SacBee: Kings Thomas Needs To Find Balance

[Capt. Factorial]

Last night in response to a question about fans being critical of him he in so many words said that Kobe and Lebron are critized also. Whatever that meant. Even without that comment, I DO think IT over-rates himself and that is outright delusional.

I think you misinterpreted that. He was basically saying, "Sure, I get criticized. But even Kobe gets criticized, even LeBron gets criticized, so why should I think I'm immune from criticism if the best players in the game aren't?" I'm pretty confident he was in no way trying to say he's as good as Kobe or LeBron.

 

[Npliam]

I think you misinterpreted that. He was basically saying, "Sure, I get criticized. But even Kobe gets criticized, even LeBron gets criticized, so why should I think I'm immune from criticism if the best players in the game aren't?" I'm pretty confident he was in no way trying to say he's as good as Kobe or LeBron.

He probably wasn't saying it but I think he believes it.

 

[Glenn]

I think you misinterpreted that. He was basically saying, "Sure, I get criticized. But even Kobe gets criticized, even LeBron gets criticized, so why should I think I'm immune from criticism if the best players in the game aren't?" I'm pretty confident he was in no way trying to say he's as good as Kobe or LeBron.

I know what I said wasn't exactly accurate but I thoroughly believe he has a view of himself that is far off reality. Can you agree with that? Tossing of fans criticism is foolish although he has Jerry and Grant at his back so what should he care about what us dumb ****s think? Certainly if Lebron and Kobe can shrug it off, IT should be able to shrug it off.

 

[Padrino]

14 shots is a nice tight leash? That's news to me. That range is exactly where most #2 options in the NBA are.

The difference is beginning of the year IT was approaching the realm of Durant, Bron, and Steph territory. (This is me talking about scoring the ball. Not comparing the players) Which is to say , absolutely nuts. Even IT scaling back to his career averages, he's still one of the top PG scorers in the NBA (no small feat in today's NBA)

http://www.basketball-reference.com...014&p5=parketo01&y5=2014&p6=curryst01&y6=2014

There's his comparison to who are widely considered the top offensive scoring PG's in the league. You can argue the list obviously, but a majority of lists will include those guys. And the only one who stands ahead of Thomas is Curry. (Again, this is me talking about SCORING. Nothing else. So no trying to con volute my argument )

2nd in FT attempts, 2nd in efficiency. And if you balance the FG attempts/36, he's actually 5th on the list.

14 shots is, indeed, a nice tight leash when the player in question is prone to chucking 20+ when left to his own devices. and "that range" is, like everything, dependent upon context. sure, it's a #2 option's FGA's in the starting unit, but it's just as easily a quality sixth man's FGA's off the bench, a manu ginobili, a jamal crawford, etc. given thomas' diminutive stature, his aversion to defense, and his limited instincts as a PG, the latter role has always been a more likely fate for him, on this particular team, at least. coach malone never waned in starting the equally defense-averse greivis vasquez in front of thomas because of factors that are not insignificant...

regardless, my point was that i am wholly unconcerned with how impressive his early season numbers may have been. i don't care how wow'ed you or anyone else may have been by a great offensive stretch by an undersized chucker on a losing team. "absolutely nuts"? yeah, i guess, though i haven't the slightest idea why that matters. it wasn't sustainable, it occurred during an overwhelmingly home-heavy portion of the schedule, and it resulted in very few wins. really, what is it that you're trying to prove regarding thomas? that, devoid of any useful context, he's an elite-level PG? please. i don't disagree with you that IT is a potent scorer, but, without context, what does it tell us, or anybody?

every one of the players on that list you provided is taller than isaiah thomas. every player on that list is a better defender than isaiah thomas. most of them have a greater share of natural PG instincts, and most of them know their place in their team's hierarchy. also, none of them except thomas are in a contract year. once again, these are not insignificant factors...

 

[VF21]

There was a lot of talk in that interview about him being the leader of the team, as he goes everyone goes. If that's what he's hearing from the coaches, then, well, I better start getting used to him I guess, cause that doesn't sound like a guy going anywhere to me.

And that depresses the hell out of me. If you watch the team dynamic, it's pretty clear IT is not the leader. If anything, I would consider Rudy Gay to be the leader, a guy who can keep everyone on the same page and going in the right direction because of his experience and veteran presence. The chemistry already built up between Cuz and Gay speaks well for the future, but not if IT doesn't get on board. I say again - Isaiah Thomas is NOT a leader.

 

[VF21]

I think you misinterpreted that. He was basically saying, "Sure, I get criticized. But even Kobe gets criticized, even LeBron gets criticized, so why should I think I'm immune from criticism if the best players in the game aren't?" I'm pretty confident he was in no way trying to say he's as good as Kobe or LeBron.

But if you're comparing yourself to LeBron and Kobe, doesn't it mean you think you're comparable? Based on how hostile IT's agent gets on Twitter, I've come to the conclusion you are not allowed to criticize the great Isaiah Thomas...ever. And I've also come to believe that's why he's started getting technicals.

 

[Glenn]

And that depresses the hell out of me. If you want the team dynamic, it's pretty clear IT is not the leader. If anything, I would consider Rudy Gay to be the leader, a guy who can keep everyone on the same page and going in the right direction because of his experience and veteran presence. The chemistry already built up between Cuz and Gay speaks well for the future, but not if IT doesn't get on board. I say again - Isaiah Thomas is NOT a leader.

Rudy is Robert Duvall's consigliere to Al Pacino's Boogie.

 

[VF21]

Rudy is Robert Duvall's consigliere to Al Pacino's Boogie.

If that parallel holds true, then IT should stay away from Lake Tahoe. (True Godfather aficionados will get the reference).

 

[Padrino]

If that parallel holds true, then IT should stay away from Lake Tahoe. (True Godfather aficionados will get the reference).

i've often felt like i've outgrown my username at kf.com in that it represented my first contact with great film ("padrino" is italian for "godfather," for those unaware), but i must applaud this particular reference to part ii. well played, VF. well played, indeed...

 

[The_Jamal]

14 shots is, indeed, a nice tight leash when the player in question is prone to chucking 20+ when left to his own devices. and "that range" is, like everything, dependent upon context. sure, it's a #2 option's FGA's in the starting unit, but it's just as easily a quality sixth man's FGA's off the bench, a manu ginobili, a jamal crawford, etc. given thomas' diminutive stature, his aversion to defense, and his limited instincts as a PG, the latter role has always been a more likely fate for him, on this particular team, at least. coach malone never waned in starting the equally defense-averse greivis vasquez in front of thomas because of factors that are not insignificant...

regardless, my point was that i am wholly unconcerned with how impressive his early season numbers may have been. i don't care how wow'ed you or anyone else may have been by a great offensive stretch by an undersized chucker on a losing team. "absolutely nuts"? yeah, i guess, though i haven't the slightest idea why that matters. it wasn't sustainable, it occurred during an overwhelmingly home-heavy portion of the schedule, and it resulted in very few wins. really, what is it that you're trying to prove regarding thomas? that, devoid of any useful context, he's an elite-level PG? please. i don't disagree with you that IT is a potent scorer, but, without context, what does it tell us, or anybody?

every one of the players on that list you provided is taller than isaiah thomas. every player on that list is a better defender than isaiah thomas. most of them have a greater share of natural PG instincts, and most of them know their place in their team's hierarchy. also, none of them except thomas are in a contract year. once again, these are not insignificant factors...

Because that's what we were debating! You claimed he wasn't a special scorer. I claimed he was. I purposefully notated twice that I'm only talking about scoring in my previous post to avoid the nonsense of "well, he's not blah, or he's not blah and the other guys are blah" I already know what and who Thomas is a player. I also know who the other guys on the list are as players. We were talking about one aspect of his game. If we include others, then the conversation obviously changes in a different direction, which I can happily discuss as well, as I have several qualms with your assertions regarding IT and the other guys on the list abilities.

I also agree and have stated he needs to take on the Manu role for us in the future, assuming Rudy Gay sticks around. As you've adamantly claimed over and over, his beginning of the year stretch was not sustainable, but I have no issues thinking he can maintain some level of that success off the bench, and thus be one of the more valuable players in the league in that position. Just as Manu was to the Spurs.

I'm not trying to prove anything with Thomas. Just to provide balance to a board that has gone off the deep with regards to who he is as a person and as a player. The conversation has divulged into him becoming a self-possessed ego-maniac who only cares about his stats/contract and nothing else. Paraphrasing of course, but many here have posted an opinion along those lines.

 

[Glenn]

If that parallel holds true, then IT should stay away from Lake Tahoe. (True Godfather aficionados will get the reference).

IT is Pacino's (padrino's) brother, Fredo?



To be more serious (why?) I see Rudy as the indispensable adviser to the guy who has the power to get things done, Boogie.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

But if you're comparing yourself to LeBron and Kobe, doesn't it mean you think you're comparable?

I'm disagreeing that what he said can be considered a comparison.

 

[Padrino]

Because that's what we were debating! You claimed he wasn't a special scorer. I claimed he was. I purposefully notated twice that I'm only talking about scoring in my previous post to avoid the nonsense of "well, he's not blah, or he's not blah and the other guys are blah" I already know what and who Thomas is a player. I also know who the other guys on the list are as players. We were talking about one aspect of his game. If we include others, then the conversation obviously changes in a different direction, which I can happily discuss as well, as I have several qualms with your assertions regarding IT and the other guys on the list abilities.

I also agree and have stated he needs to take on the Manu role for us in the future, assuming Rudy Gay sticks around. As you've adamantly claimed over and over, his beginning of the year stretch was not sustainable, but I have no issues thinking he can maintain some level of that success off the bench, and thus be one of the more valuable players in the league in that position. Just as Manu was to the Spurs.

I'm not trying to prove anything with Thomas. Just to provide balance to a board that has gone off the deep with regards to who he is as a person and as a player. The conversation has divulged into him becoming a self-possessed ego-maniac who only cares about his stats/contract and nothing else. Paraphrasing of course, but many here have posted an opinion along those lines.

well, i actually claimed that isaiah thomas wasn't a "lofty, special offensive talent." i believe such a designation is reserved for first and second options, neither of which describes thomas, in my opinion. when given a greater leash and/or when logging heavy minutes and/or when stretched beyond a reasonable number of FGA's and/or when in the absence of his more high profile teammates, IT's effectiveness as a scorer dips dramatically, as does his decision-making on the offensive side of the ball. in my mind, a truly special offensive talent doesn't come equipped with a host of conditions that need to be met in order for said player to succeed...

kevin durant is a truly special offensive talent. stephen curry is a truly special offensive talent. peja stojakovic was a truly special offensive talent. isaiah thomas is a minor offensive talent by comparison. he's generally efficient under the right circumstances and he'll put points on the board in any event, but he's best served doing so off the bench, and the team is also best served as a result. all of that said, we're not really in disagreement except in how valuable we perceive isaiah thomas to be. he does one thing really well, and i'd be more than willing to part with that one thing if it meant giving the kings a chance to improve their competitiveness on the defensive end, an area in which nobody on the roster excels...

 

[VF21]

I'm disagreeing that what he said can be considered a comparison.

I respect that but disagree.

 

[funkykingston]

I'm finding that IT criticism has reached excessive levels. And more importantly I think he's being criticized for not succeeding in a role that he shouldn't have been put in. Barring a trade deadline deal I see Thomas either walking this offseason leaving the Kings with nothing to show for it or being overpaid by the Kings to stay. And the fault for either outcome I lay at the feet of D'Alessandro and to a lesser extent Malone.

Without rehashing any of the Tyreke Evans discussion I will say that one positive (in my mind) of the sign-and-trade for Vasquez was that it gave the team a starting PG with a distributor mindset while pushing Thomas to the bench where I still think his true value lies. I never thought Vasquez was the answer at the point BUT I did see 6th man as IT's ideal role and my hope was that the Kings would find a way to upgrade the starting PG position while either trading Vasquez or letting him walk at season's end which would keep Thomas coming off the bench as a change of pace sparkplug while continuing to focus on having a pass first (and ideally defensive minded) PG starting in front of him.

I still wish PDA had put Jimmer in the Gay deal instead of Vasquez for that very reason. It would have served the dual purpose of establishing IT's free agency value as that of a top shelf 6th man scorer rather than as a starting PG which also means the Kings could have likely matched any reasonable offers to keep IT in his ideal role. Now? If IT is still on the roster at season's end I suppose we have to hope that no one throws true starter money at him.

But again, none of this is Thomas' fault. He's an energetic, versatile and aggressive scorer and could be the Bobby Jackson or Jason Terry on a better constructed Kings team. For that matter with a bigger PG (say Dante Exum?) he could actually fill a Vinnie Johnson type role in a perfect 3 guard rotation.

I've yet to see a player enter the NBA as a scorer and become a great floor general. I think pass first PGs are already molded with that mindset by the time they get to college and certainly before they reach the biggest stage. That's not to say I don't think IT can't improve as a playmaker (and a defender as only some of his limitations are physical and others are mental/effort) but that I don't think you can mold him into the type of PG that should run a team with Cousins and Gay as options 1 and 2. IT's assists come mainly on kickouts from his own penetration rather than orchestrating an offense. I've rarely seem him run a well executed pick and roll and his post entry passes are all but non-existant, which to be fair is partly due to his lack of length. Heck, I can't remember the last time IT received a pass and immediately swung it around the perimeter. He's scoring minded and that's never going to completely change.

The Kings FO and coaching staff should have done a better job finding a way to utilize that skill rather than trying to make IT something he's not and creating a conundrum in the process.

 

[Glenn]

I'm finding that IT criticism has reached excessive levels. And more importantly I think he's being criticized for not succeeding in a role that he shouldn't have been put in. Barring a trade deadline deal I see Thomas either walking this offseason leaving the Kings with nothing to show for it or being overpaid by the Kings to stay. And the fault for either outcome I lay at the feet of D'Alessandro and to a lesser extent Malone.

Without rehashing any of the Tyreke Evans discussion I will say that one positive (in my mind) of the sign-and-trade for Vasquez was that it gave the team a starting PG with a distributor mindset while pushing Thomas to the bench where I still think his true value lies. I never thought Vasquez was the answer at the point BUT I did see 6th man as IT's ideal role and my hope was that the Kings would find a way to upgrade the starting PG position while either trading Vasquez or letting him walk at season's end which would keep Thomas coming off the bench as a change of pace sparkplug while continuing to focus on having a pass first (and ideally defensive minded) PG starting in front of him.

I still wish PDA had put Jimmer in the Gay deal instead of Vasquez for that very reason. It would have served the dual purpose of establishing IT's free agency value as that of a top shelf 6th man scorer rather than as a starting PG which also means the Kings could have likely matched any reasonable offers to keep IT in his ideal role. Now? If IT is still on the roster at season's end I suppose we have to hope that no one throws true starter money at him.

As to the last paragraph, I am going to assume that the ideal trade could not be made.
But again, none of this is Thomas' fault. He's an energetic, versatile and aggressive scorer and could be the Bobby Jackson or Jason Terry on a better constructed Kings team. For that matter with a bigger PG (say Dante Exum?) he could actually fill a Vinnie Johnson type role in a perfect 3 guard rotation.

I've yet to see a player enter the NBA as a scorer and become a great floor general. I think pass first PGs are already molded with that mindset by the time they get to college and certainly before they reach the biggest stage. That's not to say I don't think IT can't improve as a playmaker (and a defender as only some of his limitations are physical and others are mental/effort) but that I don't think you can mold him into the type of PG that should run a team with Cousins and Gay as options 1 and 2. IT's assists come mainly on kickouts from his own penetration rather than orchestrating an offense. I've rarely seem him run a well executed pick and roll and his post entry passes are all but non-existant, which to be fair is partly due to his lack of length. Heck, I can't remember the last time IT received a pass and immediately swung it around the perimeter. He's scoring minded and that's never going to completely change.

The Kings FO and coaching staff should have done a better job finding a way to utilize that skill rather than trying to make IT something he's not and creating a conundrum in the process.

I think it was necessary to totally screw up our guard rotation to get Gay and that was the price we are paying. I definitely agree with the first paragraph. That is why I filled out that long forgotten poll and said that the trade for Gay would not improve the record. I still think it was a good trade but some major tidying up needs to be done to clean up the mess left behind.

I agree with the last paragraph and as much as I complain about IT, I hope I have thrown in the idea that he is not capable of doing what we wish. Complaining that he is short is one issue. I think most people understand that he is not a starter caliber pg.

 

[funkykingston]

I think it was necessary to totally screw up our guard rotation to get Gay and that was the price we are paying.

And that's part of what bugs me. It really wasn't necessary. Jimmer and Vasquez make virtually the same money (in fact Jimmer makes a bit more which would have saved the Kings money) and Fredette wasn't even part of the rotation. Now Jimmer certainly still has the potential to be something more than Vasquez but the reality is that either here or in Toronto both guys are most likely allowed to walk for cap relief at season's end.

Again, Vasquez wasn't playing well. But he was the TYPE of PG the Kings need starting (at least offensively, defensively he was terrible) and would have kept IT in his role as one of the league's best and most effective sixth men. Then in the offseason you make a move to really improve the starting PG spot, let Vasquez walk and hopefully resign IT to lead the bench.

 

[Kingster]

And that depresses the hell out of me. If you want the team dynamic, it's pretty clear IT is not the leader. If anything, I would consider Rudy Gay to be the leader, a guy who can keep everyone on the same page and going in the right direction because of his experience and veteran presence. The chemistry already built up between Cuz and Gay speaks well for the future, but not if IT doesn't get on board. I say again - Isaiah Thomas is NOT a leader.

Isaiah Thomas is the leader. So there.

 

[Glenn]

And that's part of what bugs me. It really wasn't necessary. Jimmer and Vasquez make virtually the same money (in fact Jimmer makes a bit more which would have saved the Kings money) and Fredette wasn't even part of the rotation. Now Jimmer certainly still has the potential to be something more than Vasquez but the reality is that either here or in Toronto both guys are most likely allowed to walk for cap relief at season's end.

Again, Vasquez wasn't playing well. But he was the TYPE of PG the Kings need starting (at least offensively, defensively he was terrible) and would have kept IT in his role as one of the league's best and most effective sixth men. Then in the offseason you make a move to really improve the starting PG spot, let Vasquez walk and hopefully resign IT to lead the bench.

That I assumes Toronto would take Jimmer but I absolutely get your point. I will be aggravated very much if we gave up a starting 6'6" pg who can't play defense. If I were Toronto, I'd prefer Vasquez.

 

[VF21]

Isaiah Thomas is the leader. So there.

There's a typo in my quote. It should have said "If you WATCH the team dynamic, it's pretty clear Isaiah is not the leader." And I stand by that comment. If you think he is, you and I have a totally different view on what a leader is. I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree, however, as I'm honestly not that interested in arguing pointlessly about it.

 

[Glenn]

There's a typo in my quote. It should have said "If you WATCH the team dynamic, it's pretty clear Isaiah is not the leader." And I stand by that comment. If you think he is, you and I have a totally different view on what a leader is. I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree, however, as I'm honestly not that interested in arguing pointlessly about it.

You of course know that never ending pointless arguments are part of the deal when you post here.

 

[Gilles]

And that's part of what bugs me. It really wasn't necessary. Jimmer and Vasquez make virtually the same money (in fact Jimmer makes a bit more which would have saved the Kings money) and Fredette wasn't even part of the rotation. Now Jimmer certainly still has the potential to be something more than Vasquez but the reality is that either here or in Toronto both guys are most likely allowed to walk for cap relief at season's end.

Again, Vasquez wasn't playing well. But he was the TYPE of PG the Kings need starting (at least offensively, defensively he was terrible) and would have kept IT in his role as one of the league's best and most effective sixth men. Then in the offseason you make a move to really improve the starting PG spot, let Vasquez walk and hopefully resign IT to lead the bench.

I believe, at the moment Toronto was going to trade Lowry as well, and Vasquez was needed as a stopgap. Imagine Jimmer as a starting PG on that team? Even Raptors' fans have limited patience for really bad product.

 

[funkykingston]

I believe, at the moment Toronto was going to trade Lowry as well, and Vasquez was needed as a stopgap. Imagine Jimmer as a starting PG on that team? Even Raptors' fans have limited patience for really bad product.

Good point. But while that may have been Toronto's plan but that doesn't mean PDA had to acquiesce to it. Ujiri was looking to dump Gay for salary relief however he could and apparently no other GMs were picking up the phone which is why the Kings were widely hammered for the deal despite given up no players of real value.

But what's done is done. IT is the starting PG and we'll just have to wait and see how everything unfolds from here on out.

 

[Kingster]

There's a typo in my quote. It should have said "If you WATCH the team dynamic, it's pretty clear Isaiah is not the leader." And I stand by that comment. If you think he is, you and I have a totally different view on what a leader is. I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree, however, as I'm honestly not that interested in arguing pointlessly about it.

If you watch the teamate dynamic, nobody is the leader. I'll grant you that.

 

[Npliam]

So can we put the idea that coach Malone has no other options than to play IT 40 min a game to rest?

 

[Bricklayer]

So can we put the idea that coach Malone has no other options than to play IT 40 min a game to rest?

Off of one game? No?

And really the larger issue is that even in this game Jimmer wasn't playing a position per se. Unless it be "college gunner". Dribble down the court and heave up a 26ft three isn't sustainable, and its not running anything. Its "I'm hot, and I'm going to throw this up there." And he was hot, so throwing it up there was the right move yesterday. But its not consistently going to be, and being hot like that doesn't speak to the ability to run the team, or operate against pressure that the Knicks guards don't apply to anybody. So no, if Jimmer stays yesterday might provide him a glimmer more of breathing room before the plug is pulled each game. But it didn't disprove the essential underlying issues that have kept him off the floor.

 

[Npliam]

Off of one game? No?

And really the larger issue is that even in this game Jimmer wasn't playing a position per se. Unless it be "college gunner". Dribble down the court and heave up a 26ft three isn't sustainable, and its not running anything. Its "I'm hot, and I'm going to throw this up there." And he was hot, so throwing it up there was the right move yesterday. But its not consistently going to be, and being hot like that doesn't speak to the ability to run the team, or operate against pressure that the Knicks guards don't apply to anybody. So no, if Jimmer stays yesterday might provide him a glimmer more of breathing room before the plug is pulled each game. But it didn't disprove the essential underlying issues that have kept him off the floor.

Yeah, so he came in and played the same game that IT plays where he just took shots without passing or running anything and your position is "the guy who starts and takes a whole bunch of shots without passing can't be rested because all Jimmer did was come in and take shots without passing".

It seems to me that you have made up your mind and despite Jimmer's solid play since the trade you just can't be bothered to change your opinion.

 

[Bricklayer]

George Karl on Isaiah Thomas yesterday on KHTK Sports 1140: “I don’t see enough nights where he looks content being a passer and facilitator. It seems like he doesn’t have the ego to take a 5-8 point game along with 10-12 assists even though his team is playing very well and he’s the orchestrator of that team.

I can’t deny there are times I wish Isaiah would give us more of that but in the same sense, he’s a dynamic 4th quarter player & he can be explosive…he’s saved Sacramento on many given nights.”

 

[Chupacabra]

I don't think he needs to find balance. I think he needs to be moved back to 6th man. The complaint against him is his greatest strength. Its the Kings management that is failing to use him properly.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Did someone just call in to Ross' show, and say he'd rather watch an 18-win team with Isaiah Thomas as the starting point guard, than a playoff team with Mike Bibby? I actually heard that, right? That's not just a result of me only having two hours sleep in the last twenty-four hours?