Summer League Game 1 Quickie Grades

[Kingster]

Is Howard the only franchise center you can think of? No! He's not Dwight Howard. At least not defensively and probably never will be. But I think he'll be much better offensively than Howard. There's a difference between a franchise center and a HOF center. I would call Bogut a franchise center. Duncan would be a franchise center as well as a HOF player. Some people might consider Kaman a franchise center, and by todays standards he probably is. I don't put Perkins in the same class with those guys because he's mostly a defensive center. When I was comparing Cousins to Perkins I was comparing body types and size with comparable athleticism, but not necessarily skill sets. Obviously Perkins is mostly a defensive player and for now, Cousins is more of an offensive player.

What I find amusing is how people are making all these judgements after one game. A summer league game at that. And I'm not referring to you. I mean my god, I don't judge a player in college until I've seen him play at least 5 or 6 times. The least of my worries is that he suddenly becomes a 3 pt shooter. I watched him play in 24 games in college and I think I could count on both hands how many times Cousins took a jumpshot. I mean cut the kid a little slack for heavens sake. Isn't he allowed to have a little fun?

My main criticism is that he's obviously not in NBA shape yet. After he was on the floor for 7 or 8 minutes he started to slow down. He was late getting back in transition a few times. I also thought he got lost on defense a couple of times. But all those things are to be expected. I thought his man defense got better as the game went on. I thought he was tentative the first couple of times he guarded Monroe, but later in the game he was much better. To the best of my knowledge, I don't think Cousins and Monroe have ever faced each other in a game before. So it was a learning experience.

With regard to your first question, the guys I would think of in terms of "franchise center" would be Kareem, Wilt, Walton, Hakim, Shaq. Those kind of guys. They really did make the franchise. I'd put Howard in the second tier, at least right now. Duncan I always think of as a pf.

I think we are in agreement on many things about Cousins. It's just that we use different adjectives. I say he could be very good offensively, and a good one-on-one defensive player, though not in the same class as a Howard, Wilt, Kareem, Walton, Hakim, etc. You say he's going to be a franchise player, which I normally think of as HOF, not a Kaman or Bogut, for example. And we agree, he's got to get in better shape. He should be in good shape by the beginning of the season. Looking forward to it.

 

[NME]

With regard to your first question, the guys I would think of in terms of "franchise center" would be Kareem, Wilt, Walton, Hakim, Shaq. Those kind of guys. They really did make the franchise. I'd put Howard in the second tier, at least right now. Duncan I always think of as a pf.

You're thinking of Hall of Fame. A franchise player is simply one that you can build a good team around. By the standard usage of the term, there are a lot more franchise players than HoF players around, as its a lower bar.

 

[Kingsguy881]

No one cares about a Laker fan opinion but I laughed when I read this because I was going to post the same.

It is just one game but I agree mostly with Bricklayer. Offensively Cousins is going to be a scorer for you guys and at his size he should rebound well. Defensively he still has to show he can be a defensive anchor because if he cannot then he becomes more of a 4 instead of a 5. Which could hurt him in the league because while he is big for a 4 he isn't that quick for that position and quicker 4's could give him trouble.

You're right. Nobody cares what you have to say.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Does franchise center mean franchise player that's a center, or just your long term center?

 

[Gary]

It's a good thing to have sure, but it should not be done just for the sake of showing that you have it. It should be done within the right context for a low post player i.e. not as deep, and when defenders are stronger or are playing off you. He's a low post guy, that's what makes him so valuable.

Again, you seem to be making the same points over and over.. He is not the kind of player you are worried about him being.. No chance...

 

[bajaden]

Since there's been some emphasis put on shotblocking, or the lack of it. I decided to look around the league and see what the competition is in that regard. I think I have all the main centers in the league as of now and I have their career average listed first, followed by best they ever averaged in a year.

Mehmet Okur: 0.7 BPG career avg. 1.1 BPG - best single year.
Nenad Krstic: 0.8 BPG career avg. 1.1 BPG - best single year.
Robin Lopez: 0.9 BPG career avg. 1.0 BPG - best single year.
Andry Blatche: 0.9 BPG career avg. 1.4 BPG - best single year.
Nene Hilario: 0.9 BPG career avg. 1.3 BPG - best single year.
Andrea Bargnani: 1.0 BPG career avg. 1.4 BPG - best single year.
Al Jefferson: 1.3 BPG career avg. 1.7 BPG - best single year.
Joakim Noah: 1.3 BPG career avg. 1.6 BPG - best single year.
Andris Biedrins: 1.3 BPG career avg. 1.7 BPG - best single year.
Marc Gasol: 1.3 BPG career avg. 1.6 BPG - best single year.
Kendrick Perkins: 1.4 BPG career avg. 2.0 BPG - best single year.
Tyson Chandler: 1.4 BPG career avg. 1.8 BPG - best single year.
Roy Hibbert: 1.4 BPG career avg. 1.6 BPG - best single year.
Andrew Bogut: 1.4 BPG career avg. 2.5 BPG - best single year.(fifth year in league)
Chris Kaman: 1.4 BPG career avg. 2.8 BPG - best single year. (fifth year in league)
Eric Dampier: 1.5 BPG career avg. 2.3 BPG - best single year.
Andrew Bynum: 1.5 BPG career avg. 2.1 BPG - best single year.
Brendan Haywood: 1.5 BPG career avg. 2.5 BPG - best single year.
Emeka Okafor: 1.8 BPG career avg. 2.6 BPG - best single year.
Brook Lopez: 1.8 BPG career avg. 1.8 BPG - best single year.
Samuel Dalembert: 1.9 BPG career avg. 2.4 BPG - best single year.
Yao Ming: 1.9 BPG career avg. 2.0 BPG - best single year.
Dwight Howard: 2.1 BPG career avg. 2.9 BPG - best single year. (fifth year in league)
Tim Duncan: 2.3 BPG career avg. 2.9 BPG - best single year.
Shaquile O'Neal: 2.3 BPG career avg. 3.5 BPG - best single year.
Marcus Camby: 2.6 BPG career avg. 3.7 BPG - best single year. (second year in league)

As you can see the two best are Camby and Shaq. Two completely different body types.
When you look at all their careers, almost all became better shotblockers after a few years in the league. There are exceptions of course such as Camby and Shaq. Camby is one of those guys like Whiteside that just had great instincts for blocking shots. Shaq was a freak of nature. 7'2", 300 pounds with a great wingspan and was an explosive leaper with a great vertical for a guy that size. One of a kind. Tim Duncan on the other hand was a good athlete, but not a great athlete. He had good size but not great size. But he was one of the most fundamentaly sound centers to come out of college in a long time. He was just a very smart and skilled player.

So where do I see Cousins in all of this. He's not a great leaper. But with some more weight loss and getting in better shape, his vertical will improve. He has great footwork and very good lateral movement. He's also very strong for a guy thats never lifted weights till now. All that, with experience should translate into a good post defender. I don't think he'll ever be a classic shotblocker, but I think he can average 1.5 to 1.7 blocks a game once he learns the league and the players. He's a very smart player and picks things up quickly. It all depends on him. There's a lot of responsibility riding on him. I think he's going to be a very good to great player. He has the greatness in him. If he has the drive to match his words, then were in for a fun ride.

 

[Bricklayer]

Is Howard the only franchise center you can think of? No! He's not Dwight Howard. At least not defensively and probably never will be. But I think he'll be much better offensively than Howard. There's a difference between a franchise center and a HOF center. I would call Bogut a franchise center. Duncan would be a franchise center as well as a HOF player. Some people might consider Kaman a franchise center, and by todays standards he probably is. I don't put Perkins in the same class with those guys because he's mostly a defensive center. When I was comparing Cousins to Perkins I was comparing body types and size with comparable athleticism, but not necessarily skill sets. Obviously Perkins is mostly a defensive player and for now, Cousins is more of an offensive player.

What I find amusing is how people are making all these judgements after one game. A summer league game at that. And I'm not referring to you. I mean my god, I don't judge a player in college until I've seen him play at least 5 or 6 times. The least of my worries is that he suddenly becomes a 3 pt shooter. I watched him play in 24 games in college and I think I could count on both hands how many times Cousins took a jumpshot. I mean cut the kid a little slack for heavens sake. Isn't he allowed to have a little fun?

My main criticism is that he's obviously not in NBA shape yet. After he was on the floor for 7 or 8 minutes he started to slow down. He was late getting back in transition a few times. I also thought he got lost on defense a couple of times. But all those things are to be expected. I thought his man defense got better as the game went on. I thought he was tentative the first couple of times he guarded Monroe, but later in the game he was much better. To the best of my knowledge, I don't think Cousins and Monroe have ever faced each other in a game before. So it was a learning experience.

You cannot overrate the contributions shot blocking has to the definition of franchise center. Because a franchise center dominates on both ends. And no, acting likle a wussy little 200lb guard and trying to draw a charge is no substitute at all. A huge part of shotblocking is its intimidation value. There is no intimidation value to taking a charge. The very act is passive. In fact having to rely on such a chintzy tactic even puts your "franchise center" at increased risk of foul trouble.

Here are a list of franchise centers of recent vintage. Making them of not-so recent vintage isn't going to change anything either unless you think that Russel/Wilt/kareem is going to change anything:

Howard (shotblocker)
Yao (shotblocker)
Shaq (shotblocker)
Mourning (shotblocker)
Ewing (shotblocker)
Robinson (shotblocker)
Olajuwon (shotblocker)

if we want to be realistic about what Duncan is, he would be too. I'm leaving off other famous centers of the era icluding Big Ben and Deke.

Why does Kaman get no respect as a 20-10 guy? What were the Al Jefferson debates over? Who was the last franchise center who was not a shotblocker? Was Daugherty really a franchise guy? An All-Star yes, but really more a part of a compilation of talent, including bigs who could cover his defensive weaknesses. So who before that? Dave Cowens?

 

[Kingsguy881]

Where's Hawes on that list?

 

[Superman]

I would hope playing down on the low block would be fun.

It's a sad thing with this generation of big men, they all want to be guards.

In contrast, as a relatively little guy, I love getting down low and putting some post moves on a guy. Even though I belong outside.

 

[bajaden]

With regard to your first question, the guys I would think of in terms of "franchise center" would be Kareem, Wilt, Walton, Hakim, Shaq. Those kind of guys. They really did make the franchise. I'd put Howard in the second tier, at least right now. Duncan I always think of as a pf.

I think we are in agreement on many things about Cousins. It's just that we use different adjectives. I say he could be very good offensively, and a good one-on-one defensive player, though not in the same class as a Howard, Wilt, Kareem, Walton, Hakim, etc. You say he's going to be a franchise player, which I normally think of as HOF, not a Kaman or Bogut, for example. And we agree, he's got to get in better shape. He should be in good shape by the beginning of the season. Looking forward to it.

Fair enough! Were talking semantics here, but for the most part were in agreement. Cousins could possibly end up being a HOF center. But I'm not about to go out on that limb. At this point its way to early to say what the finished product will be. But to me a franchise player is one that you build around. He's a difference maker. Webber falls into that category. But I doubt he'll ever be in the HOF. So I guess its a subjective type of thing where no one is wrong.