Some baseball stuff from a Kings thread...

[thatguy]

I don't know if anyone here knows who Bill Stoneman is, but he's the GM of the Angels. He's as conservative as a GM gets, he's always asking for too much in return for players, so do you know what happens? He never pulls off big deals. Always small ones. If you get the "we tried" excuse too often it's really about the lack of guts it takes to take a risk and actually get something done.

I'm not really going to harp on the differences between a MLB GM and a NBA GM, but you brought up Stoneman. The guy who signed Gary Matthews, Jr. to a 5-year/$50 million deal. The Gary Matthews, Jr. who had a completely aberrant statistical season and turns 33 this year. Not the kind of stones (or guts) I'm looking for in a GM.

Edit: Now that I look at what you wrote again, I'm not sure if you are suggesting Stoneman is a good GM or not. So, yeah...

 

[Vlade4GM]

I'm not really going to harp on the differences between a MLB GM and a NBA GM, but you brought up Stoneman. The guy who signed Gary Matthews, Jr. to a 5-year/$50 million deal. The Gary Matthews, Jr. who had a completely aberrant statistical season and turns 33 this year. Not the kind of stones (or guts) I'm looking for in a GM.

Edit: Now that I look at what you wrote again, I'm not sure if you are suggesting Stoneman is a good GM or not. So, yeah...

He has his strong points and his weak points. I'd say he's middle of the pack in baseball. The Matthews signing was so incredibly horrible, but 50 million isn't much in today's market. I'm mainly referencing trades. He doesn't really have a big problem spending Moreno's money.

 

[Superman]

He has his strong points and his weak points. I'd say he's middle of the pack in baseball. The Matthews signing was so incredibly horrible, but 50 million isn't much in today's market. I'm mainly referencing trades. He doesn't really have a big problem spending Moreno's money.

I wouldn't say the Matthews signing was horrible, but it wasn't what we Angels fans were looking for. I have to give Moreno and Stoneman the benefit of the doubt this offseason. They went after Soriano, got outbid, and tried to do the best they could to add some good hitters. Not necessarily power hitters, but good hitters. Matthews has improved our lead-off hitting tremendously, and if Shea Hillenbrand gets it together, he'd be a good addition as well.

However, Stoneman won't trade anyone, ever. At least that's the way it seems. If the Angels make a midseason trade this season that impacts the lineup, I'll be incredibly surprised.

At least they've stockpiled the pitching. Save for two or three bad outings, the pitching staff has been phenomenal so far this season.

Oh, sorry. This is supposed to be about the Kings. I'm done now. Carry on.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I wouldn't say the Matthews signing was horrible, but it wasn't what we Angels fans were looking for. I have to give Moreno and Stoneman the benefit of the doubt this offseason. They went after Soriano, got outbid, and tried to do the best they could to add some good hitters. Not necessarily power hitters, but good hitters. Matthews has improved our lead-off hitting tremendously, and if Shea Hillenbrand gets it together, he'd be a good addition as well.

However, Stoneman won't trade anyone, ever. At least that's the way it seems. If the Angels make a midseason trade this season that impacts the lineup, I'll be incredibly surprised.

At least they've stockpiled the pitching. Save for two or three bad outings, the pitching staff has been phenomenal so far this season.

Oh, sorry. This is supposed to be about the Kings. I'm done now. Carry on.

Well Stoneman does a great job pitching wise and scouting wise. When it comes to offense though, he's a complete dolt and the results in runs scored for the angels every year reflect that. All the statistical evidence shows Matthews was a fluke and not only that they sign him (a 32 year old) to a 5 year deal to play CF (his defense is so overrated just because of the occasional highlight catch). I'm upset that he even went after Soriano, talk about another abberation year. Cubs fans are going to lose it once they find out he isn't the player he was last year but the one he's been his whole career i.e. a fast power hitter who can't get on base. To Stoneman's credit though, he was prepared to go after Aramis Ramirez big time, that would've been a good signing. It wasn't his fault the idiot decided to stay in Chicago.

hmm..this is way off topic. Sign Iavaroni!!!

 

[Superman]

Well Stoneman does a great job pitching wise and scouting wise. When it comes to offense though, he's a complete dolt and the results in runs scored for the angels every year reflect that. All the statistical evidence shows Matthews was a fluke and not only that they sign him (a 32 year old) to a 5 year deal to play CF (his defense is so overrated just because of the occasional highlight catch). I'm upset that he even went after Soriano, talk about another abberation year. Cubs fans are going to lose it once they find out he isn't the player he was last year but the one he's been his whole career i.e. a fast power hitter who can't get on base. To Stoneman's credit though, he was prepared to go after Aramis Ramirez big time, that would've been a good signing. It wasn't his fault the idiot decided to stay in Chicago.

hmm..this is way off topic. Sign Iavaroni!!!

I have to disagree with you about Soriano. His on base percentage isn't phenomenal, but put him behind Vlad and you create a 3/4 situation eerily reminescent of the Red Sox with Ortiz and Ramirez, only exception being that both Vlad and Soriano bat right-handed. Soriano's arm is pretty good, he covers a lot of ground, and he's good for 40 stolen bases pretty much every year.

Aramis Ramirez would have been great to have. Too bad we couldn't get him. Made a run at Paul Konerko last year, and almost had him. That would have been ideal offensively, but Aramis Ramirez would have taken care of the third base situation, making Figgins and Izturiz expendable, since they pretty much duplicate each other anyways.

Sorry. Last one.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I have to disagree with you about Soriano. His on base percentage isn't phenomenal, but put him behind Vlad and you create a 3/4 situation eerily reminescent of the Red Sox with Ortiz and Ramirez, only exception being that both Vlad and Soriano bat right-handed. Soriano's arm is pretty good, he covers a lot of ground, and he's good for 40 stolen bases pretty much every year.

Aramis Ramirez would have been great to have. Too bad we couldn't get him. Made a run at Paul Konerko last year, and almost had him. That would have been ideal offensively, but Aramis Ramirez would have taken care of the third base situation, making Figgins and Izturiz expendable, since they pretty much duplicate each other anyways.

Sorry. Last one.

Well we got our own thread now.

While I'm not trying to say Soriano wouldn't help just because of his power, he's not even close to being worth that kind of money and for all we know he'd end up just being a left fielder. A left fielder making that kind of money better be Manny and Soriano is not that, he's a good power hitter but nothing more than that and certainly not worth 17 million a year. Also the angels can't keep ignoring their OBP problems and expect to get come away with an offense worth the money they spend on it. In soriano's case the sb's are rather irrelevant, we have no problem stealing bases and if anything we focus on that too much rather than just getting on base. He'd come back down to his texas numbers if he signed with the angels.

I wasn't too keen on Konerko for two reasons. one being that we had Morales and Kotchman, two being I wasn't completely sold on Konerko's numbers because us cellular is a bit of a homerun inducing ballpark. I was wrong about point two, but still right about point one and I think when it's said and done with Kotchman we'll be glad Konerko turned the angels offer down.

The one Stoneman really screwed up on was not going hard after Beltran. The money and years got way too rich for his blood even early in the bidding process. Now Beltran's contract looks like a bargain the way the market is now.

 

[Superman]

Well we got our own thread now.

While I'm not trying to say Soriano wouldn't help just because of his power, he's not even close to being worth that kind of money and for all we know he'd end up just being a left fielder. A left fielder making that kind of money better be Manny and Soriano is not that, he's a good power hitter but nothing more than that and certainly not worth 17 million a year. Also the angels can't keep ignoring their OBP problems and expect to get come away with an offense worth the money they spend on it. In soriano's case the sb's are rather irrelevant, we have no problem stealing bases and if anything we focus on that too much rather than just getting on base. He'd come back down to his texas numbers if he signed with the angels.

How much more patient do you think Orlando Cabrera and Vlad would be if they had a bonafide 3-4-5 lineup like the other contenders in the AL? Almost every good team in baseball has a better 3-4-5 than the Angels. Having another big bat in the lineup almost automatically increases the OBP of the players ahead of him. So if you put Soriano at 4 behind Vlad, then you have an aggressive, powerful hitter to dissuade you from pitching around Vlad. And then you have Garrett Anderson batting fifth, and he has an opportunity to bat with runners on, as opposed to coming up with the bases empty as he so often has to. He's already an extremely patient hitter with a history of driving in runs; he'd be even better at the tail end of a really good 3-4-5.

I think OBP goes up with the arrival of another 30-40 HR hitter to protect Vlad.

I do think he's getting a bit too much money, seeing as how he'll probably wind up being a left fielder (although he'd be playing center field for the Angels). Ideally, he'd be at second base, where he has golden glove abilities. Anyhow, that's probably the reason the Angels backed off and let the Cubs give him $146 million. We already have a second baseman, and he comes a lot cheaper.

I wasn't too keen on Konerko for two reasons. one being that we had Morales and Kotchman, two being I wasn't completely sold on Konerko's numbers because us cellular is a bit of a homerun inducing ballpark. I was wrong about point two, but still right about point one and I think when it's said and done with Kotchman we'll be glad Konerko turned the angels offer down.

That's the thing about the Angels, though. They hold on too tightly to their prospects (we could have gotten something for Dallas McPherson a couple years ago, now he's valueless). Morales and Kotchman hadn't any played Major League ball (unless I'm mistaken) when the Angels were pursuing Konerko. Kotchman is doing okay, but Konerko brings the same dynamic at the plate that Soriano does, just without the baserunning.

But that's why Aramis Ramirez would have been the guy to snag. Takes care of third base, freeing us to trade either Figgins or Izturis for whatever we can get from them, and use whoever's left as a utility player. And we still get a major upgrade in the lineup.

The one Stoneman really screwed up on was not going hard after Beltran. The money and years got way too rich for his blood even early in the bidding process. Now Beltran's contract looks like a bargain the way the market is now.

Beltran would have given us the same thing as Soriano, just at $50 million less. And he's a year younger. This is starting to depress me. Especially when I have to watch the Angels get shut out by the A's at least four times a year.

 

[Vlade4GM]

How much more patient do you think Orlando Cabrera and Vlad would be if they had a bonafide 3-4-5 lineup like the other contenders in the AL? Almost every good team in baseball has a better 3-4-5 than the Angels. Having another big bat in the lineup almost automatically increases the OBP of the players ahead of him. So if you put Soriano at 4 behind Vlad, then you have an aggressive, powerful hitter to dissuade you from pitching around Vlad. And then you have Garrett Anderson batting fifth, and he has an opportunity to bat with runners on, as opposed to coming up with the bases empty as he so often has to. He's already an extremely patient hitter with a history of driving in runs; he'd be even better at the tail end of a really good 3-4-5.

I think OBP goes up with the arrival of another 30-40 HR hitter to protect Vlad.

I do think he's getting a bit too much money, seeing as how he'll probably wind up being a left fielder (although he'd be playing center field for the Angels). Ideally, he'd be at second base, where he has golden glove abilities. Anyhow, that's probably the reason the Angels backed off and let the Cubs give him $146 million. We already have a second baseman, and he comes a lot cheaper.



That's the thing about the Angels, though. They hold on too tightly to their prospects (we could have gotten something for Dallas McPherson a couple years ago, now he's valueless). Morales and Kotchman hadn't any played Major League ball (unless I'm mistaken) when the Angels were pursuing Konerko. Kotchman is doing okay, but Konerko brings the same dynamic at the plate that Soriano does, just without the baserunning.

But that's why Aramis Ramirez would have been the guy to snag. Takes care of third base, freeing us to trade either Figgins or Izturis for whatever we can get from them, and use whoever's left as a utility player. And we still get a major upgrade in the lineup.



Beltran would have given us the same thing as Soriano, just at $50 million less. And he's a year younger. This is starting to depress me. Especially when I have to watch the Angels get shut out by the A's at least four times a year.

Garret Anderson an extremely patient hitter? I'm sorry, but unfortunetly he's the exact opposite of that. He averages only 31 walks a season in his career and a .326 obp. He's not a patient hitter, he's a free swinger. Always has been.

I have never seen any evidence to suggest that who bats in front of and behind a player changes their obp or walk totals. Sounds great in theory, but I've never seen that happen in reality. Vlad, Cabrera, Anderson, and Soriano have never been big walkers and always been free swingers. They're not going to change based on who is batting before and after them. Cabrera has been hitting in front of Vlad for almost his entire career and he's never been a big walker and has a very poor career obp. Soriano has been very poor at getting on base his entire career and he's hit in front of and behind some of the best AL offenses over his career, first year in the weaker NL and in his contract year then he blows up. My money is on that being an abberation. He's a good power hitter, but he's not the kind of hitter that will strike fear in the hearts of pitchers where they will change the way they pitch to Vlad. If I'm a pitcher I pitcher around Vlad because Soriano's career .325 obp doesn't exactly strike fear in my heart compared to Vlad's .391. As far as Soriano's defense, he's an extremely poor defensive second baseman. As far as being a centerfielder well I haven't paid much attention to his play this year so far, but at the time he had never played even one inning in CF so kind of hard to just put him there without knowing what you're getting.

Morales had just been signed as an international free agent and Kotchman had been one of the best minor league hitters and the top angel prospect for a long time and he just came off of a good stretch in the majors. It's just common sense that you don't sign a big money deal for a position you have depth at.

Beltran was a big blunder. Especially when you look at it in hindsight and how much we were willing to spend on Ramirez and Soriano. They turned the money they could've spent on Beltran or Glaus into Steve Finley and Orlando Cabrera.

Anyways, it's been really cool talking angels baseball on a kings forum. Never thought that would happen

 

[Superman]

Garret Anderson an extremely patient hitter? I'm sorry, but unfortunetly he's the exact opposite of that. He averages only 31 walks a season in his career and a .326 obp. He's not a patient hitter, he's a free swinger. Always has been.

When I say patient, I mean he looks at a lot of pitches, especially early in the count. I can't remember him swinging at the first pitch, almost ever.

I have never seen any evidence to suggest that who bats in front of and behind a player changes their obp or walk totals. Sounds great in theory, but I've never seen that happen in reality. Vlad, Cabrera, Anderson, and Soriano have never been big walkers and always been free swingers. They're not going to change based on who is batting before and after them. Cabrera has been hitting in front of Vlad for almost his entire career and he's never been a big walker and has a very poor career obp. Soriano has been very poor at getting on base his entire career and he's hit in front of and behind some of the best AL offenses over his career, first year in the weaker NL and in his contract year then he blows up. My money is on that being an abberation. He's a good power hitter, but he's not the kind of hitter that will strike fear in the hearts of pitchers where they will change the way they pitch to Vlad. If I'm a pitcher I pitcher around Vlad because Soriano's career .325 obp doesn't exactly strike fear in my heart compared to Vlad's .391.

I don't mean to say that Soriano is going to keep Vlad or OC from swinging like they do, but that they'll get more good pitches. I have no doubt, after watching many Angel games so far this season, that if they had another 35-45 HR hitter in the lineup, the 1-2-3 guys would get on base more than they do. That's why all the teams in the AL with better 3-4-5 spots than the Angels have a better shot at winning the World Series, as long as their pitching holds up. Soriano wouldn't have been my first choice, but he'd have improved the offense noticeably if we'd been able to sign him.

As far as Soriano's defense, he's an extremely poor defensive second baseman. As far as being a centerfielder well I haven't paid much attention to his play this year so far, but at the time he had never played even one inning in CF so kind of hard to just put him there without knowing what you're getting.

Meh; 300 put-outs a year with just about 20 errors (when playing exclusively at 2B) isn't that bad. Bring those errors down and he'd be a Golden Glover, easy.

Regarding centerfield, you know he can cover the territory and you know he has an arm, so it's not that much of an experiment. And he played left field all last season, didn't he? He has enough talent to change to center.

Morales had just been signed as an international free agent and Kotchman had been one of the best minor league hitters and the top angel prospect for a long time and he just came off of a good stretch in the majors. It's just common sense that you don't sign a big money deal for a position you have depth at.

I'd rather have Paul Konerko than either of them. If Kotchman winds up being a big time player the way some seem to think he will be, then I'm fine with it. But when you look at the way the Angels struggled to put up runs last year while Kotch was out with the kissing disease, it's a shame we couldn't bolster the lineup immediately and move Kotchman to third when the time came for him to play everyday. Or leave him at first and have Konerko DH, instead of Shea Hillenbrand.

Beltran was a big blunder. Especially when you look at it in hindsight and how much we were willing to spend on Ramirez and Soriano. They turned the money they could've spent on Beltran or Glaus into Steve Finley and Orlando Cabrera.

Yeah. OC is working out at short defensively, and he puts up runs. But he's no Beltran. Steve Finley got that deal from the Angels because he hit that grand slam in the final game of the Dodgers season - against the Giants, I believe - to send them to the playoffs. I thought he'd work out pretty well, but he never got into any kind of a rythym. Blame that on the superior pitching in the AL.

Anyways, it's been really cool talking angels baseball on a kings forum. Never thought that would happen

Yeah me either. Do you know of any good Angels forums?

 

[VF21]

Anyways, it's been really cool talking angels baseball on a kings forum. Never thought that would happen

Hey, that's why we have the General forum.