot as Curry and Thompson were on offense in the playoffs, if Bogut doesn't average ten-plus boards and two-plus blocks in the first round, they probably don't beat Denver.
Hadlowe
Starter
He is an excellent defensive wing. Durant has said that he has the hardest time with Mbah a Moute's defense. He is (was) quicker than all of the people you name except Iggy, James and George. He has better size than all of them except James, AK47 and Marion. He is a small forward-sized version of Tony Allen. Zero offense but lockdown defense. Assuming he stays healthy, hopefully he can give us what James Johnson should have given us last year.
Hadlowe
Starter
Pretty much this. Team defense is a neat idea, but you really need a big man anchor unless you can run Chalmers, Battier, James and Wade at the opponents to shut down the outside.
Didn't Dirk Nowitzki, at one point, say that Stojakovic gave his the most trouble, defensively? Perhaps that's just a good matchup for Mbah a Moute? I'm not saying that he's not a good defender, but he has also played his whole career on a team with top-tier shot blockers, and other pretty good defenders around him, and defensive-minded coaches. Now, he's going to a team where it appears he's only going to have one out of three. So, I guess we'll find out how good he actually is.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I think Malone has his work cut out for him. So far the Kings have lost Douglas, Tyreke, and Aldrich. Douglas was the best defender on the team last year. Tyreke was second. (Leave off Johnson altogether because he couldn't get on the floor because of inept offense). Aldrich was the best defensive center. So you lose three very good to pretty good defenders. You gain Luc, a very good defender, Landry, who is mediocre at defending, and Vasquez, a mediocre defender (according to the consensus). I think it's very tough on any rookie like McLemore to be a good defender his rookie year. I have to assume that at best he's going to be an ok defender in his rookie year. Net-net, the defensive talent is worse than last year. At least so far. Just to stay even on defense from last year, Malone is going to have to do an above average job as a defensive coach. To gain traction on last year, he's going to have to be an elite defensive coach. Unless a major trade is done, it seems to me there is going to be a very big strain put on the coaching staff and the players to rise above the bottom third of the league in terms of defense.
Kingsfan23
All-Star
I've never seen him play. From the statistical analysis seen and some of the reports/opinions I've heard, labeling Vasquez a mediocre defender would be generous, but hopefully this is not the case.
Gary
All-Star
I believe he is in the same league as some of those players. We also have JT who's a decent defender. Salmons used to be good and maybe he'll be good again this year. IT was good only 1 on 1 against PGs. We really don't have a top tier defensive player though so we need to make the team defense work.
Gary
All-Star
Peja was terrible when he first arrived, but with the system we had in place every player knew what they had to do. Their minds were one so they knew when they had to help and where they had to be. Peja actually became a decent defender because of how good the team defense got. He knew when he would get help, and he knew what he had to focus on, rather than just being all over the place.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I realize that he doesn't come with all the bells and whistles of those you mentioned, but he is probably one of the top 5 defenders in the league when healthy. However, whether you agree or disagree or not, he's certainly in that group, and that's going to help our team defense. I think McLemore can become a very good defender. He has all the tools. Doesn't mean he will, but with his athleticism, if he puts in the work, it wouldn't take a lot to be better than Thornton. Also, the Kings can do a lot more with the zone defense with Vasquez on the floor, than they could with IT on the floor. Just by the nature of the zone defense, since your guarding an area instead of a particular player, your going to get mismatches, which is why we didn't play much zone defense after IT became the starter. Put IT in a zone, and your going to end up with him staring at Kevin Durant.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Peja had very good lateral quickness and understood team defense. Rick Adelman once said that Peja was one of the best defenders on the team. He just didn't get the recognition others did.
This. Put Mbah on the Lakers, Heat, Knicks and he probably has an All-NBA defensive award or 2 already. Milwaukee is a market exactly like Sacramento where no one cares or knows about the players.
As far as defense goes, very few have the defensive versatility of Mbah in the league. He defends the 2-4 positions at a high level. Best of all, he has great bball IQ (unlike Johnson), he knows his role on offense, and he's an excellent on the boards for the SF position. He's absolutely that defensive leader we've been missing since the Artest/Christie days.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Well first, it won't be hard to stay even, since we were at the bottom to begin with. We were 30th in scoring defense, 28th in shooting defense and 28th in blocks and steals. I mean, there's nowhere to go but up! Give me five very smart players with good BBIQ, but average athleticism, and put me up against 5 players with poor BBIQ but excellent athleticism, and I'll beat the pants off the athletic players just about every time. To think its all about just keeping your man in front of you is misguided. Who can keep players like Paul, Rose, Westbrook, etc, in front of them. If they can't freeze you off the dribble, their team will free them up with a pick. Its what happens after they get past their defender that matters, and that's where team defense matters.
Doing your homework and knowing who your guarding is one of the most important parts of team defense. If they like to shoot from a certain spot, you deny them that spot. If they like to go right, you make them go left. If they like to spin left into the key, you make them spin toward the baseline. You always try to make them go where your help is. Apparently last years team was too busy talking on their cellphones, or texting to pay attention to that kind of information. Just improving in that area alone, will improve the overall defense.
When the Kings team was made up of Webber, Vlade, Peja, Christie, and Bibby, they were one of the better defensive teams in the league. Christie was the only elite defender on the team. Webb, while an explosiver leaper, and a good shotblocker, wasn't blessed with good lateral quickness, and he struggled at times to keep some of the quicker PF's in front of him. But it didn't matter because that team played such good team defense. I don't expect that this group is going to go from the bottom to the top in a blink of an eye, but its not going to take much to work up to the middle of the pack from where they are..
There's no doubt that defense has to be the top priority. But our offense does need some tweaking as well. We were 10th in the league in scoring last season, but only 18th in efficiency. Just because you score a lot of points, doesn't mean your being efficient while doing it. It just means that you shot quicker, and therefore you took more shots in order to score more points. The truth is, we had no system on defense, or offense, other than fly by the seat of your pants. Zero discipline! Hopefully that's all going to change.
Last edited:
There's no chance that Mbah a Moute is a "Top 5" defender in the NBA, even if you don't count post players. I'm sure that he's good, maybe even very good, but Top 5 is a very charitable assessment. Can we, at least, see what he does without an elite shot blocker before making a claim like that? I mean, it might be a coincidence that the two worst seasons Milwaukee had defensively during Mbah a Moute's time there were the two seasons where Bogut played less than forty games... but I doubt it.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
The change in discipline must occur. Otherwise the whole organization will lose credibility and the Vivek regime will start on a very foreboding note. Right now all the players seem to be doing the happy talk about defense. I'm looking forward to see how that is going to be translated into action on the floor. It's one thing to talk the talk. Let's see what happens when they must walk the walk.
That's where I think the acquisition of Mbah a Moute might help set the tone.
Is that why we get all those 16/1 upsets in the NCAA's?
Don't undersell the value of good defensive backups; Jackson and Pollard weren't on that squad because they looked pretty.
All things being equal, I'd rather turn the defense around, first. Stuff the offense. Maybe D'Alessandro is done, maybe he isn't. If we don't end up moving either or both of Thompson and Patterson, I'd have much rather had a defensive backup big than an undersized, one-way player like Landry. Once we change the culture defensively, then we can worry about how efficient our offense is. Are the additions of Malone and Mbah a Moute good enough to effect that culture change? I am somewhat less than optimistic.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Yes! I don't! And I agree! I think Butler is a college example of a team not having any known star quality, but getting all the way to the championship game in the NCAA tourney. A lot of mid-level schools don't have the ability to recruit the top highschool players, so they have to play smarter. Not saying it will win you a championship, but it might put you in the running.
I don't undersell the importance of a good bench. Pollard was very underrated at times, but he was a solid fundamental player that played good man and team defense. As did Bobby, Jon Barry, even Lawrence Funderburke. Finally, I agree that defense has to be our first priority, and said as much. I was simply pointing out, that our offense wasn't as efficient as some want to think it was. But in truth, if it stayed exactly the same, and we improved our defense to where it jumped up to somewhere close to the 16th or 17th position, I'd be inclined to think that we'd win 35 plus games.
Look, I sincerely doubt that this team, as it stands right now can make the playoffs. Stranger things have happened! No one expected the Warrior team in 1975 to win the championship. As a matter of fact, I believe they were picked to finish last in their division. But everything jelled, and they were off to the races. That was a once in a million event. But this team should certainly be better than it showed last season. With or without Tyreke! Ten more wins should certainly be possible. Maybe even a few more. That still won't get us into the playoffs, but it would show improvement, and perhaps show were starting to turn the corner
CruzDude
Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
Bottom line, defense is a culture that everyone buys into. Communications on the defensive end becomes paramount to a defensive culture that becomes a mind set. If the brain is into it and the coaching explains the roles everyone must play on the defensive end, then players talking to each other starts to close that zipper of a tighter defense no matter where the ball is on the court.
Transition defense then becomes the other defensive key and would appear to be the hardest to learn as ones instincts have to come into play. The culture has to breed those instincts and integrate the mandatory "hustle" with improved instincts to enable coordinated reactions to a break. Culture takes role play and BB IQ and tries to mold it into a defensive culture.
So far we have heard the talk about defensive culture but we have yet to see if all the vets buy in and practice what is preached in pre-season. This year, more than ever since 2003-04, there is excitement at the possibilities based on the FA signings and trades and draft. Only 65 more days until we get to peak under the new culture curtain and see what kind of defensive mind set can evolve from Mbah a Moute, McLemore, Vasquez, Boogie, Landry and PPat. I can hardly wait!!
Transition defense then becomes the other defensive key and would appear to be the hardest to learn as ones instincts have to come into play. The culture has to breed those instincts and integrate the mandatory "hustle" with improved instincts to enable coordinated reactions to a break. Culture takes role play and BB IQ and tries to mold it into a defensive culture.
So far we have heard the talk about defensive culture but we have yet to see if all the vets buy in and practice what is preached in pre-season. This year, more than ever since 2003-04, there is excitement at the possibilities based on the FA signings and trades and draft. Only 65 more days until we get to peak under the new culture curtain and see what kind of defensive mind set can evolve from Mbah a Moute, McLemore, Vasquez, Boogie, Landry and PPat. I can hardly wait!!
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
We don't actually have a defense at the moment, we have a coach. Not a single move or position we have is obviously better defensively than we thought we were 1 yr ago at this time -- we swapped Patterson for Robinson, Landry for Hayes, McLemore for Reke, Mbaha Moute for Johnson, Vasquez for...Brooks I suppose. McCallum for Douglas. What we do have is one ex-Golden State assistant coach for another. And that's got to be the hope. Is Smart were coaching this new lineup there would be no real reason to hope it would be any better defensively than the one he coached last year. But maybe Malone is that guy finally.
HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
I think the real hope is Brendan Malone.
We sink or swim with Michael Malone but I agree that Papa is a big positive factor.
I have been positive about our outlook with all this positive change but I am particularly so as I sit here in Mendocino County looking out of a wall of picture windows on the ocean and an inlet which ends at the small beach at Casper. This is "baja country" north. It sure helps develop a positive outlook.
Michael's emphasis on defense can make a very significant positive impact even with the same players. If we have added players with improved attitudes and commitment it can only help. There goes two seagulls followed by a vulture and up goes my optimism another notch. Love vacation ( even though I don't work).
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Changing the culture and actually teaching defense, going back the fundamentals and forming a foundation to build on can definitely help us on that end of the floor and we'd likely see a decent bump in games won if everyone buys in and if Malone is anywhere near as good as we hope he will be. Just by having structure, knowing your opponent, being on the same page with screens/switches/cutters/flares/rotations/etc, we should see noticeable improvement. It will take some time but as long as we lay a foundation and build one step at a time we'll see the difference.
However, culture change or not, Malone being a defensive wizard or not, we've put a ceiling on the level we can reach defensively with our off season moves. At a certain point it comes down to the defensive capabilities of the players on the floor, and it's not tough to assume we'll have more mismatches going in the opponents favor than ours unless we actually see more roster movement. Vasquez and either MLM/Thornton will be a mismatch favoring the opponent, and with what appears will be a Vasquez/MT backcourt to start the season we'll have an uphill battle every night. We still don't have a starting SF. Maybe Mbah will start and can have success defensively as a starting SF, but I'm not convinced he is a starting level SF in this league. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in this discussion though. Then looking at our 4's, whether it's PP or Landry starting that's another mismatch in favor the opponent. Cuz while I believe he can improve a considerable amount defensively is still below average and will struggle even more on that end until he gets a real defensive presence next to him, which PP and Landry aren't. Maybe JT starts at the 4 but I doubt it given we currently don't have a backup center and he's the only guy we have who can play there, and given PDA couldn't resist giving Landry a 4 yr deal I'd assume he likes stretch 4's and will prefer a PP/Landry PF rotation.
Of course the roster can change but as of now one can easily make the argument 4 of our 5 starters are below average defensively with the benefit of the doubt going to Mbah who might not even be a starter. We've heard a fair amount of talk about defense, but simply put our roster moves don't back that strategy thus far, it's actually the opposite where our backcourt defensively is worse than last year and our frontcourt is worse as well, as to this point we've seen Aldrich walk and the only big we've brought in is Landry, and in the backcourt we've seen Reke/Douglas leave and brought Vasquez and a rook in, a rook with above average defensive potential no doubt, but it's still an overall loss defensively to this point and I'd argue significant at that.
Even top defensive coaches like Doc and Thibs need top individual defenders to have success on that end. This talk of team defense and Malone bringing structure, while a positive only means so much if our FO isn't giving him the pieces to succeed on that end. It would mean a helluva lot more if the moves of our FO were in alignment with the apparent defensive philosophy.
Edit to add: There have been some very good teams when it comes to well coaches team defense and knowing and sticking to a plan, but most teams who excel when it comes to team defense defend on the philosophy of funneling the target to the shotblocker. You need very good individual perimeter defenders to really shut down penetration, and you can cover for that with a sound defensive plan somewhat, yet if you're not cutting off penetration you need to funnel the target to someone. We don't have that someone right now, which is why the Cuz as a defensive anchor comments are reason to be a little nervous.
However, culture change or not, Malone being a defensive wizard or not, we've put a ceiling on the level we can reach defensively with our off season moves. At a certain point it comes down to the defensive capabilities of the players on the floor, and it's not tough to assume we'll have more mismatches going in the opponents favor than ours unless we actually see more roster movement. Vasquez and either MLM/Thornton will be a mismatch favoring the opponent, and with what appears will be a Vasquez/MT backcourt to start the season we'll have an uphill battle every night. We still don't have a starting SF. Maybe Mbah will start and can have success defensively as a starting SF, but I'm not convinced he is a starting level SF in this league. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in this discussion though. Then looking at our 4's, whether it's PP or Landry starting that's another mismatch in favor the opponent. Cuz while I believe he can improve a considerable amount defensively is still below average and will struggle even more on that end until he gets a real defensive presence next to him, which PP and Landry aren't. Maybe JT starts at the 4 but I doubt it given we currently don't have a backup center and he's the only guy we have who can play there, and given PDA couldn't resist giving Landry a 4 yr deal I'd assume he likes stretch 4's and will prefer a PP/Landry PF rotation.
Of course the roster can change but as of now one can easily make the argument 4 of our 5 starters are below average defensively with the benefit of the doubt going to Mbah who might not even be a starter. We've heard a fair amount of talk about defense, but simply put our roster moves don't back that strategy thus far, it's actually the opposite where our backcourt defensively is worse than last year and our frontcourt is worse as well, as to this point we've seen Aldrich walk and the only big we've brought in is Landry, and in the backcourt we've seen Reke/Douglas leave and brought Vasquez and a rook in, a rook with above average defensive potential no doubt, but it's still an overall loss defensively to this point and I'd argue significant at that.
Even top defensive coaches like Doc and Thibs need top individual defenders to have success on that end. This talk of team defense and Malone bringing structure, while a positive only means so much if our FO isn't giving him the pieces to succeed on that end. It would mean a helluva lot more if the moves of our FO were in alignment with the apparent defensive philosophy.
Edit to add: There have been some very good teams when it comes to well coaches team defense and knowing and sticking to a plan, but most teams who excel when it comes to team defense defend on the philosophy of funneling the target to the shotblocker. You need very good individual perimeter defenders to really shut down penetration, and you can cover for that with a sound defensive plan somewhat, yet if you're not cutting off penetration you need to funnel the target to someone. We don't have that someone right now, which is why the Cuz as a defensive anchor comments are reason to be a little nervous.
Last edited:
I agree with most of what Rainmaker wrote above.
I'll go as far as saying this regime is not really serious about what they are saying/preaching about DEFENSE. Most moves/plans made so far do not make sense, except perhaps the Mbah signing. It is business as usual saying the correct thing and doing the opposite. Also, I think a lot of us are over rating this new coach by saying he is a "defensive coach".
Defensive coach?
Really?
And you let PDA let go of Tyreke for Vasquez, acquire Landry, and plan to make the no-defense Cousins your defensive anchor?
IMO, there is a big disconnect here and it does not look very encouraging with regards to where this team is going.
I'll go as far as saying this regime is not really serious about what they are saying/preaching about DEFENSE. Most moves/plans made so far do not make sense, except perhaps the Mbah signing. It is business as usual saying the correct thing and doing the opposite. Also, I think a lot of us are over rating this new coach by saying he is a "defensive coach".
Defensive coach?
Really?
And you let PDA let go of Tyreke for Vasquez, acquire Landry, and plan to make the no-defense Cousins your defensive anchor?
IMO, there is a big disconnect here and it does not look very encouraging with regards to where this team is going.
