Should the Kings blow it up and retool?

[SacTownKid]

I feel like the goal when blowing it up is to essentially get what they have now (young talent with good depth And financial flexibility going fwd). I don’t think blowing it up is the answer. Team needs to just start playing better.

I still think the Kings are better positioned to package for a star than rebuild. Vlade has varying contract lengths, base salary levels, and positional depth to work with to make a variety of deals work within the cap rules.

 

[twslam07]

Also in the Celtics big man rotation you have Robert Williams and Grant Williams. Both are young guys that need minutes to grow, both currently have a roll on the team. Rob Will is only in his second year and Grant is a rookie. I can't imagine they want to give up developing these guys for a slight upgrade while giving away assets

Players can get better without getting playing time. Those two things don't go hand in hand. Does it help? Yeah it can (and in other cases it can hurt), but it's not as black & white as you're making it sound.

Also, Boston is right in the middle of championship discussions right now. Sacrificing the playing time of a couple of your young guys for players who help more today (and thus help you get closer to getting a title) seems like a small price to pay (especially for two guys that only make up 9% of the team's minutes this year).

 

[twslam07]

I still think the Kings are better positioned to package for a star than rebuild. Vlade has varying contract lengths, base salary levels, and positional depth to work with to make a variety of deals work within the cap rules.

We're not good trading partners for teams that are looking to move a star.

If a team is moving their star, they are more than likely rebuilding. Guys like Hield (27), Bogdan (27), Barnes (27), Bjelica (31), & Holmes (26) are not going to be attractive to them. Fox (22), Bagley (20), & future picks is what they are going to want.

The issue becomes that if we move Fox & Bagley for a star, we would be left with 1 star and nobody else with the potential to become a star player (thus we would top out as a fringe playoff team & never be a serious threat to compete). The only way this works is if you ship out Hield, Bogdan, Barnes, Bjelica, & Holmes for young assets & then send those young assets with Bagley or Fox for a star, but that would require 3-4 teams to be involved which makes the situation very unlikely to happen.

 

[CelticsFan]

Players can get better without getting playing time. Those two things don't go hand in hand. Does it help? Yeah it can (and in other cases it can hurt), but it's not as black & white as you're making it sound.

Also, Boston is right in the middle of championship discussions right now. Sacrificing the playing time of a couple of your young guys for players who help more today (and thus help you get closer to getting a title) seems like a small price to pay (especially for two guys that only make up 9% of the team's minutes this year).

IMO Holmes is a nice player but not a player that will put a team over the top. I'm sorry but it's my opinion, I don't think he's much of an upgrade over Theis.

 

[ESP47]

It could very well not result in a player as good as Holmes, you're right, but it could also result in a player better than Holmes. You never know.

You also need to consider the production per $ argument as well. If Holmes demands an 8 figure salary in the summer of 2021 (~$45 mil over 3 years) vs. the late 1st in the 2020 draft, you're talking about a $13 mil difference in salary between that rookie scale & Holmes. That extra $13 mil has value as well (e.g., salary dump trades for future assets).

You also need to consider that there is no guarantee that Holmes resigns with us. He's a UFA. He could easily walk for nothing, and if you are of the mindset that you're trying to rebuild (which it seems like you're in favor of), do you really think if he was offered $15 mil/year from the Kings vs. a playoff team that he'd choose the Kings? It's possible but he'll be 28 years old at that point, and I'm sure he would like to be a part of a winning team (not a rebuilding team).

You also need to consider the fact that keeping Holmes probably impacts our record more than any other player on the team right now. So by keeping him, you're not only missing out on a late 1st rounder, missing out on an extra ~$13 mil in cap space to use on salary dump trades later (if we can actually resign him which is a big IF), but you're also likely making our own 2020 (and 2021) 1st round pick less valuable. People like to say trading Cousins got us Fox because it tanked our record. It's a similar argument but likely not on the same scale as Cousins.

You also mentioned "If he demanded an 8 figure contract, then I'd pay him because we're just going to go out and sign another Dedmon with those 8 figures." What makes you think I would be going out & signing players like Dedmon in this rebuild? Well I actually might sign a guy like Dedmon, but it would be for a 1 year deal only if there weren't any more salary dump trades to be made.

My opinion is based on how we should operate. Not how I think Vlade will & does operate. The quote above by no means should be an argument used against my point of view.

I get what you're saying. If they go in full tank mode then I'm all for it but they could also tank by playing Giles or Bagley ahead of Holmes and then use Holmes again when they turn over the roster and attempt to compete. But you're right that there's no guarantees that he will stay.

I know you personally aren't going to sign Dedmon because you aren't the GM. I'd rather talk realistically about what might possibly happen with the team rather than just live in a total fantasy land where anything is possible. I'm just thinking ok if we go with your plan and get this pick and that pick and then free up X amount of dollars, what would the team actually be able to do with that and would it be more than what they gave up to get it? That's what I'm after. I know the trades wont go down exactly as you wrote them up but it's somewhat realistic to think that similar scenarios could arise with different teams and different assets.

 

[miltonap]

If I'm the Kings I would

-bench hield immediately, you need to prove it dude, if you can't shoot you're a net negative on the floor
-start Bogie
-bench Bagley, don't care if you were the #2 pick, don't care if your dad is Lavar Ball 2.0, you're a negative right now too, keep studying the game, improve your defense, and if you're good enough to start, prove it, you're going to get minutes regardless right now the rest is just ego, accountability first
-start Bjeli and Holmes again
-play Giles if he deserves it
-play Ariza if he deserves it
-play Justin James more
-play Yogi situationally if the team needs speed and offense, he's a tough dude
-Keep implementing half court offense and defense, Luke Walton is right, this is super important you gotta think long term can't just run all the time you would get squashed in the playoffs
-when Fox is in, RUN, hes the fastest player in the league, take advantage, running and learning sets can co-exist
-tell Buddy to shut his mouth to the media, culture culture culture, keeps things in house, you're a team on and off the court
-trade Dedmon for some Pringles
-ensure the training staff is the latest and greatest and using the latest and greatest (they might be doing this I just have no knowledge but everyone is injured all the time)
-sign Bogie to a deal with games played incentives, as far as im concerned, you cant just force a dude to not play for his home country, but you can offer him incentives in hopes that he takes care of his body more, be it games played or some efficiency stat. Healthy Bogie>Hield hands down
-our draft picks have mainly sucked, are our scouts doing a good job ?
-Harrison Barnes is a net neutral out there, if we can get a young wing with upside for him might have to think about it, if not keep him for now
-sign Holmes long term, long him up lock him up (get it)
-fix the Giles situation, just seems unprofessional

This is what I would do right now.

 

[Kingster]

Bogs, Hield, and Bjelica should be trade bait. Dedmond as well. If you can get better trading them, do it. If not, status quo.

 

[Gguod]

It looks like its time to bury this season and salvage whatever we can.

Trade away Dedmonds contract, even if its for a shorter bad deal but atm Deadmonds contract is negative value so just get him off the books. Whatever you can get from him is just a plus.

Make a decision on Bogdan now. Be a good gm, use your relationships/connections and figure out what type of offers hes getting in the free agency. If the price is too high for you, trade him immediately. His value is relatively high atm and you could get even a 1st for him (at least if we take back some bad money). The worst possible scenarios are that we wont trade him and he walks or either we match an idiotically large offer. Dont do either of those.

If any other vet gets you a 1st rounder, take that deal. Holmes and Bjelly are probably the two players that contribute most to winning and I would hate to lose them. Even so, we wont be competitive this year, we wont be competitive next year either most likely so plan according to that timeline. Holmes and Bjelly will just give you some empty wins and will become expensive once we would be starting to compete. Dont trade them for nothing but if you get offers for a 1st rounder you have to take it.

Buddy and Barnes combined will make almost 50mil next year and atm those are both bad contracts. If anyone accepts to give us anything significant for them, we should take it.

Of course I would also love a good competent gm to handle these things plus the future assets we would get. Just add draft capital and cap flexibilty until you are actually ready to be competitive

 

[jellyfish]

Kings need to trade Bjelica and Bogi at the least. Blow it up, also dumping Buddy/Barnes contracts would be great as well.

 

[twslam07]

It looks like its time to bury this season and salvage whatever we can.

Trade away Dedmonds contract, even if its for a shorter bad deal but atm Deadmonds contract is negative value so just get him off the books. Whatever you can get from him is just a plus.

Make a decision on Bogdan now. Be a good gm, use your relationships/connections and figure out what type of offers hes getting in the free agency. If the price is too high for you, trade him immediately. His value is relatively high atm and you could get even a 1st for him (at least if we take back some bad money). The worst possible scenarios are that we wont trade him and he walks or either we match an idiotically large offer. Dont do either of those.

If any other vet gets you a 1st rounder, take that deal. Holmes and Bjelly are probably the two players that contribute most to winning and I would hate to lose them. Even so, we wont be competitive this year, we wont be competitive next year either most likely so plan according to that timeline. Holmes and Bjelly will just give you some empty wins and will become expensive once we would be starting to compete. Dont trade them for nothing but if you get offers for a 1st rounder you have to take it.

Buddy and Barnes combined will make almost 50mil next year and atm those are both bad contracts. If anyone accepts to give us anything significant for them, we should take it.

Of course I would also love a good competent gm to handle these things plus the future assets we would get. Just add draft capital and cap flexibilty until you are actually ready to be competitive

I think your opinion is practically a clone of mine with maybe the exception of Dedmond. I'm not giving him up if I have to add value (which I would fully expect we would have to do). You may be of the same thought, but I couldn't tell that from your post.

 

[The_Jamal]

It looks like its time to bury this season and salvage whatever we can.

Trade away Dedmonds contract, even if its for a shorter bad deal but atm Deadmonds contract is negative value so just get him off the books. Whatever you can get from him is just a plus.

Make a decision on Bogdan now. Be a good gm, use your relationships/connections and figure out what type of offers hes getting in the free agency. If the price is too high for you, trade him immediately. His value is relatively high atm and you could get even a 1st for him (at least if we take back some bad money). The worst possible scenarios are that we wont trade him and he walks or either we match an idiotically large offer. Dont do either of those.

If any other vet gets you a 1st rounder, take that deal. Holmes and Bjelly are probably the two players that contribute most to winning and I would hate to lose them. Even so, we wont be competitive this year, we wont be competitive next year either most likely so plan according to that timeline. Holmes and Bjelly will just give you some empty wins and will become expensive once we would be starting to compete. Dont trade them for nothing but if you get offers for a 1st rounder you have to take it.

Buddy and Barnes combined will make almost 50mil next year and atm those are both bad contracts. If anyone accepts to give us anything significant for them, we should take it.

Of course I would also love a good competent gm to handle these things plus the future assets we would get. Just add draft capital and cap flexibilty until you are actually ready to be competitive

Think the only spot I differ here is I think Holmes is core moving forward. He's the perfect new-age C that compliments our starting PG in transition and as a quality PnR partner. Mega efficient in limited opportunities, Protects the rim, ability to hedge out onto the perimeter from the 5 spot (super underrated skill-set), solid-enough on the glass. Only 26 and I would call it a "young 26" with how little mileage he's had in his 4 year career thus far.

I'm usually not big into the "culture-setters", but I think Holmes falls into this category too. Dude just absolutely works his butt off when he's on the floor and that kind of play is infectious for the other guys on the court, but sets a standard that everyone should be working to live up to. Especially if you're planning on a quick reset, you want guys like Holmes setting the example for young guys to live up to.

Curious where you and @twslam07 are on Bagley. Interested in flipping him in the right deal? (First round pick, young player type deal).

 

[Joshoua]

Yes in the offseason when players become available we need to make a move get high IQ players in here.

Trade Bogie at the deadline to Milwaukee for Indiana’s 1st round pick and salary fillers
Off-season

Trade Hield, Ariza and this years 1st for Aaron Gordon and Aminu

Trade Bagley and Joseph for Myles Turner

Trade Barnes and a 1st (Pacers 1st) for Gary Harris

We’d bank on Fox becoming a star with Gordon blossoming into an even better player than he is playing his rightful position PF not SF. Turn Bagley into a DPOY candidate whose only 3 years older in Turner who would get more offensive opportunities here as well.

 

[itzcoatl]

It’s hard to say because we just haven’t seen much of Bagley this year. He is still looking pretty raw at the moment. But I guess if playoffs are looking out of reach at about all star time I’d be looking to make some moves.

 

[Gguod]

I think your opinion is practically a clone of mine with maybe the exception of Dedmond. I'm not giving him up if I have to add value (which I would fully expect we would have to do). You may be of the same thought, but I couldn't tell that from your post.

Yeah we agree fully, if you have to add value to trade Dedmond, dont do it. Wait for him to become an expiring to trade him, then its easier to trade him either as a part of salary dump where we take a worse contract and draft capital or just as a expiring to expiring deal where we get something like a 2nd.

Curious where you and @twslam07 are on Bagley. Interested in flipping him in the right deal? (First round pick, young player type deal).

For Bagley, his value is so low atm that its probably not a good time to sell considering how extremely valuable asset we used on him. His value should increase once he gets healthy and gets huge minutes after we are out of playoff race. For the right offer though I would be willing to trade of course but I would say the earliest you can get anything good enough for him via trade is after this season.

 

[twslam07]

Trade Bogie at the deadline to Milwaukee for Indiana’s 1st round pick and salary fillers

What's the salary filler? MIL fans are very vocal about how important Ilyasova is to there rotation.

Trade Hield, Ariza and this years 1st for Aaron Gordon and Aminu

This year's 1st could end up being pretty valuable. It's also a bit of an odd trade as you're making ORL older with Hield/Ariza but then giving them a young asset at the same time. It seems a bit contradicting in nature. ORL also has Fournier & Ross at SG which makes Hield a little (dare I say) pointless? Not sure it's the right fit as a trade.

Trade Bagley and Joseph for Myles Turner

Not sure about the fit between Bagley & Sabonis. Bagley needs someone like Turner next to him ideally. Sabonis isn't the best floor spacer and isn't the best rim protector either. Not sure if Indiana would go for this. Perhaps they would look to move Sabonis for Bagley instead.

Trade Barnes and a 1st (Pacers 1st) for Gary Harris

Seems reasonable if DEN can retain Beasley for a good price, but it's dependent on getting the IND 1st which comes back to the question of who is the salary filler?

 

[twslam07]

Think the only spot I differ here is I think Holmes is core moving forward. He's the perfect new-age C that compliments our starting PG in transition and as a quality PnR partner. Mega efficient in limited opportunities, Protects the rim, ability to hedge out onto the perimeter from the 5 spot (super underrated skill-set), solid-enough on the glass. Only 26 and I would call it a "young 26" with how little mileage he's had in his 4 year career thus far.

I'm usually not big into the "culture-setters", but I think Holmes falls into this category too. Dude just absolutely works his butt off when he's on the floor and that kind of play is infectious for the other guys on the court, but sets a standard that everyone should be working to live up to. Especially if you're planning on a quick reset, you want guys like Holmes setting the example for young guys to live up to.

Curious where you and @twslam07 are on Bagley. Interested in flipping him in the right deal? (First round pick, young player type deal).

Look if we sold off Hield, Bogdan, Barnes, & Bjelica for picks/assets and went into a rebuild while keeping Holmes. I wouldn't be overly upset. I just think it makes more sense to move him in a rebuild vs. keeping a 26 year old C who will likely be making 8 figures in 1.5 years. I've stated my reasons above why we should move him (not the right timeline for a rebuiding team, no bird rights, no guarantee he resigns w/ a rebuilding team, using cap space on a veteran instead of keeping it flexible for salary dump deals, impacting the value of our own 1st round pick due to him helping us win more games, etc.)

As for Bagley, we should definitely not trade him right now. His value is likely at his lowest. He's also a #2 in his 2nd year and we'd be entering a rebuild. He may not hold the same value as the #2 pick right now (and maybe never again), but he's still the type of young asset we're looking to collect (not trade away) in a rebuild.

 

[SacTownKid]

We're not good trading partners for teams that are looking to move a star.

If a team is moving their star, they are more than likely rebuilding. Guys like Hield (27), Bogdan (27), Barnes (27), Bjelica (31), & Holmes (26) are not going to be attractive to them. Fox (22), Bagley (20), & future picks is what they are going to want.

The issue becomes that if we move Fox & Bagley for a star, we would be left with 1 star and nobody else with the potential to become a star player (thus we would top out as a fringe playoff team & never be a serious threat to compete). The only way this works is if you ship out Hield, Bogdan, Barnes, Bjelica, & Holmes for young assets & then send those young assets with Bagley or Fox for a star, but that would require 3-4 teams to be involved which makes the situation very unlikely to happen.

That depth and variable salary level can come in quite handy when looking to involve another team or two though. What's going on now is why I hoped Vlade held onto some of that cap space rather than going overboard with depth. That space plus a pick would have been interesting. As it is though, we've seen most of that depth pay off when things were humming. And in a trade for another star you're looking at a Bagley type of package. Also, the Kings have their own pick. I think if things go to far into the negative Vlade might need to consider what a Bagley, Bogdan, and 1st might net him. I'm not sure I see anything out there worth it but you never know.

 

[kingsboi]

the rebuild starts with Vlade's departure, until then....no use doing a rebuild. just stay patient and hope Fox and Bagley turn into something worth building around, otherwise, trade players that don't fit here any longer.

 

[Joshoua]

What's the salary filler? MIL fans are very vocal about how important Ilyasova is to there rotation.


This year's 1st could end up being pretty valuable. It's also a bit of an odd trade as you're making ORL older with Hield/Ariza but then giving them a young asset at the same time. It seems a bit contradicting in nature. ORL also has Fournier & Ross at SG which makes Hield a little (dare I say) pointless? Not sure it's the right fit as a trade.

Not sure about the fit between Bagley & Sabonis. Bagley needs someone like Turner next to him ideally. Sabonis isn't the best floor spacer and isn't the best rim protector either. Not sure if Indiana would go for this. Perhaps they would look to move Sabonis for Bagley instead.

Seems reasonable if DEN can retain Beasley for a good price, but it's dependent on getting the IND 1st which comes back to the question of who is the salary filler?

ya I’ve been around bucks forums and they think that about Erasmus and any other player. If they think they’ll make it to the finals without making a trade there in for a surprise, they need another ball handler to take pressure off Giannis. If there FO is as oblivious as the fans I’d guess Luer, Wilson, and
Korbut for Bogi than we waive Jeffries and Swanigan

I think Hield is young enough for Orlando to gamble on they need to open room up for Isaac to play PF and they need shooting. Fournier is a lesser player than buddy and will be a FA soon same with Ross.

I pick Turner over Sabonios because he’s the one in trade tonite so it seems they like him over Turner.

 

[twslam07]

I get what you're saying. If they go in full tank mode then I'm all for it but they could also tank by playing Giles or Bagley ahead of Holmes and then use Holmes again when they turn over the roster and attempt to compete. But you're right that there's no guarantees that he will stay.

I know you personally aren't going to sign Dedmon because you aren't the GM. I'd rather talk realistically about what might possibly happen with the team rather than just live in a total fantasy land where anything is possible. I'm just thinking ok if we go with your plan and get this pick and that pick and then free up X amount of dollars, what would the team actually be able to do with that and would it be more than what they gave up to get it? That's what I'm after. I know the trades wont go down exactly as you wrote them up but it's somewhat realistic to think that similar scenarios could arise with different teams and different assets.

I think “total fantasy land” is a bit harsh.

To be honest, I don’t see Vlade rebuilding so I think (by your definition) this whole thread is in “total fantasy land.” If Vlade were to sell these guys off, he would be admitting defeat. And with that defeat, he’s likely shown the door. Therefore, if these trades are going down and we are going back into a rebuilding phase, it likely means Vlade is gone. And therefore if Vlade is gone, I don’t think either of us can predict what the FO would do with the cap space from my trade. All any of us can do is say what WE would do if WE were in charge, and that’s exactly what I’m doing.

 

[jellyfish]

What's the salary filler? MIL fans are very vocal about how important Ilyasova is to there rotation.


This year's 1st could end up being pretty valuable. It's also a bit of an odd trade as you're making ORL older with Hield/Ariza but then giving them a young asset at the same time. It seems a bit contradicting in nature. ORL also has Fournier & Ross at SG which makes Hield a little (dare I say) pointless? Not sure it's the right fit as a trade.

Not sure about the fit between Bagley & Sabonis. Bagley needs someone like Turner next to him ideally. Sabonis isn't the best floor spacer and isn't the best rim protector either. Not sure if Indiana would go for this. Perhaps they would look to move Sabonis for Bagley instead.

Seems reasonable if DEN can retain Beasley for a good price, but it's dependent on getting the IND 1st which comes back to the question of who is the salary filler?

I would actually want Beasley I really think he can break out and be what we wanted Ben Mclemore to be a elite athlete (can run with Fox or anyone) who can shoot and he's on a great value deal. If the Kings can get Sabonis I'm trading the whole team plus the kitchen sink (minus Fox) to get him. He's high IQ and the most physical player in the NBA that legally hurts people and throws grown men around like they are children. He also drastically improved as defender.

It's very rare you get a brutal hard worker who's above average IQ, like Holmes is a hard worker but he knows his limitations but you could not run an offense through him, Sabonis gives you the best of both worlds.

I would also look at trading for Dorian Finney-Smith another excellent contract for Bogs. The Kings have to find a way to drop one or both of Barnes/Buddy in particular Barnes.

 

[ESP47]

I think “total fantasy land” is a bit harsh.

To be honest, I don’t see Vlade rebuilding so I think (by your definition) this whole thread is in “total fantasy land.” If Vlade were to sell these guys off, he would be admitting defeat. And with that defeat, he’s likely shown the door. Therefore, if these trades are going down and we are going back into a rebuilding phase, it likely means Vlade is gone. And therefore if Vlade is gone, I don’t think either of us can predict what the FO would do with the cap space from my trade. All any of us can do is say what WE would do if WE were in charge, and that’s exactly what I’m doing.

I didn't mean it as an insult. Just meant that I try to cross your ideas with what might really happen.

We can't predict exactly what they're going to do if Vlade is gone but the track record of the franchise certainly doesn't lend us to a ton of hope that anything good will happen.

 

[Chupacabra]

Blow it up and start over? We just put it together. The idea that you should blow up a relatively new team with a brand new headcoach is laughable. It is the type of move that is "KANGZ" and some of you are blinded by frustration.

 

[Gguod]

Blow it up and start over? We just put it together. The idea that you should blow up a relatively new team with a brand new headcoach is laughable. It is the type of move that is "KANGZ" and some of you are blinded by frustration.

The argument behind "blowing it up" is not laughable. This is the core, cap situation is no longer flexible so its hard to get drastically better talent wise. If this exact core looks like a base for a 30-41win team while getting expensive, yeah we probably should do something about it. Being a 35 win team year after year is "KANGZ".

Also to people here, blowing it up in this situation probably doesnt mean "trade everyone including Fox". What it probably means is accepting that there is not enough top level talent, moving the timeline couple of years further, getting assets for players that are not going to be a part of that timeline. Also getting a competent gm to handle the process so we could even have those extra assets and so that we have a competent guy to use those assets.

Fox still can and will be part of the core after retooling, also Bagley if he improves. Being a 35 win team with little flexibility and zero additional assets is just not benefical. Take the next two years to be patient and to build the right way.

 

[twslam07]

Blow it up and start over? We just put it together. The idea that you should blow up a relatively new team with a brand new headcoach is laughable. It is the type of move that is "KANGZ" and some of you are blinded by frustration.

@Gguod summed up my thoughts but what do they say (and @carmichaeldave says it on his show every now and then)...

If you're going to fail, fail fast.

 

[Section 101]

Blow it up and start over? We just put it together. The idea that you should blow up a relatively new team with a brand new headcoach is laughable. It is the type of move that is "KANGZ" and some of you are blinded by frustration.

I'll add to this. Blow what up? It's already been blown up and not put back together. Blowing a team up usually means you have a player or players the team is built around and you trade them to go another direction, IE Cuz.

 

[upinsmoke]

I wouldn't trade Buddy but I have always maintained that hes best used off the bench as a low touch shooter. I would really like a solid 2 guard defender on this team.

 

[Section 101]

I wouldn't trade Buddy but I have always maintained that hes best used off the bench as a low touch shooter. I would really like a solid 2 guard defender on this team.

Buddy is a poison pill player. Tough to make salary's work till next summer.

 

[Reverend]

I wouldn't trade Buddy but I have always maintained that hes best used off the bench as a low touch shooter. I would really like a solid 2 guard defender on this team.

If we can be patient and develop him, I think we may have that in Justin James

 

[upinsmoke]

If we can be patient and develop him, I think we may have that in Justin James

Yes its possible.