Telemachus
Starter
Yes. You heard correctly.
SacBee: Kings Thomas Needs To Find Balance
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
Yes. You heard correctly.
Was it IT's agent?
Man... this guy's fans are in danger of doing the impossible: they're about to make me swear off pizza.
Padrino
All-Star
while i'd gather that it's a minority of the pizza guy's fans in sacramento that would rather watch a losing kings team with their guy starting at PG than a winning kings team with another player starting at PG, it does point to a rather startling lack of self-awareness amongst the "root for the underdog" set. it's one thing to acknowledge when a player brings a high level of energy when he's in the game, and another thing entirely to fail to acknowledge that "heart" is not exclusive to the offensive side of the ball, or that "heart" means you're primarily out for yourself. the chip on a single player's shoulder is not some magic formula for winning basketball; then again, it does make some sense that kings fans would, generally speaking, fall so hard for isaiah thomas. sacramento has often come across as a city with a massive chip on its shoulder. the underdog narrative is an exceedingly popular one around these parts...
Glenn
Hall of Famer
You mean Jerry called in?
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
Anyone else see this? 462 out of 469 in the league? WOW!
Nicky Kayfabe @nickykayfabe 7h
@CarmichaelDave However, he's not just bad at D. He's abysmal. Sort by DRtg. He's 462nd of 469. Just above Jimmer. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_advanced.html…
Nicky Kayfabe @nickykayfabe 7h
@CarmichaelDave However, he's not just bad at D. He's abysmal. Sort by DRtg. He's 462nd of 469. Just above Jimmer. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013_advanced.html…
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
note D-Rtng is strongly correlated with overall team defense -- in other words, Tony Allen comes here, his DRtng automatically drops even thought he's the same player.
That said...yeah. Cousins is about the only guy on the whole team with a decent Drtng.
Ugh. I don't even like Thomas, and I have enough sense to not bother with Drtg as an argument against him:
- In the first place, it's a bull**** metric for gauging individual defense, since it's more a reflection of the team's defense than the individual's defensive capability, and
- In the second place, those numbers aren't even from this season.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Just for a refresher on some stats I posted earlier in the year, here are our team's DRtg on the year:
Vasquez 114
McLemore 112
Thornton 112
McCallum 112
Thomas 111
Fredette 111
Salmons 111
Landry 109
Williams 109
Thompson 109
Outlaw 109
Patterson 109
Gay 108
Mbah a Moute 108
Ndiaye 108
Gray 108
Acy 107
Hayes 105
Cousins 102
Vasquez 114
McLemore 112
Thornton 112
McCallum 112
Thomas 111
Fredette 111
Salmons 111
Landry 109
Williams 109
Thompson 109
Outlaw 109
Patterson 109
Gay 108
Mbah a Moute 108
Ndiaye 108
Gray 108
Acy 107
Hayes 105
Cousins 102
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
Oh you're right it's not this year, didn't even notice that, just checked, he's ranked 404 this year. seems like you gotta be a pretty awful defender to be ranked that low year after year regardless of DRtg being a flawed system and regardless of how bad your team is.
side note, maybe the teams D wouldn't be SO bad if the starting PG didn't let his man walk into the paint on every play?
side note, maybe the teams D wouldn't be SO bad if the starting PG didn't let his man walk into the paint on every play?
Kingsfan23
All-Star
As a IT guy for me personally I fail to see why whatever defensive shortcomings he has cannot be improved upon to the point of competency. I mean, Im not seeing his height being a significant impediment. I don't see anyone posting or extending over him. The kid obviously has stpeed H e is noted by grant as possibly having the strongest work ethic on the team. He has developed tremendously from last year to this year.
I personally would give him some time to see notable improvement on that end is possible under malone
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Padrino
All-Star
both isaiah thomas' height and his size have been significant impediments thus far in his career, and it gets harder and harder to understand why IT's fans aren't "seeing it." a great many opposing guards do, indeed, shoot over the top of him with ease. if your eyes are missing it, then i'm afraid the problem has more to do with the IT-colored glasses you may be wearing more than anything else. but perhaps most importantly, thomas is perpetually caught on the wrong side of every screen. he has difficulty fighting through those screens, and he has difficulty in recovery as his man blows by. these errors are well-documented...
the thing is, IT is not gonna get any taller. he's not gonna get any bigger. he will continue to get bounced around by the league's more physically substantial guards, and it will continue to pose a problem on the defensive end. beyond that, i don't disagree with you that much can be done about his effort on defense. it is, in fact, alarming to see how lacking his consistency is on the defensive side of the ball, considering just how willing he is to expend a tremendous amount of energy on the offensive side of the ball...
Size matters on defense. It just does.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Have you watched IT try to close out on a guy shooting over his head? They shoot as if he doesn't exist. I'm not even up to commenting on the the quote or reference to Grant as a source of IT's effort in practice. OK, I'll shut up but stay within the realms of reality. To say right off the bat that IT's height is no significant impediment makes me wonder if you understand why people wonder so much about how tall a player is.
You better get some sleep before you follow through on your irrational threat.
Kingsfan23
All-Star
Damn man, I didn't know that this was the thread to berate folks who support IT and are just respectfully looking to give a personal opinion. I guess I'll make it a mental note not to discuss IT here which I should have learned by now
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
i may have cried with laughter if i had heard this live. Man i really missed out
Glenn
Hall of Famer
This is a thread about IT. I will be more diligent in discrediting what you say so it doesn't seem personal.
No, you should make a mental note not to make ridiculous comments like "I mean, Im not seeing his height being a significant impediment".
And for the record? NO ONE is berating you. What they're doing is pointing out the fallacies in some of your comments. It's not personal.
Kingsfan23
All-Star
Ridiculous comment? That is my thought and it is subjective. It was a personal opinion not a statement or argument, hence why I led with "personally"
Swaze
Bench
I'm not a huge fan of Isaiah's game in that he's a bit too "shoot first" for my liking. I think this chip on his shoulder he has from everybody constantly doubting him further manifests itself into him playing a bit more selfishly than he should. Also as we all know he's pretty much terrible on the defensive end in large part due to his height although I don't think he always plays smart or gives absolute max effort on the defensive end either.
However with all of that said......this thread and some of the posts in threads like it are kind of an embarrassment. Essentially this section of the forum (Kings Rap) has become all things bash IT and hope he gets traded. Not exactly the classiest behavior from a supposed "supportive fan base". Fans of Isaiah Thomas get picked on because they have the nerve to actually support a player on their team. Imagine that a fan of a team actually supporting a player on the team (faults and all)........even if they acknowledge the faults they get lectured by so-called great basketball minds that make such astute observations like "Isaiah Thomas is short". Brilliant analysis, IT is short and opposing players shoot over the top of him..........damn I never noticed but now that I know I really hate him.
Now I'm not saying everybody needs to be a fan of the guy but I am saying he should be at least shown some respect by a fan base that constantly likes to label itself as "the best fans in the NBA".
Let's not forget that Isaiah Thomas was drafted dead last in 2nd Round. Let's not forget that most 2nd rounders don't even stick on NBA rosters. Let's not forget that IT has busted his ass to make it in this league and that he works harder than most other players. Let's not forget that he's averaging 20/6 while making $400,000 a year which as it stands is probably the best bargain in the NBA. Let's not forget that so many players in the NBA are making several million, not producing, and essentially stealing money from their respective teams.
And yet you guys harp on the faults of a late 2nd round draft pick making 2nd round money who has worked hard and overachieved every step of the way. Whether you are right or not it doesn't look good and like I said it's kind of embarrassing.
However with all of that said......this thread and some of the posts in threads like it are kind of an embarrassment. Essentially this section of the forum (Kings Rap) has become all things bash IT and hope he gets traded. Not exactly the classiest behavior from a supposed "supportive fan base". Fans of Isaiah Thomas get picked on because they have the nerve to actually support a player on their team. Imagine that a fan of a team actually supporting a player on the team (faults and all)........even if they acknowledge the faults they get lectured by so-called great basketball minds that make such astute observations like "Isaiah Thomas is short". Brilliant analysis, IT is short and opposing players shoot over the top of him..........damn I never noticed but now that I know I really hate him.
Now I'm not saying everybody needs to be a fan of the guy but I am saying he should be at least shown some respect by a fan base that constantly likes to label itself as "the best fans in the NBA".
Let's not forget that Isaiah Thomas was drafted dead last in 2nd Round. Let's not forget that most 2nd rounders don't even stick on NBA rosters. Let's not forget that IT has busted his ass to make it in this league and that he works harder than most other players. Let's not forget that he's averaging 20/6 while making $400,000 a year which as it stands is probably the best bargain in the NBA. Let's not forget that so many players in the NBA are making several million, not producing, and essentially stealing money from their respective teams.
And yet you guys harp on the faults of a late 2nd round draft pick making 2nd round money who has worked hard and overachieved every step of the way. Whether you are right or not it doesn't look good and like I said it's kind of embarrassing.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I am a fan of the Kings and will respect players who show respect for their team. We are the worst team in the Western Conference. What should I be cheering about especially when I think one of the players is a huge part of the problem.
I DO consider myself a great fan and don't need to prove it to you or Isaiah Thomas.
I DO consider myself a great fan and don't need to prove it to you or Isaiah Thomas.
Swaze
Bench
Funny that you mention that the Kings are the worst team in the Western Conference and yet Demarcus Cousins their best player receives 99.5% praise on this website and is never ever held even partly accountable for all of their losses. I think that's a big reason why a guy like IT takes so much heat is because people are so infatuated with Cousins that it just doesn't make sense how he could be "the best center in the world" and yet the team be so bad. Somebody has to take the blame. In some sense it actually doesn't make much sense.................. unless you admit to yourself that while Cousins is a great player, he still has a lot of room for improvement and he's not yet a winning player that leads or really makes his teammates better.
Cousins has such an immense amount of talent (and still more potential) that I have no doubt that he will get there in being that player that is a "winner" and does make his teammates better. That's still a couple of years though and until he gets to that point he's just another immensely talented big man with even more potential that puts up huge numbers (without much defense) on bad teams. Kevin Love has the same label on him and rightly so. Until you lead, inspire, improve teammates, and ultimately win games you are not a complete player.
Bottom line is that IT gets extra blame because the average poster here isn't willing to admit that maybe just maybe Cousins isn't perfect and still has some room to grow as a player and especially a leader.
I will say this a guy like Isaiah Thomas may very well be a hindrance to Cousins' growth though and moving a shoot-first defensive liability like Thomas from the equation should actually help Cousins to continue to evolve. Right now IT is in the way and not sure he's willing to take a true backseat to Cousins long term.
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HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
The Kings are 0-9 when Cousins doesn't play. enough said
Swaze
Bench
And 18-27 when he does play. What playoff seed will that winning percentage get you?
Kevin Love is taking massive heat in Minnesota right now, people are asking if he is so good why are they not winning?
Carmelo Anthony is taking massive heat in New York right now, people are asking if he is so good why are they not winning?
Kyrie Irving is taking massive heat in Cleveland right now, people are asking if he is so good why are they not winning?
Yet in the same situation Cousins gets absolutely zero heat despite being the "face of the franchise" and meanwhile the 2nd round draft pick making $400k gets all the blame. How on earth does that make sense?
Now I'm not saying Cousins is mainly at fault for the teams losses or even a significant part of the fault but for people to act like he doesn't even deserve a single small iota of blame is completely ridiculous.
Can you honestly say that DeMarcus Cousins makes a significant impact on the defensive end? Until you can answer that question with an affirmative YES then he can't be absolved from partial blame in the losses.
I'm not a huge fan of Isaiah's game in that he's a bit too "shoot first" for my liking. I think this chip on his shoulder he has from everybody constantly doubting him further manifests itself into him playing a bit more selfishly than he should. Also as we all know he's pretty much terrible on the defensive end in large part due to his height although I don't think he always plays smart or gives absolute max effort on the defensive end either.
However with all of that said......this thread and some of the posts in threads like it are kind of an embarrassment. Essentially this section of the forum (Kings Rap) has become all things bash IT and hope he gets traded. Not exactly the classiest behavior from a supposed "supportive fan base". Fans of Isaiah Thomas get picked on because they have the nerve to actually support a player on their team. Imagine that a fan of a team actually supporting a player on the team (faults and all)........even if they acknowledge the faults they get lectured by so-called great basketball minds that make such astute observations like "Isaiah Thomas is short". Brilliant analysis, IT is short and opposing players shoot over the top of him..........damn I never noticed but now that I know I really hate him.
Now I'm not saying everybody needs to be a fan of the guy but I am saying he should be at least shown some respect by a fan base that constantly likes to label itself as "the best fans in the NBA".
Let's not forget that Isaiah Thomas was drafted dead last in 2nd Round. Let's not forget that most 2nd rounders don't even stick on NBA rosters. Let's not forget that IT has busted his ass to make it in this league and that he works harder than most other players. Let's not forget that he's averaging 20/6 while making $400,000 a year which as it stands is probably the best bargain in the NBA. Let's not forget that so many players in the NBA are making several million, not producing, and essentially stealing money from their respective teams.
And yet you guys harp on the faults of a late 2nd round draft pick making 2nd round money who has worked hard and overachieved every step of the way. Whether you are right or not it doesn't look good and like I said it's kind of embarrassing.
I think part of the understated problem is that many of the most vocal IT fans that get "persecuted around here for supporting a player faults and all" were the most vocal critics of Tyreke when he was here. They spent a great deal of time criticizing all of the things he didn't do well but now play the victim card when its their guy.
Obviously, that isn't the whole issue as the bigger problem is IT supporters not understanding why fans get frustrated due to his current role, but I do think that's part of the emotional component.
The rest of your underdog story gets filed in my who gives a flying rip folder as I'm tired of hearing about how his tiny tim story is somehow relevant to concerns about his current role.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Just 8 posts ahead of yours I posted some numbers that seemed to suggest just exactly that:
Just for a refresher on some stats I posted earlier in the year, here are our team's DRtg on the year:
Vasquez 114
McLemore 112
Thornton 112
McCallum 112
Thomas 111
Fredette 111
Salmons 111
Landry 109
Williams 109
Thompson 109
Outlaw 109
Patterson 109
Gay 108
Mbah a Moute 108
Ndiaye 108
Gray 108
Acy 107
Hayes 105
Cousins 102
Cousins is not only our best offensive player, our best rebounder, he also makes the biggest impact for us on defense. Not to mention in the W/L column. And he's doing all that at age 23 in his first year of proper recognition as a franchise player, while already having played with 18 different teammates this season, with #19 and #20 on their way, and its entirely possible more still to come tomorrow.
Chupacabra
Starter
I don't think Kevin Love is taking massive heat from anyone who knows what they're talking about. A great player does not a good team make. Its a team sport. For a team to succeed the TEAM has to be good. The Timberwolves, much like us, are a team of mismatched parts. Our team also isnt 100% buying in to what the coach wants. This argument is a reach.
Actually, I think part of it is that DMC has come out after numerous games and said that the loss is on him, even when he played well, because as the team leader he takes responsibility for the preparation and motivation of the players. Folks can respect that.
IT, most of the time, just talks about how "we" need to get better and rarely (but it has happened once or twice) stated how he takes responsibility. He keeps calling himself the leader of the team; however he doesn't seem to see his own limitations.
I (I think like most others here) do not hate IT or want to see him get shipped out of town. I want a starting PG who is tall enough to defend the position and takes better care of the ball. I love IT as the 6th man for this team and think that is the perfect role for him. But he sees himself as starter material and will want to get paid as such. I don't see that happening, at least not here. He has done his best as a supersub forced into the starting role, but I don't think that is where he belongs.
Month ago, when I finally learned, what Drtg means, I stopped using it. Drtg estimates defensive impact based on some formula, involving box score stats, it's not opponents' scoring per possession. You gamble for steals and blocks, fight with your own teammates for defensive rebounds, and you'll get a nice estimation. Completely useless, even often criticized PER has much more analytical value.
