Spencer Hawes - Big White Stiff?

[cfechter]

I wasn't sure where to put this question/comment and whether or not it belonged in another thread, so I cluttered up the section with a new one.

Anyone else in here think Spencer Hawes is the next "Big White Stiff", a la, Cherokee Parks, Christian Laetner, Todd Fuller, Robert Swift, etc., etc., etc.?

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

I wasn't sure where to put this question/comment and whether or not it belonged in another thread, so I cluttered up the section with a new one.

Anyone else in here think Spencer Hawes is the next "Big White Stiff", a la, Cherokee Parks, Christian Laetner, Todd Fuller, Robert Swift, etc., etc., etc.?

Why yes, yes I do think that...but...I think we're going to be stuck with him come tomorrow afternoon, unfortunately...*sigh*

edit: I think Fuller is a good comparison, and that's not really someone you'd want to be compared with, IMO...that guy was a disgusting player...true suckage.

 

[cfechter]

Why yes, yes I do think that...but...I think we're going to be stuck with him come tomorrow afternoon, unfortunately...*sigh*

edit: I think Fuller is a good comparison, and that's not really someone you'd want to be compared with, IMO...that guy was a disgusting player...true suckage.

Anytime I see a 7 foot white guy higher up on the draft boards it makes me think "Joe Kleine" all over again. The only "7 foot white guy high draft pick" to have any kind of impact over the past number of years is Chris Kaman, and he even had a terrible year last year.

 

[SacTownKid]

I wouldn't call Robert Swift a stiff quite yet. This guy still has some serious potential. I think Hawes is too skilled to be a "stiff".

 

[funkykingston]

Why yes, yes I do think that...but...I think we're going to be stuck with him come tomorrow afternoon, unfortunately...*sigh*

edit: I think Fuller is a good comparison, and that's not really someone you'd want to be compared with, IMO...that guy was a disgusting player...true suckage.

Oh come on. Todd Fuller wasn't that bad of a choice. I mean, the Warriors were picking 11th in that draft. It isn't as if they passed up Kobe Bryant, Peja Stojakovic, Steve Nash and Jermaine O'Neal. . .

What's that? Those four were drafted 13th, 14th, 15th and 17th? Hmm.

I think Hawes will be a solid rotation player and have a decent NBA career. On a good team I think he can be a good contributor on a Kaman/Mihm level. That said, the Kings don't need rotation players, and they certainly don't need any more soft bigs.

 

[uptempo-kings]

the great white hype

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Laettner doesn't belong on this list: the guy might have been overrated, but he averaged better than 16/8 through his first six years (at which point, he suffered what was basically a career-ending injury), and 15/7 though his first nine... Those aren't exactly "big white stiff" numbers.

Hell, even after the injury, he still managed to average nearly 13 and 7 for his career; none of those other guys that you categorized as "stiffs" ever had a career season as good as Laettner's worst.

 

[Kingzrool]

Hawes has potential to be a legitimate big. I would welcome him on the Kings. Everyone is always dissing GP for going for tallent instead of needs. This pick would be for needs as opposed to tallent. I hope for YI, but I will be happy with Hawes.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Anytime I see a 7 foot white guy higher up on the draft boards it makes me think "Joe Kleine" all over again. The only "7 foot white guy high draft pick" to have any kind of impact over the past number of years is Chris Kaman, and he even had a terrible year last year.

Anytime I see a 7'0 white guy I think of all the great 7 foot white centers of the past...I think of the great Les Jepsen...ah yes, another great Kings center.

 

[cfechter]

Laettner doesn't belong on this list: the guy might have been overrated, but he averaged better than 16/8 through his first six years (at which point, he suffered what was basically a career-ending injury), and 15/7 though his first nine... Those aren't exactly "big white stiff" numbers.

Hell, even after the injury, he still managed to average nearly 13 and 7 for his career; none of those other guys that you categorized as "stiffs" ever had a career season as good as Laettner's worst.

Fair enough, but you're missing the point of the argument. For a #3 pick (which I think Laettner was) he was nothing compared to what everyone thought he would be.

I just see Spencer Hawes fitting in perfectly with the "7 foot white guy" club, which is chaired by none other than Brad Lohaus (another 7 foot King)

He averaged 6.4 rebounds in 29 minutes per game this year, which is one rebound per 4.53 minutes - even if he carried over those numbers to the NBA, that would be an average of 7.7 boards in 35 minutes - but keep in mind he's bigger and more athletic than everyone in college. I also don't particularly care for the number of blocks per game (1.7) for someone bigger and more athletic than everyone else.

If he were more athletic these two key stats would be much better. I don't think the future bodes well for him in the NBA where very few athletes who aren't good athletes survive.

Case in point - one of our brighter points for the future is Justin Williams (how bright, I have no idea) - his senior year, he averaged 11 boards in 30 minutes, and over 5 blocks. Granted, he was playing in a lesser conference against lesser players than Hawes, but those numbers still speak volumes over Hawes in terms of what the Kings needs are.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I think that you may perhaps have an overly fond and not entirely realistic view of the #3 pick. Here are the guys taken with the third pick since the inception of the draft lottery:

Benoit Benjamin
Chris Washburn
Dennis Hopson
Charles Smith
Sean Elliott
Chris Jackson
Billy Owens
Christian Laettner
Anfernee Hardaway
Grant Hill
Jerry Stackhouse
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Chauncey Billups
Raef LaFrentz
Baron Davis
Darius Miles
Pau Gasol
Mike Dunleavy
Carmelo Anthony
Ben Gordon
Deron Williams
Adam Morrison

Up until the year that he was drafted, I think you could make the case that Laettner was the best player ever taken at #3 in the lottery era. Even today, he's probably still in the top ten.

 

[Rain man]

I wasn't sure where to put this question/comment and whether or not it belonged in another thread, so I cluttered up the section with a new one.

Anyone else in here think Spencer Hawes is the next "Big White Stiff", a la, Cherokee Parks, Christian Laetner, Todd Fuller, Robert Swift, etc., etc., etc.?

Unbelievable...

Try watching the guy play before you jump to any conclusions. Simply because he is white, unathletic, and 7 feet tall, he must be bad? It means that he is a lumbering unskilled pivot???

Rik Smits, Vlade, Brad Miller, Dirk, Andreas Biedrins, and Chris Kaman are all 7 foot white guys, pretty unathletic, so they must be stiffs too. Yeah, there have been plenty of 7 foot busts, but there have also been successes. That is true with any position. By your logic, Corey Brewer, Acie Law, and Al Thorton are all going to be busts because several players of similar size and position have failed.

Hawes is not going to be All-NBA, but he will be a solid starter. If the Kings drafted him, he would immediately become our most skilled post player in the past 10 years BY FAR. Don't beleive me- watch the guy play. His arsenal of post moves is AWESOME. He averaged 15 points 7 boards, shot 54% and had 2 blocks per game as a freshman, playing in one of the toughest conferences in 28 minutes per game.

Likely comparison- I view him as very similar to a young Reef (but bigger). A softie who can get 20/8 on any night, and was very effective in the post. He needs to be on the right team, because he has deficiencies, but he is no scrub or stiff...

He has a completely different style from Brad, he is much much more skilled than Fuller, and much more polish than Swift. He isn't my first choice, and I think there are teams where he would be a much better fit, but I would be happy to have him at #10.

 

[tjobrien]

I think that you may perhaps have an overly fond and not entirely realistic view of the #3 pick. Here are the guys taken with the third pick since the inception of the draft lottery:

Benoit Benjamin
Chris Washburn
Dennis Hopson
Charles Smith
Sean Elliott
Chris Jackson
Billy Owens
Christian Laettner
Anfernee Hardaway
Grant Hill
Jerry Stackhouse
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Chauncey Billups
Raef LaFrentz
Baron Davis
Darius Miles
Pau Gasol
Mike Dunleavy
Carmelo Anthony
Ben Gordon
Deron Williams
Adam Morrison

Up until the year that he was drafted, I think you could make the case that Laettner was the best player ever taken at #3 in the lottery era. Even today, he's probably still in the top ten.

You could make that case, but my case for Sean Elliot would blow you out of the water. True, though, because of his stellar college career, Laettner is often miscast as a "bust" in the NBA, when he actually had a long and productive, if quiet, career.

And, for the record, I would put Laettner 11th. My top 10 (in chronological order):

Sean Elliot, Penny Hardaway, Hill, Stackhouse, Billups, Baron Davis, Gasol, Melo, Gordon, Deron Williams. --- and then Laettner squeezes in JUST ahead of Chris Jackson/Rauf for 11th. And that was a tough call.

 

[kingzzzfan4ever]

Have to see the guy in action in the NBA before making a judgement.

 

[Rain man]

Anytime I see a 7 foot white guy higher up on the draft boards it makes me think "Joe Kleine" all over again.

That type of short-sighted thinking is the very reason the Bucks traded Dirk Nowitzki for Robert Traylor. Everyone knew that Euros were soft and didn't live up to their potential. Draft a Euro and get an uncompetitive, soft, slow player. But if you draft the big time college star that can throw it down with authority it is all good.

It's that same thinking that led people (myself included) to want John Wallace over Peja. College superstars are ALWAYS better than unheard of foreigners. Just ask Trajon Langdon, William Avery, Ron Mercer...

It's the same reason why people drafted Todd Fuller over Kobe and Jermiane O'Neal, and why Garnett slid. The established college star is better than the wild card.

The point is that if you buy into stereotypes rather than evaluating the ACTUAL player you are always gonna be on the short end of the stick. The first teams to ingore the foreign sterotype were rewarded big time (Dallas, Sacramento, san Antonio). The first teams to ignore the high school stereotype were also rewarded. Yeah, for every Tony Parker there is Beno Udrih, for every Brad Miller there is Todd Fuller, but if you close the book on players without even evaluating them, simply because how they measure size and skin wise, you are closing the door on lets of potential talent.

Hawes might be the next Joe Klien (though if you need a white 7 footer to compare him to I think Rik Smits is more fitting), but to make that comparison because he is 7 feet tall and white is silly. Make the comparison on skill and work ethic, and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Have to see the guy in action in the NBA before making a judgement.

Nah, I guess being white is all they need to know about him apparently.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I don't necessarily think that it's fair to rate Gordon or Williams ahead of Laettner just based on three years. Even though they may both turn out to be better, Laettner had numbers that were at least as good, if not better, than both of them after two and three years, respectively.

 

[Spike]

That type of short-sighted thinking is the very reason the Bucks traded Dirk Nowitzki for Robert Traylor.

The point is that if you buy into stereotypes rather than evaluating the ACTUAL player you are always gonna be on the short end of the stick. The first teams to ingore the foreign sterotype were rewarded big time (Dallas, Sacramento, san Antonio). The first teams to ignore the high school stereotype were also rewarded. Yeah, for every Tony Parker there is Beno Udrih, for every Brad Miller there is Todd Fuller, but if you close the book on players without even evaluating them, simply because how they measure size and skin wise, you are closing the door on lets of potential talent.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Well done.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't necessarily think that it's fair to rate Gordon or Williams ahead of Laettner just based on three years. Even though they may both turn out to be better, Laettner had numbers that were at least as good, if not better, than both of them after two and three years, respectively.

Williams is a no brainer -- that guy is a future star, and is betetr now than Laetnner ever was.

Gordon...eh. Never been a fan of the 6'2" OG set. Career could go the way of the Mahmouf. Minus the twitches and flag disrespecting. So I guess it depends on how long he lasts. Which still puts Laetnner (who I've never figured out why you like so much? Joe Smith too?) barely hanging in the Top 10 there. Adequate player, but pretty disappointing return on a #3.

 

[Rockmeister]

I looked at Hawes stats from 2006-2007 and it was 14.7 points, 6.2 rebounds and 1.8 blocks. These stats don't impress me for a 7'1" center.

 

[Gary]

I have seen a lot of people defending a guy like Hawes...

Look at it this way.. RECENTLY there have been a lot more big white stiffs, than big white studs. I think this has scared a lot of GMs away from drafting one.

Myself, I am a HUGE fan of Jason Smith. He is a "big white stiff" as well. There are people who have never even read a scouting report on him who just saw a mugshot saying he is unathletic because he is white. Not true at all. As for Hawes... I don't think I would draft a guy like Hawes if I had the 10th pick, and he was available. I myself am afraid of him being so unathletic.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Hawes does have good feet speed and mobility, I wouldn't call him a stiff at all.

 

[Bricklayer]

Hawes does have good feet speed and mobility, I wouldn't call him a stiff at all.

Mmm...not from what I have seen. I would be comfortable calling him a stiff, without entirely writing him off. The rebounding though is a terrible terrible concern. Without it, there is no high end. He's like old Reef or old Cartwright or some such. Almost a post playign roleplayer who gives you one thing while you lose ground everywhere else. He could be as stiff as he wanted to be if he were a clever post player who cleaned up the glass. But right now, he's only shown the one thing. I thnk people are over fascinated by athleticism, seeing as there often seems to be some sort of inverse relationship between being an athlete and having a brain. But when the lack of athleticism actually showes up in a tangible fashion as it seems it might with Hawes, that's a problem.

 

[nbrans]

^Yeah, I agree, the rebounding is seriously scary. And sure, he has some pretty post moves, but until he develops some more strength NBA players are going to just push him right off the block. I think Hawes is probably my least favorite pick at the 10.

 

[Bricklayer]

^Yeah, I agree, the rebounding is seriously scary. And sure, he has some pretty post moves, but until he develops some more strength NBA players are going to just push him right off the block. I think Hawes is probably my least favorite pick at the 10.

Says he's developing a sky hook -- I can see him being a quite effective scorere. He's got he height and moves that you don't see in any league very often.

But how much would you be giving up to get that scoring from him? You might have to feed him every time down the floor just to get value out of him. Without a constant stream of scoring touches, I'm not sure how he can help. Or even avoid hurting.

 

[tjobrien]

I looked at Hawes stats from 2006-2007 and it was 14.7 points, 6.2 rebounds and 1.8 blocks. These stats don't impress me for a 7'1" center.

Not a fair assessment because I believe he had mono, or some other viral infection, to start the season. He got off to a very slow start, and by the time he made it to form, the season was practically over. This, of course, is the problem with looking at stats and not watching the games.

 

[Rain man]

I looked at Hawes stats from 2006-2007 and it was 14.7 points, 6.2 rebounds and 1.8 blocks. These stats don't impress me for a 7'1" center.

1) I understand the concern, buta few notes on the stats. He played the first 9 games of a 33 game season off the bench. He was sick, and played poorly.

2) Once he got into the starting lineup, it took Washington about 4-5 games to realize the break-neck style they like to play didn't fit their best player. Sort of like the Warriors trying to adjust to putting Elton Brand in the offense. Hawes was fairly bad those games.

3) He averaged 28 minutes per game over the season. Again with a lot of those with him sick or with no semblance of a team offense.

4) Once they actually created a half court offense his numbers were very good- something like 18/8/2 in like 30 minutes over the last 15 games or so (which consequently is when they turned their season around and almost made the tourney after a disasterous start).

5) His rebounding numbers took a hit because he played alongside John Brockman- a rebounding machine. Brockman led the Pac-10 in boards I think. There are only so many boards to go around, and when you are next to a pitbull, your numbers suffer. He was always present on the glass, and got several big, later rebounds for the Huskies during the season. I could see him averaging 8-9 a game.

6) I still think the best comparison is a taller version/better shotblocker of Reef in his prime. He has a very polished post game, and could easily average 17/8 with 2 blocks in the right system. Like Reef, he would be a hinderance on the other end.

I don't know if he is the answer for us, but the guy is a good player.

 

[Ryle]

I looked at Hawes stats from 2006-2007 and it was 14.7 points, 6.2 rebounds and 1.8 blocks. These stats don't impress me for a 7'1" center.

Considering the fact that at this time last year he had just graduated from High School and those are stats from his Freshman year in the Pac-10 I think it's pretty good.

 

[nbrans]

In my opinion, there's really no explaining away that rebounding. It's not good.

 

[Vlade4GM]

In my opinion, there's really no explaining away that rebounding. It's not good.

Well he did get sick in the middle of the season and played next to Jon Koncak who is a really good rebounder. His rebounding is subpar, but I would expect at least 8 rpg once he develops.