Russell Westbrook
- Thread starter Kingster
- Start date
bajaden
Hall of Famer
The 6'1" may have come from me. I reported that the commentators at the camp suggested that Westbrook didn't look 6'3". That he looked closer to 6'1". We'll find out for sure when they post the measurements. You and I are in agreement on most players, but on this one, were not totally in agreement. I have nothing against Westbrook, but be aware of what your drafting with him. At this point in time he's not a true pt guard. Could he learn the position and become one? Maybe, but the track record of players doing that is a thin one. Ask yourself what your looking for in him. Are you looking for John Stockton, Jason Kidd, Bob Cousy ( sorry, I had to throw him in ), or are you looking for Steve Francis, Dwayne Wade, etc.
My point is that we really don't know what he is for sure, and my examples are hopeful results at either end of the spectrum. He may be no better than Bobby Jackson. Truth is, there are no sure things, but I would rather draft someone that I know for sure can play the position I draft him for, and the point guard position is one of the hardest one's to fill.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
There's ball handling and then there's ball handling. Some things are learned, and some things are just instinctive. I remember the first time Payton guarded J. Will. He had never played against him before. As we know, Payton was one of the best defensive pt's in the game at the time. J. Will dribbled straight at him, faked his behind the back pass, followed by a quick cross over and left Payton standing there with a smile on his face. That, was ball handling. Great ball handlers appear to have the ball on a string. Pistol Pete used to blow my mind with some of the things he could do with a basketball. I used to think that some of these guy were born with a basketball in their hands.
We don't need a shoot first pt guard. We need a pt that makes everyone else better. If Westbrook can do that, fine. But I seriously, seriously doubt, he will ever be a pass first pt guard. And In my humble opinion, thats what this team needs.
Aenadin
Starter
im not against drafting the kid if he is a freakish athlete good skills and potential... we already have a project PG in douby which appears to be going sour IMO.. the guy they will draft would be and should be a player theus would like and use.. imo Petrie's idea of having "Versatile" players in the form of salmons, garcia Hawes (i consider him versatile cause he can pass, shoot and go down low) would help Russel westbrook (if he was drafted) play PG... he can use his athlethicism to slash inside and guard the back court while not worrying about ball rotation too much with garcia, Salmons and Hawes playing alongside him...i think some1 here said that
if he can have that slashing and defensive prowess he could be a poor man's davis,
sure we can draft DJ Aug but his size is questionable esp when he has to guard PGs whos height ranges from 6'1 to 6'4 and if Shaun livingston comes back
if he can have that slashing and defensive prowess he could be a poor man's davis,
sure we can draft DJ Aug but his size is questionable esp when he has to guard PGs whos height ranges from 6'1 to 6'4 and if Shaun livingston comes back
Sptsjunkie
Starter
As a side note, at the risk of freaking everyone here out, I am starting to believe that the safest and most Petrie-esque pick in this draft is Brandon Rush. He excels at shooting and D and can board and has a high basketball IQ. At a minimum he will be a NBA rotation player, but has the potential to be a slightly poorer man's Mitch Richmond.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Your right about one thing. Rush would be a safe pick. He sort of reminds me of another Brandon. Brandon Roy. He's not as good a ball handler or passer as Roy, but goes about business in the same quiet manner, doing a lot of the little things that win you games. I couldn't fault the pick, except for the fact that we already have a log jam at the 2 and the 3 positions. If we were to pick him, I think it would mean there's another deal in the works down the road.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
Yeah, I don't think Brandon Rush does anything for us, but I was just pointing out he's safe and a Petrie-esque pick. I agree with you on him doing all the small things. I really would not mind getting him if we had a second 1st round pick. Then we could gamble with one and get Rush with the other.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
Why do you say that?
Rush has good height, athleticism and speed for his position. He was heralded a a very good prospect for years, but lost some luster after having a mediocre season while hurt two seasons ago. Now he comes back this year and is arguably the best player on a championship team.
Read about him on any of the draft sites and they all say his plusses are his physical attributes, defence, long range shooting and intangibles. His primary weakness is his ball handling. That may prevent him from being a top 10 pick, but there is always room in the NBA for a player with an ideal basketball body who can shoot and defend.
SacKings7
Starter
I realize that, and I know he's a good player. Just my own opinion I guess. No reason for it. With that being said, I don't want to draft him because we don't need another 2/3
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Rush is more like a Shane Battier at best, he'll never be much of a scorer. But he'll provide good man defense and spot up shooting.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I really don't want to get into a discussion of how good or bad Rush is, but if he's only as good as Battier, thats not so bad. But I do think he's a better scorer than Battier. I never thought that Battier had a scorers mentality, and I think that Rush does. Were probably not going to draft him anyway, so its a moot point.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Yea, I think you're right that he could be a better scorer than Battier, it really wouldn't be that difficult since Battier isn't that much of a scorer at all. Rush is more athletic and a better finisher than Battier. So maybe like an early Eddie Jones. It's just he really doesn't have much of an in between game, he's long range shooting or drive to the basket. He never really struck me as an aggressive scorer.
PurpleHaze
All-Star
Russell Westbrook height prediction:
w/o shoes: 6'1"
w/ shoes: 6'1 3/4"
Found another mock draft board predicting Westbrook at #12 with this remark about Kings woes and his talents or lack thereof.
12. Sacramento Kings, Russell Westbrook PG/SG
Ok, if I were really the GM for the Kings, I'd probably be blitzed out of my mind at The Palms and forget that draft day had even arrived. But assuming someone dragged me away from the casino or Playboy club long enough to call in my pick, it would be for the super athletic, but inconsistent shooting Westbrook. Lucky for me, my fans had six years of Mike Bibby, so they're used to a point guard hitting around 37% from 3 pt land.
Source: insomniacslounge.com
w/o shoes: 6'1"
w/ shoes: 6'1 3/4"
Found another mock draft board predicting Westbrook at #12 with this remark about Kings woes and his talents or lack thereof.
12. Sacramento Kings, Russell Westbrook PG/SG
Ok, if I were really the GM for the Kings, I'd probably be blitzed out of my mind at The Palms and forget that draft day had even arrived. But assuming someone dragged me away from the casino or Playboy club long enough to call in my pick, it would be for the super athletic, but inconsistent shooting Westbrook. Lucky for me, my fans had six years of Mike Bibby, so they're used to a point guard hitting around 37% from 3 pt land.
Source: insomniacslounge.com
syadap
G-League
I would rather have CDR than Rush...
bajaden
Hall of Famer
You could be right. I like him a lot, and he's probably more athletic than Rush..
Gary
All-Star
yikes.. I thought he was closer to 6'4.. Standing next to Collison he looked quite a bit bigger. I can't find a pic of them standing, but here is one sitting next to each other. Notice how he is longer from the foot to the knee, and his arms are longer as well. Collison is listed at 6'1.. I think Collison will measure at 6'0 w/o shoes, and Westbrook will be over 6'2 easy. *crosses fingers!*
Attachments
PurpleHaze
All-Star
Up until last season when Westbrook sort of exploded out of nowhere he was listed at 6'2" everywhere. Coming out of high school as a not highly sought after recruit he was listed at 6'2." Westbrook's freshman year at UCLA he was listed at 6'2" - suddenly 6'3" as he started getting lots of attention his sophomore year.
I stand by my prediction of his height and will be very surprised if he makes it more than a half-inch over what I said. But, who cares to quibble over maybe a half-inch to one inch. Big guard/PG reserve Cisco Garcia at 6'6"-6'7" and is already doing the things Westbrook is said to be so great at and can shoot a helluva lot better than the UCLA product. It simply makes little sense for the Kings to draft PG experiment Westbrook with Garcia and Douby on their current roster. Only if the Kings think they may lose Udrih does it become a possible desperate pick to fill that spot with something.
You should never make a draft pick out of desperation. Now, there is a difference between drafting out of desperation and drafting for need - in the latter case, if all other things are equal (at least so far as you can project) it's totally acceptable to take a player that fills a positional need. But you don't want to skip on players you think are more talented in order to have a body filling a position next year, especially when the team is in rebuilding mode.
If we think that Beno is going elsewhere, then (barring some sort of trade) we're going to have to resign ourselves to at least one year of, say, Anthony Johnson or other replacement-level PG whether we draft a PG or not.
However, at this point I'm going to guess that we'll be drafting either Westbrook or Augustin if they're on the board. I don't think that any player obviously better than those two will be left by the time we pick, so all things being more or less equal we will draft for need - our need at PG being more profound than our need at PF.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Using your own analogy, if there's a PF thats a better player available when we pick, then we should take the PF, regardless of our need at the point.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
I would generally agree with this. You should draft based on talent more than need. Although I advocate using a tiered system, where you divide the players into tiers and at your pick you draft the player in that tier who fits your biggest need. However, you do not reach outside of the tier to draft for a position.
Exactly. I'm not quite sure how to set the tiers, but I'd think something like this:
1: Beasley, Rose
2: Mayo, Bayless, Lopez
3: Love, Gallinari, Randolph, Jordan
4: Gordon, Arthur, Westbrook, Augustin, Greene, Alexander
5: Speights, Batum, McGee, Budinger
For that tiering, we can pretty much guarantee picking out of Tier 4 at #12. Tiers 1 and 2 will be completely gone, and three 4s or 5s would have to go in front of us to have a Tier 3 drop to us. But assuming two Tier 4 players gone - unless those two are Westbrook and Augustin, we should take a point guard.
If Tiers 1-3, Westbrook, and Augustin go in front of us, we probably draft Arthur unless we think Gordon can convert to PG (Gordon apparently thinks this), or we think either Alexander (unlikely) or Greene (more likely) will be able to hold his own at the PF in the Association. At least, that's my guess for now.
Now...who are we bringing in for workouts?
You probably want to flip flop Arthur/Jordan and also maybe put Westbrook in tier 3(from what I've heard he looked good in Orlando, think I read it on ESPN).
^^ Yeah, I'd probably put Gordon in Tier 3 too, I think he'll be gone by the time we pick. I was watching a video on youtube recently about the top 5 prospects and he was ranked #2 (above Rose)
ROFL at the being above Rose thing. But yeah he is a tier 3 type of guy also.
When do they release the lists for workouts???
SacKings7
Starter
There are many great athletes in this year’s draft, but Russell Westrbrook is in an entirely different category in terms of his strength, agility and body control.
While he is still raw offensively, his play on the defensive end of the floor is simply suffocating. Westbrook can shadow just about any wing 6-7 or under and should be a top-three perimeter defender in the entire NBA almost immediately. He is superbly quick with his lateral movement and is intimidating in the air on-ball and off-ball as a shotblocker. His extremely fast hands will create many deflections, takeaways and turn routine passes and shot attempts into ones of a high degree of difficulty.
He also does the subtle things on defense well, such as attempting to prevent the ball from being swung and applying help pressure on the post. He is extremely fast at catching back up to his man on the trail after he has been screened off-ball.
Offensively, Westbrook will make a brilliant dribble move for a 3-pointer, but then he will shoot an airball on a dribble drive from the wing into the lane.
He can so quickly get into the lane and to the rim from the perimeter, as fast as anyone, even the greats. Westbrook is patient and controlled with the ball in the paint and can hang in the air long enough to alter his shot to dodge a defender and then use the glass for a bank shot; or he will be able to find an open spot-up shooter for a kick out.
He will make sophisticated moves where he creates space for himself by bouncing off contact he himself initiates for a mid-range jumper. Westbrook will also use a stutter step or a change of pace, not always relying on being able to turn the corner with his quickness.
Westbrook is just about as good as anyone I’ve ever seen at splitting two defenders, both in a fastbreak situation and in the halfcourt and thus you get a lot of Monta Ellis comparisons (Ellis can’t compare defensively and Westbrook has shown more promise as a point guard, so how high would Monta go in this draft if you were to automatically upload those two qualities to his game?).
He is by no means a great shooter at this point but he should eventually evolve into an above average one; he just needs to become more relaxed and develop greater consistency through more experience and repetition. He already is capable of shooting from 23-feet out with confidence. Westbrook must become increasingly economical with his shot selection as well; he gets too ambitious sometimes and it leads to a short brick or many many charge calls when he drives.
There is a little hitch in his form when he brings his ball to his hairline that causes some inconsistencies and inexcusable left/right misses, but his follow-through is solid and it is very compact and quick without any wasted motion. He should, however, elevate with more regularity as a jump shooter; but he is just a few minor tweaks away from having very good shooting form overall.
When he doesn’t have the ball in his hands, he moves extremely well, making weak side cuts to the bucket, smartly drifting to open space on the perimeter or getting himself low and wide when posting up a smaller man in the paint.
Westbrook also looks to move without the ball after making a pass instead of becoming a spectator.
In transition offense, Westbrook is probably at his best. He has an insanely fast dribble in the open floor, covering so much ground in a few seconds and then he has a second level of closing speed when he smells the bucket. The way he flies to the rim for dunks is already part of YouTube lore, but he has more nuances than just the speed and air arsenal. Westbrook instinctively knows how to fill lanes, time his arrival with other players and I’ve also seen him complete sophisticated crossover dribbles in the middle of a fastbreak.
He is excellent at catching the ball and looks like he can step onto a football field as a wide receiver with the way he would catch those long outlet passes from Kevin Love. He rarely fumbles the ball, catching it cleanly no matter if the pass is good or if he has to go up in the air for it and is also solid on the handoff.
His abilities as a pure point guard are difficult to judge because he has played limited minutes at the position despite the early season injury to Darren Collison. If we had a greater sample size to judge from, Westbrook would probably be the third best prospect in this draft because of how well he does everything else.
What we can judge is how Westbrook performs when doing point guard-like things. He gets can break his man down off the dribble and will intuitively draw defenders to him to set up a shovel bounce pass for a lay-up. He will also use a shovel pass to a trailer in transition for an easy dunk. When he jumpstops into the lane instead of attempting an out of control runner, his decision-making improves ten-fold and he becomes a highly effective and even imaginative passer.
His handle is very solid with either hand, but is decidedly more comfortable when he is dribbling vertically instead of horizontally or in one place when running the offense. It might be for that reason that he sometimes goes a little long around the screen on a pick-and-roll, negating some of its effectiveness.
But he is sometimes mistake prone in setting up an offense if the available options are not obvious. He’d be most ideally suited running a motion offense where he can move instead of remaining just beyond the top of the key as he sometimes did when running the UCLA offense.
When he makes a mistake on the offensive end, such as he did against Arizona when he makes a lazy pass that gets picked off, he will sprint back to follow the play for a block attempt.
Any college sophomore who plays defense at such a high level almost automatically has great intangibles. He clearly cares about the game and about getting better; his FIC40 nearly doubled from his freshman season (6.3 to 11.3).
If you rate the 2008 Draft class as pure basketball players, I’m not sure Russell Westbrook would be included in the top-20 at this point in his development; but his feel for the game is so naturally sophisticated and his fundamentals will eventually catch up with his instincts and athleticism, which will transform him into a player that can consistently make the types of plays on both sides of the floor we only see from the very elite.
http://www.realgm.com/src_fromtherafters/168/20080603/draft_report_russell_westbrook_of_ucla/
While he is still raw offensively, his play on the defensive end of the floor is simply suffocating. Westbrook can shadow just about any wing 6-7 or under and should be a top-three perimeter defender in the entire NBA almost immediately. He is superbly quick with his lateral movement and is intimidating in the air on-ball and off-ball as a shotblocker. His extremely fast hands will create many deflections, takeaways and turn routine passes and shot attempts into ones of a high degree of difficulty.
He also does the subtle things on defense well, such as attempting to prevent the ball from being swung and applying help pressure on the post. He is extremely fast at catching back up to his man on the trail after he has been screened off-ball.
Offensively, Westbrook will make a brilliant dribble move for a 3-pointer, but then he will shoot an airball on a dribble drive from the wing into the lane.
He can so quickly get into the lane and to the rim from the perimeter, as fast as anyone, even the greats. Westbrook is patient and controlled with the ball in the paint and can hang in the air long enough to alter his shot to dodge a defender and then use the glass for a bank shot; or he will be able to find an open spot-up shooter for a kick out.
He will make sophisticated moves where he creates space for himself by bouncing off contact he himself initiates for a mid-range jumper. Westbrook will also use a stutter step or a change of pace, not always relying on being able to turn the corner with his quickness.
Westbrook is just about as good as anyone I’ve ever seen at splitting two defenders, both in a fastbreak situation and in the halfcourt and thus you get a lot of Monta Ellis comparisons (Ellis can’t compare defensively and Westbrook has shown more promise as a point guard, so how high would Monta go in this draft if you were to automatically upload those two qualities to his game?).
He is by no means a great shooter at this point but he should eventually evolve into an above average one; he just needs to become more relaxed and develop greater consistency through more experience and repetition. He already is capable of shooting from 23-feet out with confidence. Westbrook must become increasingly economical with his shot selection as well; he gets too ambitious sometimes and it leads to a short brick or many many charge calls when he drives.
There is a little hitch in his form when he brings his ball to his hairline that causes some inconsistencies and inexcusable left/right misses, but his follow-through is solid and it is very compact and quick without any wasted motion. He should, however, elevate with more regularity as a jump shooter; but he is just a few minor tweaks away from having very good shooting form overall.
When he doesn’t have the ball in his hands, he moves extremely well, making weak side cuts to the bucket, smartly drifting to open space on the perimeter or getting himself low and wide when posting up a smaller man in the paint.
Westbrook also looks to move without the ball after making a pass instead of becoming a spectator.
In transition offense, Westbrook is probably at his best. He has an insanely fast dribble in the open floor, covering so much ground in a few seconds and then he has a second level of closing speed when he smells the bucket. The way he flies to the rim for dunks is already part of YouTube lore, but he has more nuances than just the speed and air arsenal. Westbrook instinctively knows how to fill lanes, time his arrival with other players and I’ve also seen him complete sophisticated crossover dribbles in the middle of a fastbreak.
He is excellent at catching the ball and looks like he can step onto a football field as a wide receiver with the way he would catch those long outlet passes from Kevin Love. He rarely fumbles the ball, catching it cleanly no matter if the pass is good or if he has to go up in the air for it and is also solid on the handoff.
His abilities as a pure point guard are difficult to judge because he has played limited minutes at the position despite the early season injury to Darren Collison. If we had a greater sample size to judge from, Westbrook would probably be the third best prospect in this draft because of how well he does everything else.
What we can judge is how Westbrook performs when doing point guard-like things. He gets can break his man down off the dribble and will intuitively draw defenders to him to set up a shovel bounce pass for a lay-up. He will also use a shovel pass to a trailer in transition for an easy dunk. When he jumpstops into the lane instead of attempting an out of control runner, his decision-making improves ten-fold and he becomes a highly effective and even imaginative passer.
His handle is very solid with either hand, but is decidedly more comfortable when he is dribbling vertically instead of horizontally or in one place when running the offense. It might be for that reason that he sometimes goes a little long around the screen on a pick-and-roll, negating some of its effectiveness.
But he is sometimes mistake prone in setting up an offense if the available options are not obvious. He’d be most ideally suited running a motion offense where he can move instead of remaining just beyond the top of the key as he sometimes did when running the UCLA offense.
When he makes a mistake on the offensive end, such as he did against Arizona when he makes a lazy pass that gets picked off, he will sprint back to follow the play for a block attempt.
Any college sophomore who plays defense at such a high level almost automatically has great intangibles. He clearly cares about the game and about getting better; his FIC40 nearly doubled from his freshman season (6.3 to 11.3).
If you rate the 2008 Draft class as pure basketball players, I’m not sure Russell Westbrook would be included in the top-20 at this point in his development; but his feel for the game is so naturally sophisticated and his fundamentals will eventually catch up with his instincts and athleticism, which will transform him into a player that can consistently make the types of plays on both sides of the floor we only see from the very elite.
http://www.realgm.com/src_fromtherafters/168/20080603/draft_report_russell_westbrook_of_ucla/
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Yeah, I had read the same article. I agree with most of it. In some ways though it reinforces some of my doubts about him. If we draft him, and I still think he'll be gone before we draft anyway, I hope he turns out as good as people think. In truth, if never becomes any better than B Jax, that would probably be OK.
CruzDude
Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
As much as I'd like to see Westbrook at #12, I feel strong he won't be there. Augustin at 5-11 isn't going to hack it. Gotta be the best available and hopefully a PF who gets good minutes THIS year.
Don't want a project 7 footer. Thats it from my end.
Don't want a project 7 footer. Thats it from my end.
Gary
All-Star
you owe me a Coke hehe j/k
w/o shoes 6'2.25 - w/ shoes 6'3.5
I think I said w/o shoes 6'2.5 and w/ 6'4 right?
PurpleHaze
All-Star
Good call on Russell Westbrook's actual height.
Hopefully, he's like Spencer Hawes and maybe still even growing a bit taller. Of course, if Spence just fills out and grows into his body soon we'd all be happy. I still say that we already have a player that does nearly all the things that Westbrook is so famous or not so famous for in 6'6" Cisco Garcia. They both play tenacious defense, both thrive in up tempo transition game - and both try to play PG - if they can ever get that incredibly demanding position down. No question, it's now likely Westbrook is gone by pick #12. We'll see... and we'll see about that Coke I owe ya!
One little edit: Imagine if Garcia developed into the super solid PG back-up that we had in slick ball handing, defensive stopper Doug Christie. Cisco already is versatile (and tall enough like Doug) to play some small forward, but has a ways to go before he could match him as a PG back up - but I think he's getting closer. Obviously, Cisco is a MUCH better outside shooter than Doug and we don't know if Westbrook will ever become a decent shooter. He could, he might, he might be the next Baron Davis PG stud - who knows?
Hopefully, he's like Spencer Hawes and maybe still even growing a bit taller. Of course, if Spence just fills out and grows into his body soon we'd all be happy. I still say that we already have a player that does nearly all the things that Westbrook is so famous or not so famous for in 6'6" Cisco Garcia. They both play tenacious defense, both thrive in up tempo transition game - and both try to play PG - if they can ever get that incredibly demanding position down. No question, it's now likely Westbrook is gone by pick #12. We'll see... and we'll see about that Coke I owe ya!
One little edit: Imagine if Garcia developed into the super solid PG back-up that we had in slick ball handing, defensive stopper Doug Christie. Cisco already is versatile (and tall enough like Doug) to play some small forward, but has a ways to go before he could match him as a PG back up - but I think he's getting closer. Obviously, Cisco is a MUCH better outside shooter than Doug and we don't know if Westbrook will ever become a decent shooter. He could, he might, he might be the next Baron Davis PG stud - who knows?
Last edited:
