I don't understand what you mean by flashy. I really don't. Magic Johnson was flashy. He would do the "no look" pass for no apparent reason other than flash. Then there's Pistol Pete who was flashy with a lot of behind the back stuff; then Jason Williams. All I see from Ball is fundamental basketball - putting the ball on the money when guys are going full speed. That's an incredible talent. If you want to call that flashy, I guess you could say Dominique Wilkins, Michael Jordan, LBJ, and David Thompson were flashy because they dunked too high and too much.
Summer League Impressions (other than Kings)
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You're right, Ball doesn't play a flashy game. He makes great passes but it isn't as if he's throwing a ton of behind the back passes or no looks. He's just got great vision and sense of timing and puts balls right on the money.
I don't like that his outside shots come almost exclusively off step but that's a side product of his funky mechanics and not a showboat thing.
Ball moves the ball rather than pounding the air out of it, routinely makes the right play, is sneaky around the hoop, rebounds well and encourages passing from his teammates.
I'm not sure what there is to dislike about his style of play other than his odd shot.
Yeah, I hate that he's a Laker and I've long since tired of his dad's childish marketing efforts/persona but I love Ball's approach to the game.
I don't like that his outside shots come almost exclusively off step but that's a side product of his funky mechanics and not a showboat thing.
Ball moves the ball rather than pounding the air out of it, routinely makes the right play, is sneaky around the hoop, rebounds well and encourages passing from his teammates.
I'm not sure what there is to dislike about his style of play other than his odd shot.
Yeah, I hate that he's a Laker and I've long since tired of his dad's childish marketing efforts/persona but I love Ball's approach to the game.
J-Will was a far better talent. Was a J-Will a superstar? Lonzo has major issues that did not show up in the box score but obvious to astute observer. He was playing against trash competition. His defense is terrible. His effort is not good. His defense is predicated on taking chances. He goes under every screen and gives the guard free reign. He may get away with that against the G-Leaguers. He is not going to get away with that against George Hill or Chris Paul. My thing on guys I don't like like Tatum and Lonzo is that if you make your shot you are going to be okay. He made his shot last night. Wide open and uncontested. And he got hot. Credit to him. And the lay-up and an one was a nice finish against a 6'1" defender. It was pick-up rec league garbage time basketball and he excelled.
Lonzo has an obvious knack for throw ahead passes a la Kevin Love. And Ricky Rubio. Is Ricky Rubio a superstar? To be a superstar you cannot have holes in your game. This guy is a bad defender (poor effort AND lateral mobility and physicality). He has weak on-one-one moves to breakdown a defender. He has no in between game (no floater, no pull-up jumper). He doesn't finish particularly strong at the rim. He doesn't draw contact. His shot is not trustworthy. These are ALL traits you have to have to be a star let alone superstar. Now is he going to overcome all these deficiencies and become the superstar you expect him to be. Well anything is possible, I suppose, after all, Papa G went for 17/13 last night.
But I would not bet on Lonzo Ball being anything more than a really good passer, a below average defender, and a spotty scorer. The traits are just not there in terms of hustle, competitiveness, and athleticism to equate into a superstar. You cannot be a superstar based on one skill (passing).
Lonzo has an obvious knack for throw ahead passes a la Kevin Love. And Ricky Rubio. Is Ricky Rubio a superstar? To be a superstar you cannot have holes in your game. This guy is a bad defender (poor effort AND lateral mobility and physicality). He has weak on-one-one moves to breakdown a defender. He has no in between game (no floater, no pull-up jumper). He doesn't finish particularly strong at the rim. He doesn't draw contact. His shot is not trustworthy. These are ALL traits you have to have to be a star let alone superstar. Now is he going to overcome all these deficiencies and become the superstar you expect him to be. Well anything is possible, I suppose, after all, Papa G went for 17/13 last night.
But I would not bet on Lonzo Ball being anything more than a really good passer, a below average defender, and a spotty scorer. The traits are just not there in terms of hustle, competitiveness, and athleticism to equate into a superstar. You cannot be a superstar based on one skill (passing).
There was always that chance. I wanted Fox at five. I felt like he was the best combination of filling a need at PG, possible star potential and low risk.
Smith was my choice at 5 if both Fox and Josh Jackson were off the board.
He was always top three in terms of talent and he sure looks good right now.
Of course, summer league is also ideal for his style of play so it's good to temper enthusiasm for him a bit for the moment, but I think at the very least he's a very good NBA PG, barring injury.
Smith was my choice at 5 if both Fox and Josh Jackson were off the board.
He was always top three in terms of talent and he sure looks good right now.
Of course, summer league is also ideal for his style of play so it's good to temper enthusiasm for him a bit for the moment, but I think at the very least he's a very good NBA PG, barring injury.
I hate rehashing the draft over and over again, but that's what I find myself constantly doing lol. I just wasn't a big fan of Fox as a prospect. Non-shooting PG that's score-first. DSJ can do everything Fox does on offense, but better. When you have any team that has a ball dominate non-shooting PG at play, you'll have to reshape the entire offense around them. It's much more easier to build around Damian Lillard than it is Ricky Rubio. Since we don't have 3pt shooting from the PG spot, we have to find it elsewhere. In Fox's limited SL play, the 3pt shot was not even a part of his game. Anytime he had the ball behind the 3pt line, you could tell he was ready for a down-hill attack. Compare this to what we saw of DSJ yesterday. When he's behind the 3pt line, he'll take a few spot dribbles and right then, you can't tell if he's deciding to pull up, pass, or attack(DSJ has a thing for passing the ball in ISOs). We didn't see that from Fox at all. When he's sizing up behind the 3pt line, we know 100% he's driving in or taking the mid-range.
I saw Fox as the higher risk PG. I just don't like his lack of a 3pt shot. On top of that, I don't know how he'll handle the physicality of the NBA. He only played in 2 SL games before he tweaked his ankles, then it happened again 2 games later. Not sure if I recall correctly, but during last night's game, the sideline reporter said Fox hurt his ankles a couple times in the past 2 weeks during practices. Fox needs to get stronger at only 170lbs. If you're having this many ankle issues in only 3 weeks of camp and SL, I think this could be of concern in a 82 game season. Just compare Fox's and DSJ's frame. They're both apparently 6'3, but Fox is only 170lbs, while DSJ is officially listed at 195lbs.
NBA floor spacing will benefit both players, but Fox's lack of 3pt shooting will hurt his team a lot more on offense than DSJ's. Fox's lack of 3pt shooting in the SL disappointed me a lot. Just the fact that he didn't even try to add it to his game during SL..a time where people experiment. I don't think anyone could rationally argue that Fox's 3pt shot isn't a big deal..because it is. He doesn't have one.
I saw Fox as the higher risk PG. I just don't like his lack of a 3pt shot. On top of that, I don't know how he'll handle the physicality of the NBA. He only played in 2 SL games before he tweaked his ankles, then it happened again 2 games later. Not sure if I recall correctly, but during last night's game, the sideline reporter said Fox hurt his ankles a couple times in the past 2 weeks during practices. Fox needs to get stronger at only 170lbs. If you're having this many ankle issues in only 3 weeks of camp and SL, I think this could be of concern in a 82 game season. Just compare Fox's and DSJ's frame. They're both apparently 6'3, but Fox is only 170lbs, while DSJ is officially listed at 195lbs.
NBA floor spacing will benefit both players, but Fox's lack of 3pt shooting will hurt his team a lot more on offense than DSJ's. Fox's lack of 3pt shooting in the SL disappointed me a lot. Just the fact that he didn't even try to add it to his game during SL..a time where people experiment. I don't think anyone could rationally argue that Fox's 3pt shot isn't a big deal..because it is. He doesn't have one.
Fox has said he hasn't really had to develop his 3 point shot because he could get where he wanted at any time. His for is good, he's going to be like John Wall in that coming into the league Wall also had to develop that shot.
I've said all along that Fox and Smith will be the best PGs from this draft. Not saying Ball or Fultz aren't good but all 4 of these guys are a bit different. I think where Fox can set himself apart is on the defensive side. I don't think the other guys come close to that side of the ball as Fox can be elite.
I've said all along that Fox and Smith will be the best PGs from this draft. Not saying Ball or Fultz aren't good but all 4 of these guys are a bit different. I think where Fox can set himself apart is on the defensive side. I don't think the other guys come close to that side of the ball as Fox can be elite.
I will wait a year or two before comparing the top PGs in this draft, but I will say that each one showcased what makes them special. I definitely think Fox held back on initiating his own offense in order to try to get others involved, but he definitely is quick and seems to understand the game very very well. I'm happy with what I have seen. Smith was my 2nd choice, but he will most likely always be better on the offensive side than Fox, it's what his entire game is based on.
I replied on this earlier...can't fault the Kings with going with the best defensive prospect at PG. I was for either of them, and yeah, Smith Jr was probably the better offensive player to begin with. In the NBA, he may eat it up and excel. He may be the best player out of this draft. It's looking possible.
I see more Conley Jr than Wall, but if Fox wants to be an All-Star instead of just a solid starter, he'll have to develop and improve his 3-pt shooting. You're right about the defense. Fox brings defense that the others won't be up to......I think you'll see Fox be something like a 15ppg/5rpg/6apg/1.7spg rookie - he will fill up the full stat sheet - maybe not stunning in any one facet (except possibly steals I"m thinking), but above average in all. If he improves 3s well, I see a Conley Jr 2nd coming. They have very similar games. But Fox has to prove and show it in the season.
Except for making quick decisions, not stopping the flow of the offense and not taking bad shots of the dribble that kill entire possessions.
I dont really get the hype he is getting. Yes, he has shown he can score the hell out of the ball. But I mean everyone that has watched him for more than 5 minutes at NC state knew that before, didnt they? Ive been saying the whole time that I expect him to give you 20/6 a night. He is a fantastic scorer. He has good vision. I still wouldnt hand my franchise over to him if I have the chance to take Fox instead. If you watch the tape there are still so many possesions where the ball moves well before, but as soon as he catches it the whole offense stalls, the ball sticks and he kills the flow of the offense because his decision-making is too slow. This is not winning basketball. Its why teams with Bledsoe or Kyrie as the best player will never win anything. They are exciting scorers but they dont elevate your offense.
I still belive he fell to far. Orlando really could have used a scoring PG. Now they have to figure out the Isaac-Gordon pairing. The Bulls picked Markannen over him. The Knicks took Ntilikina. These are the teams that should question their decision-making. But the Kings are completely fine with Fox.
We can maybe hope that in 2-3 years Fox will be able to shoot a bit. Hoping for him to develop it 3 weeks after the draft is completely unrealistic. If that was possible, why would there even be players that cant shoot?
I dont really get the hype he is getting. Yes, he has shown he can score the hell out of the ball. But I mean everyone that has watched him for more than 5 minutes at NC state knew that before, didnt they? Ive been saying the whole time that I expect him to give you 20/6 a night. He is a fantastic scorer. He has good vision. I still wouldnt hand my franchise over to him if I have the chance to take Fox instead. If you watch the tape there are still so many possesions where the ball moves well before, but as soon as he catches it the whole offense stalls, the ball sticks and he kills the flow of the offense because his decision-making is too slow. This is not winning basketball. Its why teams with Bledsoe or Kyrie as the best player will never win anything. They are exciting scorers but they dont elevate your offense.
I still belive he fell to far. Orlando really could have used a scoring PG. Now they have to figure out the Isaac-Gordon pairing. The Bulls picked Markannen over him. The Knicks took Ntilikina. These are the teams that should question their decision-making. But the Kings are completely fine with Fox.
We can maybe hope that in 2-3 years Fox will be able to shoot a bit. Hoping for him to develop it 3 weeks after the draft is completely unrealistic. If that was possible, why would there even be players that cant shoot?
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Way to early to tell. Tyreke Evans and Brandon Jennings were both better than Steph Curry their rookie years. And Steph was the four year college player who supposedly lacked upside. Gotta wait til the end of year three to start making definitive statements about who the better pro is.
That said if the draft were redone after summer league I fully believe the order these guys went in would be very different already. Workouts can only tell a team so much, summer league is a much better show case of these guys talents.
That said if the draft were redone after summer league I fully believe the order these guys went in would be very different already. Workouts can only tell a team so much, summer league is a much better show case of these guys talents.
6-20 FG, 2-10 3pt, 7 TO
Can't just post the good parts of the box score
Can't just post the good parts of the box score
Aaaaaall right. His shooting has been ruff, but even Steph somehow managed to shoot worse in his first SL, so there you go. Reason I don't bother talking about his shooting is A) it's largely expected from rooks, B) D'LoFG% never panned out and he's supposedly a shooter, C) Ingram's shooting numbers were putrid until about March, D) I'm not sure how much of this is rust, bad shot selection, rookie issues with the new arc, or bad form (maybe all of the above). Believe it or not, I don't think his FORM is the issue that truly meets the anti-hype I'm reading from every corner. It seems to me thus far that he shoots better out of movement than from stand-still. I don't think he's helped by shooting so many treys, either. I'd like more midrange pops, but those are endangered birds. He could either play it safe and go for drives all the time or try to bust out of a bad slump if that's what this is. I think he'd be better served to come down court in a semi-trot and pull up for long shots rather than shooting them from stand still. I'll be honest, I don't think he's ready for the NBA three yet in general, but you can't convince me, O' Sacramento Souljah, that he'd be better off pulling Rondos. Even if he continues to shoot low, I don't want him to develop a complex about missing that affects his willingness to be fluid in all dimensions. I'm prolly leaning towards not expecting him to shoot lights out this year, but I think he's FAR from a lost cause. Saying he's a lost cause is hot take crap. I hate hot takes.
Beyond all that, I'm REALLY not wanting to nitpick too much considering all the other stuff he's doing. Ingram (who looks physically heavier and who appears to be on course to panning out after a mostly dreadful rookie season) did little to nothing in the July games, in the October games, and then in the November to late Feb games. That was his progression. Don't get me started on D'Lousy who couldn't return a top 15 pick. That's the zeitgeist around Zo in LA. Forget the games, Lizard, just go by abilities. He has shown more abilities that mature vets have than Randle, Russell, and Ingram did in their first 1-2 full seasons. Maybe I shouldn't just stop at the stats, it's more than that. It's not too hard to see at very worst that Zo is an advanced level passer. Those three weren't advanced level ANYTHING. You can even have the shooting, too. I'm tellin ya, my Norcal Nephew, the knocks on his speed, first step, and overall D are grossly overplayed. He's a pretty intuitive team defender if not man-to-man. His first step is suitable. He's gonna get burned by speedy and athletic guards like Westbrook et al, but that's not exactly a crime.
We'll see what up. I don't know if ya boy Fox has beefs, but they'll meet soon enough and plenty at that. I'm already seein some Sixer fans at UnrealGM and media wondering if Fultz was head and shoulders ahead of Ball, Fox, and Smith.
Ball's shot mechanics are funky but at the release point his form is dead on, if a bit low. He'll hit shots.
But I doubt he'll ever have much of a midrange game unless he totally rebuilds his shot. Because he brings the ball across his face he really can't pull up when going right. And even when going left the majority of his shots come off stepbacks.
I said before the draft that the ideal team for Ball was the Sixers if Embiid & Simmons can stay healthy. Embiid can make up for Ball's issue containing quick guards and Balls low usage lets Simmons be the primary ball handler while adding playmaking, shooting, rebounding and infectious passing.
But I doubt he'll ever have much of a midrange game unless he totally rebuilds his shot. Because he brings the ball across his face he really can't pull up when going right. And even when going left the majority of his shots come off stepbacks.
I said before the draft that the ideal team for Ball was the Sixers if Embiid & Simmons can stay healthy. Embiid can make up for Ball's issue containing quick guards and Balls low usage lets Simmons be the primary ball handler while adding playmaking, shooting, rebounding and infectious passing.
If you watched DSJ on that NCST team, there was no one else that could consistently create their own offense. They forced him to be their entire offense. Compare this to Fox's team at Kentucky. Monk, BAM, and Briscoe. Or Lonzo's team at UCLA with Leaf, Alford, Welsch, Hamilton, etc. Those players had offenses that catered to their strengths. DSJ? Not really. I don't think he's a ball stopper. He's just a player who can slow down the offense with his ISOs.
It's really not his fault that NCST didn't push the pace as much as Kentucky did. So it's not that he wasn't a quick decision maker, more so of NCST running a much slower offense. Unfortunately, same thing will happen in the NBA too. Dallas will feature their offense around Harrison Barnes. Barnes is a very high usage and high ISO player. Automatically, their offense will run at a much slower pace.
Shooting is the most difficult thing for any player to learn. The 3pt shot just isn't part of his game right now. He's the worst 3pt shooting PG to come out of the draft since Ricky Rubio in 2009. That causes for some gigantic concerns.
It's really not his fault that NCST didn't push the pace as much as Kentucky did. So it's not that he wasn't a quick decision maker, more so of NCST running a much slower offense. Unfortunately, same thing will happen in the NBA too. Dallas will feature their offense around Harrison Barnes. Barnes is a very high usage and high ISO player. Automatically, their offense will run at a much slower pace.
Shooting is the most difficult thing for any player to learn. The 3pt shot just isn't part of his game right now. He's the worst 3pt shooting PG to come out of the draft since Ricky Rubio in 2009. That causes for some gigantic concerns.
I think Fox will have a really big hill to climb to develop his 3pt shot. I just wonder how quick the Kings will want him to add that shot. When you watch him play at Kentucky and in the SL, he dominates playing his way, but you can tell he didn't even care for the 3pter. Westbrook did the same thing starting his early career off, however, the era is much different now. In Westbrooks' 3rd year, he averages 21.9pts, but 3pters only made up 7.6% of his entire shots. This year, he averaged 31.6pts, and 3pters made up 30% of his shots.
I agree with you on the last part. Defensively is where Fox can set himself apart from other PGs.
I agree with you on the last part. Defensively is where Fox can set himself apart from other PGs.
His game reminds me of a better passing Casspi. However, he's slower, can't finish around the rim, and is just an OK shooter. If he were a better shooter, I think he'd make the NBA as backup SF. Right now, I don't think he's NBA caliber, but I could see him coming off the bench as a 5mpg chance of pace player for a bad team.
Marketing aside, he'd be a good player for a 2-way contract. I just don't think he'd accept that since he's the best player in China. He's actually their reigning MVP.
Marketing aside, he'd be a good player for a 2-way contract. I just don't think he'd accept that since he's the best player in China. He's actually their reigning MVP.
I mean I haven't been the biggest supporter of Ball as a prospect, and have wondered about his transition, but I can see a potential argument now about that 5/10 for 2 proposition ( even if we take Vlade's word that he would've taken Fox anyways).
Ball needs to play SG with an off ball defensive PG, but dude can run an entertaining offense
Ball needs to play SG with an off ball defensive PG, but dude can run an entertaining offense