State of the Kings Pre-trade Deadline Edition

Will Haliburton be our best player at some point?

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Dime Dropper said:
Source for what? It's openly accepted Vlade was allowed to step down rather than being fired. I honestly didn't even know there were people out there who thought otherwise.

The timeline absolutely does change it, btw. Vlade said he'd step down at a certain time and didn't. It's not exactly spilling the beans to say you're going to leave if you fail, is it? Given that you won't have the option of continuing if you do fail...

The reason Vlade was allowed to "step down" was exactly for people like you by the way, and I mean that with all due respect. If the history books show it, then it must be true. History books never lie, of course.
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The open acceptance to someone with connects to gather that information. Something openly accepted by anyone else doesn't mean much. So, spin: He stepped down, didn't get fired. Result: He stepped down, didn't get fired. Yet it's openly accepted he was fired? Well my point is if that's how Vivek did it it's weak. Plain weak. Nothing more. Just like this Luke news now, there is always going to be spin and I'm believing very little of it until proven out but when the result comes it's done at that point regardless of what got you there. If it were the continued doings of a cluster F of an owner you're in trouble and will likely continue to be so until something miraculous happens to their brain or they leave.
 
I didn't say it's openly accepted that he was fired. It's openly accepted that he was allowed to step down rather than being fired. He had no say in the matter, everybody knows that. There's really no need to dig deeper on this one. We can agree to disagree.
 
Vlade was one of the worst GMs in the past 20 years in the whole league. He never should have been hired with zero experience. His departure was a way for him to leave with as much dignity as possible. There is no reason to argue wether he was fired or if he stepped down because there isnt any universe where he would've been able to continue as a gm. He should be remembered as a great player but the more there are people to argue about his tenure as a gm, the more people will remember the horrible job he did in that role.
 
Gguod said:
Vlade was one of the worst GMs in the past 20 years in the whole league. He never should have been hired with zero experience. His departure was a way for him to leave with as much dignity as possible. There is no reason to argue wether he was fired or if he stepped down because there isnt any universe where he would've been able to continue as a gm. He should be remembered as a great player but the more there are people to argue about his tenure as a gm, the more people will remember the horrible job he did in that role.
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Except apparently the universe connected to one of the most reliable sources in the game? And for about 8 games when used right, you actually saw some of the talent evaluation come to fruition before being grossly mishandled again. And back to the point. Luke Walton is still your head coach in much the same way and for perhaps many of the same reasons. And the circle is complete. Lets go around it a few more times, what do ya say! haha.

In the end, this is a conversation about cyclical behavior from a particular owner.
 
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SacTownKid said:
Except apparently the universe connected to one of the most reliable sources in the game? And for about 8 games when used right, you actually saw some of the talent evaluation come to fruition before being grossly mishandled again.
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Yeah I'm not going to start beating a dead horse by discussing about Vlades tenure as a gm. If you think he was even adequate then good for you. My view (and probably the view of majority) is that overall he was horrible. Of cource Vivek deserves a lot of the blame by making that ridiculous hire.
 
SacTownKid said:
Except apparently the universe connected to one of the most reliable sources in the game? And for about 8 games when used right, you actually saw some of the talent evaluation come to fruition before being grossly mishandled again. And back to the point. Luke Walton is still your head coach in much the same way and for perhaps many of the same reasons. And the circle is complete. Lets go around it a few more times, what do ya say! haha.

In the end, this is a conversation about cyclical behavior from a particular owner.
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Vlade has already admitted that he overruled Vivek on his decision to draft Bagley over Luka and that decision alone negates any of the good decisions he made as a GM. We're talking about a first-ballot hall of famer, perennial All-Star, MVP candidate vs. a guy who maybe has a future as a bench big on a winning team if he can continue to bulk up and not completely embarrass himself on defense. The only argument is how much that decision is going to cost this franchise in lost value over the course of the next 15 years. 100 million is where the argument starts and it goes way way up from there.

There's also no way to paint the decision to hire Luke Walton for 4 years without so much as an interview as a Vivek decision. He was clearly Vlade's guy, he said as much himself, and he's been shockingly bad since the first day he suited up and roamed the sideline in Sacramento. The state of the Kings right now is that they've got to figure out what to do with Hield and Bagley considering our chances of being anything better than awful on defense are slim so long as they continue to be rotation fixtures. And on top of that, we're stuck with a coach who is so clearly in over his head that karate chopping the clipboard was probably more effective than any 4th quarter plays he's drawn up on it this year.

I'm not going to don the purple glasses and pretend like everything is okay. This is Vlade's legacy as a GM. I'm sure he's a wonderful guy to have a drink with and reminisce about the good old days but the stink of his mess is going to dominate this team for at least another couple years unless Fox, Haliburton, and Barnes find an even higher level and/or McNair defies franchise history and brings in a coach who'll compare favorably to Rick Adelman's long shadow. It's entirely possible to envision a scenario where we rise out of the ashes and start earning back some of the respect we've lost. I see that when I watch Fox dominate quarters with ruthless efficiency and Haliburton play the passing lanes like a 10 year vet at the ripe old age of 21 (happy belated birthday to Tyrese btw!) But clicking our heels together and hoping is not what's going to get us there.
 
Albatros said:
Fox and Halli and the only keepers.

Blow the rest up. Figuratively of course.
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Honestly, neither part of that - "only keepers" & "blow the rest up" - makes any real sense to me.

Sure, it'd be awesome to build around Fox and Ty. Love those guys. But the Kings should be willing to discuss any/every dang player on this team. Would *hate* to see Ty go, but given what he's shown as a player AND as a personality (imagine the marketing possibilities for a larger-city franchise), and the fact that he'll remain VERY affordable for a while, his *value* to others, as to the Kings, has got to be considerable.

"Blow the rest up"? Again, of course everyone else should also be on the table. But the truth is that, our disappointments notwithstanding, the personnel cupboard is FAR from bare. Come what may, my biggest regret from this season is likely to be that we'll never get to see what this same squad could have done with a really good coach and a real offseason. This collection of players is definitely deficient in some areas, BBIQ above all. But they have most of what's needed to succeed, and a lot of hard workers, including most/all of their top players. I don't know who's gonna be available next year, but a really good staff and head guy would transform this team. Not saying they *should* be battling Utah for the top seed, but the Jazz are a good example of what it looks like to maximize your talent; the Kings decidedly are not.
 
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Been reading and listening to the same argument for 10+ years. If we just had a SF. If we just had a SG. If we just trade, draft or sign x player. There are no players on this team failing the franchise and there is no savior out there yet to be drafted. The organization has to have a solid foundation or whoever passes through that locker room is destined to underachieve.
 
Livinthedream said:
Been reading and listening to the same argument for 10+ years. If we just had a SF. If we just had a SG. If we just trade, draft or sign x player. There are no players on this team failing the franchise and there is no savior out there yet to be drafted. The organization has to have a solid foundation or whoever passes through that locker room is destined to underachieve.
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Luka would have been a fine foundation. Vlade tho.
 
Gguod said:
Yeah I'm not going to start beating a dead horse by discussing about Vlades tenure as a gm. If you think he was even adequate then good for you. My view (and probably the view of majority) is that overall he was horrible. Of cource Vivek deserves a lot of the blame by making that ridiculous hire.
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I don't think an overall assessment restricts ones abilities to call out some of the positives on their own for what they were. Overall it was a failure, no one can debate that.
 
hrdboild said:
Vlade has already admitted that he overruled Vivek on his decision to draft Bagley over Luka and that decision alone negates any of the good decisions he made as a GM. We're talking about a first-ballot hall of famer, perennial All-Star, MVP candidate vs. a guy who maybe has a future as a bench big on a winning team if he can continue to bulk up and not completely embarrass himself on defense. The only argument is how much that decision is going to cost this franchise in lost value over the course of the next 15 years. 100 million is where the argument starts and it goes way way up from there.

There's also no way to paint the decision to hire Luke Walton for 4 years without so much as an interview as a Vivek decision. He was clearly Vlade's guy, he said as much himself, and he's been shockingly bad since the first day he suited up and roamed the sideline in Sacramento. The state of the Kings right now is that they've got to figure out what to do with Hield and Bagley considering our chances of being anything better than awful on defense are slim so long as they continue to be rotation fixtures. And on top of that, we're stuck with a coach who is so clearly in over his head that karate chopping the clipboard was probably more effective than any 4th quarter plays he's drawn up on it this year.

I'm not going to don the purple glasses and pretend like everything is okay. This is Vlade's legacy as a GM. I'm sure he's a wonderful guy to have a drink with and reminisce about the good old days but the stink of his mess is going to dominate this team for at least another couple years unless Fox, Haliburton, and Barnes find an even higher level and/or McNair defies franchise history and brings in a coach who'll compare favorably to Rick Adelman's long shadow. It's entirely possible to envision a scenario where we rise out of the ashes and start earning back some of the respect we've lost. I see that when I watch Fox dominate quarters with ruthless efficiency and Haliburton play the passing lanes like a 10 year vet at the ripe old age of 21 (happy belated birthday to Tyrese btw!) But clicking our heels together and hoping is not what's going to get us there.
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I wasn't debating who drafted Luka or what was involved. Amick says Vlade was asked to stay on board and relinquish some power, he said no thanks. I'll take that for what it is until Vlade or someone connected says otherwise.
 
I see the headlines of Cojo possible being traded. Well, the Kings FO is certainly working the media. Now the question is while working the phones how many suddenly disconnected calls is Monte getting. He's got to work himself back up from that Bogdan L he took prior to the season so it should be interesting.
 
SacTownKid said:
I see the headlines of Cojo possible being traded. Well, the Kings FO is certainly working the media. Now the question is while working the phones how many suddenly disconnected calls is Monte getting. He's got to work himself back up from that Bogdan L he took prior to the season so it should be interesting.
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Combining rumors.

Bagley has been talked about, minimal interest around the league.
Cojo available
Bjeclica available with some teams knowingly interested.
Barnes to Boston
Lakers interested in Whiteside and he is probably available.

Haven't heard much about Buddy out recently.
 
SacTownKid said:
And what makes you assume the Kings would have used him right? He could basically be in Buddy's role for all we know. And with Luke Walton as his HC I almost don't even doubt it for one minute, haha.
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My point, exactly. Luka is probably the kind of uber-talent even a bad coach and terrible schemes can't squash, but, IMO, *THIS* coach and *THESE" players are sadly underachieving. I'm not suggesting - no one's suggesting - the Kings don't need more top-end talent in the mix. But they need more than that.
 
SacTownKid said:
And what makes you assume the Kings would have used him right? He could basically be in Buddy's role for all we know. And with Luke Walton as his HC I almost don't even doubt it for one minute, haha.
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Dude is a transcendent talent. Usage matters. Talent matters more.
 
SacTownKid said:
And what makes you assume the Kings would have used him right? He could basically be in Buddy's role for all we know. And with Luke Walton as his HC I almost don't even doubt it for one minute, haha.
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Dave Joerger would likely still be coach, if Doncic had been drafted. As much as some may not like the sound of that
 
Iced Espresso said:
Combining rumors.

Bagley has been talked about, minimal interest around the league.
Cojo available
Bjeclica available with some teams knowingly interested.
Barnes to Boston
Lakers interested in Whiteside and he is probably available.

Haven't heard much about Buddy out recently.
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Dallas rumors for Barnes too.
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
Dave Joerger would likely still be coach, if Doncic had been drafted. As much as some may not like the sound of that
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Dave Joerger isn't a coach now for a reason. He was better than Vlades boy which the Kings are still stuck with but these are both examples of coaches on the line of being on the outs. Although I think Dave could have another shot if teams get desperate enough. As soon as Luke hit the market Vlade jumped for joy and wasted no time in handing the Kings the anchor that is he.
 
SacTownKid said:
I wasn't debating who drafted Luka or what was involved. Amick says Vlade was asked to stay on board and relinquish some power, he said no thanks. I'll take that for what it is until Vlade or someone connected says otherwise.
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I realize most of what I was saying wasn't in direct response to your post. I was mostly taking issue with this statement:

"And for about 8 games when used right, you actually saw some of the talent evaluation come to fruition before being grossly mishandled again."

I read that as an insinuation that Vlade's talent evaluation would be vindicated with a better coach and system to which I have to strongly disagree. The good and bad are both on full display this year. The offense has rebounded in a major way but the defense has moved so far in the other direction that we're still a last place team. We have a few parts that are performing well this season. Barnes is a pro's pro and Fox is an elite talent. Holmes is a hard worker who's energy is appreciated. Vlade had nothing to do with drafting Haliburton or bringing in Whiteside though and I just don't think what remains of Vlade's squad amounts to much without some major help. Not to mention who is grossly mishandling that talent? The coach he handpicked? They had a chance to prove themselves last year in the bubble and they fast-planted hard. Even with a rookie of the year candidate added in the mix we're not good enough to beat the playoff teams unless those teams are missing star players. Even then it's dicey.

I would also point out that asking your lead decision maker to accept a position where they have no power to make decisions anymore is a firing in all but name.
 
Iced Espresso said:
Interesting.

I think they have pick obligations out to the Knicks. Not sure what they have we'd want.
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All of Dallas' first round picks through 2026 are encumbered. And since you can only trade picks 7 years out, only their 2027 pick would be available.

It's really tough to see what a Dallas trade for Barnes would look like. I have my doubts they would offer more than James Johnson, Josh Green and their 2027 unprotected, and I'm not sure that's very tempting to me. It would be different if we were losing Barnes, but we have him locked up for two more years. In exchange for ending salary, an athlete who's not much of a basketball player, and a questionable pick way out in the future? Not very appealing. It's a panic trade on our part, and we have no need to panic.
 
hrdboild said:
I realize most of what I was saying wasn't in direct response to your post. I was mostly taking issue with this statement:

"And for about 8 games when used right, you actually saw some of the talent evaluation come to fruition before being grossly mishandled again."

I read that as an insinuation that Vlade's talent evaluation would be vindicated with a better coach and system to which I have to strongly disagree. The good and bad are both on full display this year. The offense has rebounded in a major way but the defense has moved so far in the other direction that we're still a last place team. We have a few parts that are performing well this season. Barnes is a pro's pro and Fox is an elite talent. Holmes is a hard worker who's energy is appreciated. Vlade had nothing to do with drafting Haliburton or bringing in Whiteside though and I just don't think what remains of Vlade's squad amounts to much without some major help. Not to mention who is grossly mishandling that talent? The coach he handpicked? They had a chance to prove themselves last year in the bubble and they fast-planted hard. Even with a rookie of the year candidate added in the mix we're not good enough to beat the playoff teams unless those teams are missing star players. Even then it's dicey.

I would also point out that asking your lead decision maker to accept a position where they have no power to make decisions anymore is a firing in all but name.
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Maybe not over the long haul, but go back to the game threads. More than a few of us are calling out the systemic issues and the changes when things seem to come together. There were people here who had Fox labeled as a dud until he was used more to his strengths in a spread pick and roll offense. Which happens to suit the majority of the teams talent. Usage matters and when the results have been so closely tied to that it's fairly obvious they aren't even giving them much of a chance to succeed. My point is just because Vlade made some bad moves, maybe even plenty more than good, you still can't ignore the good ones he did make. Some of which are at this point a still undecided project. And back to my point, it's a cowardly firing if that was it because what if he had accepted? Realistically it's probably very difficult to fire people like Vlade and Luke. They seem like people it's hard to dislike and you want to be around them. That is until you need them to win the brain battle with other NBA franchises. lol.
 
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