Season is over for Spencer
- Thread starter DocHolliday
- Start date
TheFifthMookie
Bench
I just added one of those two to ignore. guess which.
hint: doesn't rhyme with pie-ster
LPKingsFan
All-Star
Zero fat protein shake right there ^^
Maybe he should get on the Eric Cartman workout plan, get some Weight Gain 4000?
That might be, but the one thing that really stands out to me with Spencer is that he doesn't seem at all comfortable in his own body. You can tell by the way he runs with his hands flailing all about.
Sparky6string
Bench
I feel bad for Spencer. Get better soon bro!
Fear the Putin
Starter
Maybe he should get on the Eric Cartman workout plan, get some Weight Gain 4000?
So, you're telling me hawes is gonna look like cartman after that?
Ugh...
Bryant Reeves 2.0
FaStRmAn
Starter
HOW can that POSSIBLY BE? If you see pics of Hawes as a rookie and Hawes today, the difference is minimal. Hawes hasn't seemed to put on any bulk at all either on his upper or lower body. So something is just not right here. Either Shapiro is covering for Spencer's lack of dedication to the off season conditioning program, the Off season conditioning plan is an Aerobic one ONLY, or there is just a major cover up of Hawes's lack of motivation to be the inside presence that could stop other centers in the league who DO work out and get bigger and hurt the Kings inside with their obvious strength advantages. Someone is not being truthful.
I do not believe that Spencer Hawes has followed a strength regimen that was created to bulk up Hawes to play center in the paint. Hawes has NOT bulked up. He is rail beanpole thin. So the workouts that Shapiro has given Hawes MUST have been aerobic ones. This year Hawes increased his stamina, but he was still pushed around like a 12 year old boy in the paint. Hawes needed to build up his upper and lower body mass. He needed to gain 20-25 lbs to compete and bang around under the basket for rebounds. That clearly has not happened. Hawes is still rail thin and cannot play defense against any center in the league in the paint. It has been that way since the first day Hawes came to the Kings. If Shapiro believes his workouts are doing Spencer any good, it is time to replace Shapiro. Spencer needed to Bulk UP not get aerobically able to run with the guards! The Center Position is one of brute strength and bulk. If Shapiro believes he has been a success as a condition coach by making Hawes into a track star, then we have the WRONG guy in our training staff.
I have to believe that Shapiro DID have exercise programs to bulk Spencer up and Spencer has ignored them. Spencer sees himself as a 7' GUARD, and we dont need a 7' guard. We need a 7' Re bounder and protector of the paint. So someone here is not telling the truth, or a horrible error has occurred. Sure Spence doesn't get tired running the floor anymore, but he hasn't achieved any success at ALL in getting bigger and stronger in the paint to compete for rebounds and play interior defense.
So the question is, is it time for Hawes to go or is it time for Shapiro to go? We have had a lot of injuries on our team that seem conditioning related. We see the result of his "Success" with Hawes as a track star bean pole. I think the time has come to change our entire training staff and start building up our players the way they need to be be working out to maximize their opportunities. The Players are the Teams most PRIZED ASSET! Interior players need to bulk up. Guards need to have the track speed and endurance. It might be time to overhaul the training staff at this point. Hawes is NOT stronger than Brockman. NOT stronger than JT. And I would bet he is NOT stronger that EVANS even. He gets pushed around too much to be considered the "Strongest" player on the team. That statement is blatantly false!
Last edited:
bajaden
Hall of Famer
HOW can that POSSIBLY BE? If you see pics of Hawes as a rookie and Hawes today, the difference is minimal. Hawes hasn't seemed to put on any bulk at all either on his upper or lower body. So something is just not right here. Either Shapiro is covering for Spencer's lack of dedication to the off season conditioning program, the Off season conditioning plan is an Aerobic one ONLY, or there is just a major cover up of Hawes's lack of motivation to be the inside presence that could stop other centers in the league who DO work out and get bigger and hurt the Kings inside with their obvious strength advantages. Someone is not being truthful.
I do not believe that Spencer Hawes has followed a strength regimen that was created to bulk up Hawes to play center in the paint. Hawes has NOT bulked up. He is rail beanpole thin. So the workouts that Shapiro has given Hawes MUST have been aerobic ones. This year Hawes increased his stamina, but he was still pushed around like a 12 year old boy in the paint. Hawes needed to build up his upper and lower body mass. He needed to gain 20-25 lbs to compete and bang around under the basket for rebounds. That clearly has not happened. Hawes is still rail thin and cannot play defense against any center in the league in the paint. It has been that way since the first day Hawes came to the Kings. If Shapiro believes his workouts are doing Spencer any good, it is time to replace Shapiro. Spencer needed to Bulk UP not get aerobically able to run with the guards! The Center Position is one of brute strength and bulk. If Shapiro believes he has been a success as a condition coach by making Hawes into a track star, then we have the WRONG guy in our training staff.
I have to believe that Shapiro DID have exercise programs to bulk Spencer up and Spencer has ignored them. Spencer sees himself as a 7' GUARD, and we dont need a 7' guard. We need a 7' Re bounder and protector of the paint. So someone here is not telling the truth, or a horrible error has occurred. Sure Spence doesn't get tired running the floor anymore, but he hasn't achieved any success at ALL in getting bigger and stronger in the paint to compete for rebounds and play interior defense.
So the question is, is it time for Hawes to go or is it time for Shapiro to go? We have had a lot of injuries on our team that seem conditioning related. We see the result of his "Success" with Hawes as a track star bean pole. I think the time has come to change our entire training staff and start building up our players the way they need to be be working out to maximize their opportunities. The Players are the Teams most PRIZED ASSET! Interior players need to bulk up. Guards need to have the track speed and endurance. It might be time to overhaul the training staff at this point. Hawes is NOT stronger than Brockman. NOT stronger than JT. And I would bet he is NOT stronger that EVANS even. He gets pushed around too much to be considered the "Strongest" player on the team. That statement is blatantly false!
Well at least your not letting your emotions get the best of you....
Emma
Starter
HOW can that POSSIBLY BE? [...] He gets pushed around too much to be considered the "Strongest" player on the team. That statement is blatantly false!
He may be the strongest member of the team.
Seriously.
That doesn't mean that he utilizes his strength in the smartest of ways. You gotta dig in, bump for position, move with a purpose, try and intimidate. Hawes doesn't do that. I don't know if he knows how. He needs someone to get in there and knock him around until he wants to take their head off, over, and over, and over, and over again until he learns how to play like an ice cold assassin (ala Duncan), or scare the he** out of people (like Garnett). Probably won't happen.
FakeInjury
Bench
Do we extend him based on his 1 and 1/2 years of service as a king or do we extend him based on his potential career in a kings uniform? Do we let him play his way into a $50,000,000 contract after 2-3 years, or do we give him a pay raise today just to calm his nerves and allow him to just go out and play? Do you want him in a kings uniform or would you rather see him EXPLODE in a purple and gold uniform(heaven forbid)? I think we should ask Hawes, and knowing NBA players, they all want max extensions, or their agents do. His agent says 40, we say 20, he says 36 plus incentives, we say 20 for 4 years plus a player option of $6mil. His agent says expletive off, and hawes has a monster season and we end up paying him 60 in 1-2 years.
Spence will never be a monster rebounder. And thinking about scoring in this team's offense he's not going to score more than 15-16. Center with 15+8 with suspect defense is nothing to write home about. It's a no-brainer. And if he comes into the next training camp same weak human being, he's barely worth 20 over 4 years.
FakeInjury
Bench
spece got 15 once this season, and he has the size and mobility to actually be an accomplished rebounder, he just doesn't have the evolution of technique in his brain. Its hard to understand or if you understand its hard to believe a professional needs more practice, but spencer hasn't logged more basketball in his life on and off the court than some straight up regular dude NBA fans. that being said, regular dudes have watched more film, probably not practiced or played as much. I would like to resign him BEFORE he averaged 10rpg, and he WILL average 10rpg eventually, he just needs a physics lesson from tom izzo or whatever it takes to actually LEVEL UP his rebounding skills.
I think the Kings are in a very advantageous position in regards to getting Hawes to sign a very reasonable extension this summer. The way he has played so far, you would think that instead of signing an extension this year he would be better off rolling the dice and trying to up his value next year, but there are a couple big factors that may make him hedge his bets and take the guaranteed money right now, even if its for less per year than he may possibly be able to get eventually.
First off, Spencer cannot have total confidence in his knees holding up. Between microfracture, another surgery before his rookie season, and this latest knee injury he may be a little spooked at the moment. It has shown to be on his mind at times, for example when he held himself out of the physical testing that Theus was doing because he was afraid of the effects it would have on his knees. Secondly, the most likely changes coming in the new CBA will be less guaranteed years on a contract, and even more likely less guaranteed years on an MLE deal. I can see MLE deals being capped at 3 years, as the 5 year MLE deals have composed the majority of the terrible contracts that the owners are stuck with. Combine the knee worries with the new cba, and Hawes may decide that its a much safer bet to take the guaranteed money right now, even if it works out to be less per year than he can possibly get if he improves next year.
So how much is Hawes worth then? This year he averaged 10 points 6 rebounds. Pretty poor numbers and a regression from last year, although Westphal may not have helped matters much in that department. Here are what some of the more comparable guys have signed for in the last few years.
Zaza Pachulia-6.2 points and 5.7 rebounds in 09 got him 4 years 19 million dollars.
Anderson Varejao- 8.6 points and 7.2 rebounds in 09 got him 6 years 48 million.
Charlie Villanueva- 16.2 points and 6.7 rebounds in 09 got him 5 years 38 million.
Andris Biedrins- 10.5 points and 9.8 rebounds in 08 got him 6 years 54 million.
Chris Kaman- 11.9 points and 9.6 rebounds in 06 got him 5 years 52 million.
Darko Milicic- 8 points and 5.5 rebounds in 07 got him 3 years 21 million.
Mark Blount- 10.3 points and 7.2 rebounds in 04 got him 6 years 41 million.
Nenad Krstic- 6.6 points and 4.4 rebounds in 08 got him 3 years 15 million.(Only played 19 mpg, and was his worst statistical year as a pro)
Joel Pryzbilla- 6 points and 7 rebounds in 06 got him 5 years 32 million.
Andrea Bargnani- 15.4 points and 5.3 rebounds in 09 got him 5 years 50 million.
Looking at those contracts, I would say Hawes is definitely below the 10 million a year guys, he doesn't rebound like Biedrins or Kaman, and doesn't score like Bargnani or Villinueva. I would also consider Varejao much better than Hawes defensively, so he should be worth more than Hawes as well. That leaves Hawes right there with Mark Blount, Pachulia, Darko, Pryzbilla and Krstic. Those guys all signed for between 5 and 7 million a year. Considering Hawes' age, size, and skillset, I think that a 6-7 million a year contract over 5 years won't run the risk of becoming a horrible contract, and could very well turn out to be a bargain if he eventually does break out as a legit starting center.
First off, Spencer cannot have total confidence in his knees holding up. Between microfracture, another surgery before his rookie season, and this latest knee injury he may be a little spooked at the moment. It has shown to be on his mind at times, for example when he held himself out of the physical testing that Theus was doing because he was afraid of the effects it would have on his knees. Secondly, the most likely changes coming in the new CBA will be less guaranteed years on a contract, and even more likely less guaranteed years on an MLE deal. I can see MLE deals being capped at 3 years, as the 5 year MLE deals have composed the majority of the terrible contracts that the owners are stuck with. Combine the knee worries with the new cba, and Hawes may decide that its a much safer bet to take the guaranteed money right now, even if it works out to be less per year than he can possibly get if he improves next year.
So how much is Hawes worth then? This year he averaged 10 points 6 rebounds. Pretty poor numbers and a regression from last year, although Westphal may not have helped matters much in that department. Here are what some of the more comparable guys have signed for in the last few years.
Zaza Pachulia-6.2 points and 5.7 rebounds in 09 got him 4 years 19 million dollars.
Anderson Varejao- 8.6 points and 7.2 rebounds in 09 got him 6 years 48 million.
Charlie Villanueva- 16.2 points and 6.7 rebounds in 09 got him 5 years 38 million.
Andris Biedrins- 10.5 points and 9.8 rebounds in 08 got him 6 years 54 million.
Chris Kaman- 11.9 points and 9.6 rebounds in 06 got him 5 years 52 million.
Darko Milicic- 8 points and 5.5 rebounds in 07 got him 3 years 21 million.
Mark Blount- 10.3 points and 7.2 rebounds in 04 got him 6 years 41 million.
Nenad Krstic- 6.6 points and 4.4 rebounds in 08 got him 3 years 15 million.(Only played 19 mpg, and was his worst statistical year as a pro)
Joel Pryzbilla- 6 points and 7 rebounds in 06 got him 5 years 32 million.
Andrea Bargnani- 15.4 points and 5.3 rebounds in 09 got him 5 years 50 million.
Looking at those contracts, I would say Hawes is definitely below the 10 million a year guys, he doesn't rebound like Biedrins or Kaman, and doesn't score like Bargnani or Villinueva. I would also consider Varejao much better than Hawes defensively, so he should be worth more than Hawes as well. That leaves Hawes right there with Mark Blount, Pachulia, Darko, Pryzbilla and Krstic. Those guys all signed for between 5 and 7 million a year. Considering Hawes' age, size, and skillset, I think that a 6-7 million a year contract over 5 years won't run the risk of becoming a horrible contract, and could very well turn out to be a bargain if he eventually does break out as a legit starting center.
sidney
Starter
An extension this summer would be a horrible idea IMO.
Nobody is dying to have him as their starting center. Let the new CBA play out next year, and worst case he'll be a restricted FA and we can match another offer if it's reasonable.
All those contracts listed above are moot since the CBA will change every new contract that is given out. If he was a star you might take the risk, but as a middling soft center...no
Nobody is dying to have him as their starting center. Let the new CBA play out next year, and worst case he'll be a restricted FA and we can match another offer if it's reasonable.
All those contracts listed above are moot since the CBA will change every new contract that is given out. If he was a star you might take the risk, but as a middling soft center...no
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I agree. We have no need to sign him to an extension. And with a new CBA looming, and the possiblity of entirely new rules dictating salaries, I think the best thing to do is take a wait and see attitude. Now if we were talking about Tyreke, that would be a different story. But were not..
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
That's about right, or would have been under the current CBA. But the great goblin hiding in the NBA's grass right now is a looming labor disaster after next season, which could cost them part of the season and is almost surely going to result in a considerable reduction of salaries. The owners seem to want to destroy the league and make it a huge reduction, but I think more reasonable heads will prevail. They will still come down though, both in length and $$s, so making an early move to resign a guy like Spencer (if you even want him) doesn't make as much sense as it would have in 2002 trying to anticipate the market.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
In terms of strength, while not a hulk, Spencer is far from "weak". Just watch the games, he holds his position in the post much better than JT. If there is any player in the front court that worries me strength wise it's JT.
Last significant piece of evidence I saw, one way or the other, was Spence getting dogged by Bynum a couple weeks ago. Maybe not a weakling physically, but he's certainly not strong mentally. Totally cowered away from the challenge in that game, lending credence to the rumor that he's intimidated by other big men in the NBA.
Far from weak when most fans want the Kings to draft or trade for a strong defensive center?
Can't you see who most fans are voting for as the weakest link in our roster eversince the season started?
IMO, if Spencer is not white, finessed, and passing big, he could have been crucified the way fans had crucified the likes of Moore and May. I think a lot of fans still want a Vlade Divac type of center. Unfortunately, Hawes is just too weak compared to Valde upto now and may never be half as strong.
I would say offer the kid 25M for 6 years. He's got a a bad knee, questionnable attitude, and very weak game anyways.
Last edited:
FaStRmAn
Starter
He needs to bulk up to compete in the NBA, but his knees may not be able to handle additional weight. It is a catch 22. Kings may need to draft a big man and have Hawes come off the bench. Hawes may make a decent bench player but he will never be a starter in the NBA at his present weight. He does not seem interested in gaining the weight he needs to muscle up and be an inside force for the team. You have to hope that somehow he comes back in shape next year and accepts a backup role. He has to know that if he is too thin to play center in the NBA that he cant expect a starting role. Simple as that!
DocHolliday
Starter
To be fair Spencer is not "out of shape. He may not be as bulky as we want him to be, but the guy is in good shape. He just needs to work on his overall strength, and act like he has a pair when he's down low.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Yeah, I think Spence is in good enough shape. And while I think strength is very important, so is weight. The problem is that if you have extra weight, it needs to be muscle. And thats not going to happen overnight. I don't think there's an easy way to go from 235 pounds to 265 pounds. And if you weigh 235 pounds and your strong as hell, someone that weighs 265 pounds is still going to move you by banging into you. Thats just a matter of physics.
Yes, I know you can learn how to use leverage and technique etc. But if your a 235 pounder and a 310 pound Shaq bangs into you, your going to move backwards. I don't give a damm how strong you are. So if your not able to hold your ground, you better be Marcus Camby or a reasonable facsimile. The truth is, I think Hawes has built in limitations as far as his ability to play defense. That doesn't mean I don't think he can be better than he is. It just means that there's a ceiling thats not too much higher.
So I think our expectations need to be based on reality and not on Bill Russell. I don't see stardom in Hawes future, but that doesn't mean he can't be a part of the equation. He does have a pretty good offensive skill level. He can be a better rebounder. Personally, I've lowered my expectations, and that makes him more palatable. At the same time it makes he look to the future for our starting center.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I don't know why you think Spencer doesn't seem interested in gaining weight. There is a difference between wanting to gain weight, and being physically mature enough to put on weight. Shapiro just said this past week Spencer is the strongest King in the weight room. He is also only 21, and his body isn't able yet to put on the mass a 26 year old can put on.
You act like because Spencer didn't go out and gain 30lbs of solid muscle during last offseason, when he was only 21, that he doesn't want to get stronger. It doesn't work that way. You should know that.
I would argue it's not so much the weight, but how you use it. That is where experience comes into play. Of course and extra 10-15lbs would help Spencer, mainly leg and core strength, and that will happen as his body matures and fills out. IMO, what is just as important for Spencer as gaining a few lbs this summer, is to master the footwork involved in boxing out, and post defense. He has to improve his leg strength, which will prevent him from getting backed down so easily. He needs to improve his footwork so guys don't get the ball so close to the basket. When boxing out he really needs to get lower, and make contact with the guys he's boxing out, really throw his hips into him.
So while you may argue that Spencer is not interested in gaining weight, or that gaining weight alone would improve his game, I think technique and footwork is going to be what helps Spencer the most when it comes to defense and rebounding.
Spencer is 7', and entered the league at 245lbs. There is no reason why in another year or two, after his body matures a little, he can't be a solid 260lbs. That would put him right in the middle of the pack for nba centers. Bogut and Kaman are two guys I would hope Spencer follows in terms of career development. Both were soft and were pushed around in the paint their first few years. Both are 7', and both are 260-265lbs.
277-0265
Kaman 7' 265lbs
Bynum 7' 285lbs
R Lopez 7' 255lbs
Haywood 7' 260lbs
M Gasol 7'1" 265lbs
Okafor 6'10" 255lbs
Duncan 6'11" 260lbs
Nene 6'11" 250lbs
Krstic 7' 240lbs
Oden 7' 280lbs
Przybilla 7'1" 245lbs
Okur 6'11" 260lbs
Perkins 6'10" 280lbs
B Lopez 7' 265lbs
Dalembert 6'11" 250lbs
Bargnani 7' 250lbs
Nesterovic 7' 250lbs
Noah 6'11" 235lbs
Ilgauskas 7'3" 260lbs
Ben wallace 6'9" 240lbs
Hibbert 7'2" 280lbs
Bogut 7' 260lbs
Horford 6'10" 245lbs
Chandler 7'1" 240lbs
D Howard 6'10" 265lbs
McGee 7' 255lbs
Spencer is not that much lighter than most nba centers. As Spencer matures, gains experience, and his footwork and knowledge of other players improves, so will he.
DocHolliday
Starter
I agree; and to his credit I believe he is up to 245lbs.
DocHolliday
Starter
I think the Kings should acquire Jamarcus Russell and put him as a Power Guard. Could you imagine the mismatch at 6' 6" and almost 300lbs?!?!
Similar threads
- Yahoo Sports
- Kings News Links
- Yahoo! Sports - NBA -
- Kings News Links