Rudy Gay to play at the 4?

[VF21]

But why can't they ever pick and choose to play to our best guy's strengths. It's always go small. Play versatile ball. Positionless basketball. The only responses to questions about our size and smash mouth advantages are that our guys can also play fast. From day one that was the message and regardless of what happens on the court, they just continue to spout the same stuff.

Talking about anything that happened pre-Karl just became moot. A Hall of Fame coach is not the same as Eric Musselman, Reggie Theus, Kenny Natt, Paul Westphal, Keith Smart, Mike Malone or Tyrone Corbin.

 

[John Galt]

I am absolutely definitely going to give coach Karl at least ONE FREAKING TIPOFF before I start wailing in despair about how he is screwing up the team.

 

[sdballer]

Talking about anything that happened pre-Karl just became moot. A Hall of Fame coach is not the same as Eric Musselman, Reggie Theus, Kenny Natt, Paul Westphal, Keith Smart, Mike Malone or Tyrone Corbin.

I'm talking about this front office and their position since day 1.

 

[Iced Espresso]

But why can't they ever pick and choose to play to our best guy's strengths. It's always go small. Play versatile ball. Positionless basketball. The only responses to questions about our size and smash mouth advantages are that our guys can also play fast. From day one that was the message and regardless of what happens on the court, they just continue to spout the same stuff.

Ok two things I hope we can agree on.

1. Rudy is talented and capable of much more than your average typical small forward.
2. We have roster issues.

From there you have guys who do some things well, and some things not so well, like any team, but we have a whole lot more doing not so well at certain things than a lot of other teams do.

Say there is a soft 4, or a stretch 4 we are playing against. Like Ryan Anderson. Rudy can actually guard the guy decently.

Let's say they are un-athletic at the 3 at the same time, well dust off those shoes Williams, lets see if we can push them some.

Maybe you have a big nasty 4 like Randolph, there is no way in hell Thompson is not going to be on them unless Cousins is for some other reason.

All you are doing is looking for whatever advantage you can get with a talented guy like Rudy, and maximizing whatever minimal talents our other guys may have.

 

[SacTownKid]

I don't see the matchup nightmare. Gay isn't really a quick 3 so he won't have that advantage of some small ball 4's. He doesn't shoot exceptionally well from outside so he's not really a stretch 4. He's not a tough and versatile defender.

He's at his best when he can overpower 3's. He loses most of his advantages playing the 4.

As an iso threat any NBA PF is going to have a hard time staying on him with or without the ball. And if he learns to cut off of Cousins in the post he can get easy finishing opportunities off of screens all night long. He can also shoot over the top of almost anyone. Many PF's have tried to contest his pull up and they can't get to it. The other night he scored right over the top of Mirotic. In the end it's probably his pull up and handling game that would make him a nightmare at PF. The issue I see is what happens at SF when you put him at PF. I don't think going too small at SF and PF is an option and the only players that can shoot at a reliable level are too small to not be a tiny team if you play Rudy at PF.

 

[sdballer]

Ok two things I hope we can agree on.

1. Rudy is talented and capable of much more than your average typical small forward.
2. We have roster issues.

From there you have guys who do some things well, and some things not so well, like any team, but we have a whole lot more doing not so well at certain things than a lot of other teams do.

Say there is a soft 4, or a stretch 4 we are playing against. Like Ryan Anderson. Rudy can actually guard the guy decently.

Let's say they are un-athletic at the 3 at the same time, well dust off those shoes Williams, lets see if we can push them some.

Maybe you have a big nasty 4 like Randolph, there is no way in hell Thompson is not going to be on them unless Cousins is for some other reason.

All you are doing is looking for whatever advantage you can get with a talented guy like Rudy, and maximizing whatever minimal talents our other guys may have.

No real disagreement. Again, my position is that I'd like the office to show an inclination towards something other than small ball, fast pace basketball, especially when the best ball we've played since they took over featured our best players doing what they played best.

Honestly, is it so crazy to want to hear the front office acknowledge what the rest of the league saw earlier this season, that we excelled when we played a different style of hoops. Why can't they try to build around that instead of ignoring it in favor of their Vivek inspired style of hoops.

 

[pshn80]

Jesus.

Worst case scenario is George is so senile he actually let's PDA backseat coach the team.

Worry not. People at 63 are not senile. He may have some other malady but not that.

 

[Iced Espresso]

No real disagreement. Again, my position is that I'd like the office to show an inclination towards something other than small ball, fast pace basketball, especially when the best ball we've played since they took over featured our best players doing what they played best.

Honestly, is it so crazy to want to hear the front office acknowledge what the rest of the league saw earlier this season, that we excelled when we played a different style of hoops. Why can't they try to build around that instead of ignoring it in favor of their Vivek inspired style of hoops.

I'm not sure what they are doing most of the time.

All I know for certain is we've got a coach now who has won more games than our Sacramento based franchise.

I see two very talented people.

Maybe a couple of role players that are useful, and a whole lot of kids.

If anyone is ingenious enough to turn this motley crew into something decent after Malone got the ax I like my chances with Karl more so than just about anyone else.

 

[CurseOfTheSalmons]

Not a surprise to me. He played Wilson Chandler at 4 some.

Anyway, from his post practice interview, I gather he's concerned about about turnovers and the team's decision making, so giving Gay more minutes at 4 is probably to take some minutes away from Carl Landry and Derrick Williams (hopefully not Jason Thompson) and give them to Nik and Omri Casspi. Gay is on board with the idea based on his own post practice comments.

Also, I bet he sees Afflalo potential in McLemore and is probably eager to get it out of him.

 

[pshn80]

Please, no.

Can we just be a normal team for once?

Yes, a winning one. Gay may make a winning PF.

 

[sdballer]

I'm not sure what they are doing most of the time.

All I know for certain is we've got a coach now who has won more game than our Sacramento based franchise.

I see two very talented people.

Maybe a couple of role players that are useful, and a whole lot of kids.

If anyone is ingenious enough to turn this motley crew into something decent after Malone got the ax I like my chances with Karl more so than just about anyone else.

Fair enough

 

[Bricklayer]

Not a surprise to me. He played Wilson Chandler at 4 some.

Sometimes.

Unfortunately that's worst case nightmare.

here's the thing: George Karl used to be a 2nd tier great coach. Not Phil, not Pop, but somebody right below that. And when he did his PFs were guys like Shawn Kemp, Vin Baker, Tyrone Hill, Scott Williams, Kenyon Martin. But as his Denver tenure was drawing to a close, he was becoming an increasingly junky Nellieball coach. I have said before, if we get the old Karl back, I will call him the REAL Karl, then we have a chance as long as he's mellowed enough not to pee off Boogie. But if we get the aging junkballer that PDA is probably hoping for, then we are well and screwed, because it doesn't fit this roster, and there has been a hard cap on how far those teams go. You run, you gun, you smallball, you get a nice quick early playoff exit as soon as the games slow down and the serious teams start playing serious ball you are not used to seeing. So he wants to have a lineup with Rudy as smallball PF that he can toss out to speed up games? That's fine. he wants to start him there or play him 30min at the position? That's a terrible sign.

 

[Bricklayer]

Yes, a winning one. Gay may make a winning PF.

No, he won't. That's not how it works, especially not in the West. Ok Rudy, today you get to guard LaMarcus Aldridge/Blake Griffin/Zach Randolph/Anthony Davis/Dirk Nowitzki. Oh, and have fun checking Kenneth Faried off the boards!

you know pshn, not everything we do is a good idea just because we do it. In fact our playoff drought has lasted so long you were probably pshn70 the last time we were making good decisions.

Cross your fingers and hope that he's just planning on using Rudy in a few change of pace lineups as opposed to wasting those minutes on DWill etc.

 

[Iced Espresso]

Sometimes.

Unfortunately that's worst case nightmare.

here's the thing: George Karl used to be a 2nd tier great coach. Not Phil, not Pop, but somebody right below that. And when he did his PFs were guys like Shawn Kemp, Vin Baker, Tyrone Hill, Scott Williams, Kenyon Martin. But as his Denver tenure was drawing to a close, he was becoming an increasingly junky Nellieball coach. I have said before, if we get the old Karl back, I will call him the REAL Karl, then we have a chance as long as he's mellowed enough not to pee off Boogie. But if we get the aging junkballer that PDA is probably hoping for, then we are well and screwed, because it doesn't fit this roster, and there has been a hard cap on how far those teams go. You run, you gun, you smallball, you get a nice quick early playoff exit as soon as the games slow down and the serious teams start playing serious ball you are not used to seeing. So he wants to have a lineup with Rudy as smallball PF that he can toss out to speed up games? That's fine. he wants to start him there or play him 30min at the position? That's a terrible sign.

I think we have a pink elephant in the room with Cousins.

Are you really concerned he does not use our best player to his maximum ability with whatever pieces will build the best cohesion?

I find that hard to believe.

I really doubt he shows up at work with a simple mindset, enjoys a cup of coffee with Pete, then spends up his day figuring out how we can just run and gun.

But if he had Hardaway, Richmond, & Mullin....well maybe he'd like to get up and down the court some.

 

[206Fan]

Rudy would be a matchup nightmare at the 4 for opposing teams. I think when Rudy gets the ball deep in the paint, he's good at posting up and scoring. I think the idea of moving Gay to the 4 spot encourages him to pass the ball around a lot more. He has good quickness vs a lot of pfs. Rudy in all honestly, is a bit of a lazy defender. He sags off of his man a lot and is very slow to recovery. Guarding PFs will be less moving and running around. I don't think he's going to play PF all the time....probably against certain lineups only. Wouldn't it be weird if Gay was the shot blocking PF we've been missing all along?

 

[CurseOfTheSalmons]

Rudy would be a matchup nightmare at the 4 for opposing teams. I think when Rudy gets the ball deep in the paint, he's good at posting up and scoring. I think the idea of moving Gay to the 4 spot encourages him to pass the ball around a lot more. He has good quickness vs a lot of pfs. Rudy in all honestly, is a bit of a lazy defender. He sags off of his man a lot and is very slow to recovery. Guarding PFs will be less moving and running around. I don't think he's going to play PF all the time....probably against certain lineups only. Wouldn't it be weird if Gay was the shot blocking PF we've been missing all along?

I think Rudy Gay is blocking the same amount of shots as Nik this season, so it would be weird.

 

[rainmaker]

I watched the post-practice interview and George Karl seemed to indicate that a number of guys have been effected by hearing their name in the trade rumors.

Loose lips sink ships. And we leak like it's the foundation our basketball operations was built on.

No doubt it has an effect when guys' names are constantly popping up in rumors. The day before the deadline however it is part of the business.

 

[Iced Espresso]

Think about this for a minute.

Thompson is not likely to go anywhere. Wouldn't be nice to use him when he is very useful, then if not needed boost our bench some?

Maybe instead of using Williams because you have to, you can use his athleticism when appropriate.

Casspi is eclectic and a scrapper, maybe he roams around some too.

Nik may be able to guard a slower 3 who is not a problem on the inside, but maybe he can extend the key some and actually get some good shots with more mins occasionally.

Etc.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the context gets lost in the wailing and gnashing of teeth here, but this is what Rudy told Jason Jones (hilariously in the third person): https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/568249609291579393

 

[sdballer]

Think about this for a minute.

Thompson is not likely to go anywhere. Wouldn't be nice to use him when he is very useful, then if not needed boost our bench some?

Maybe instead of using Williams because you have to, you can use his athleticism when appropriate.

Casspi is eclectic and a scrapper, maybe he roams around some too.

Nik may be able to guard a slower 3 who is not a problem on the inside, but maybe he can extend the key some and actually get some good shots with more mins occasionally.

Etc.

When our best plan includes playing guys out of position and using Dwill more, that's not a good thing.

 

[sdballer]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the context gets lost in the wailing and gnashing of teeth here, but this is what Rudy told Jason Jones (hilariously in the third person): https://twitter.com/mr_jasonjones/status/568249609291579393

I didn't miss the context. My points above reflect my position on this.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think we have a pink elephant in the room with Cousins.

Are you really concerned he does not use our best player to his maximum ability with whatever pieces will build the best cohesion?

I am withholding judgment. He's been a darn good coach. He's also never coached a massive postup center before. Of all the inappropriate unproven big man centric coaches we could have hired, I had more hope for him than anyone else. But he's going to have to prove it, because this is not Jeff Van Gundy here. And as I mentioned, if he tries to make Rudy into a major minute PF that's a terrible sign that he isn't going to get it, which is possible. So we'll see. George has a lot to figure out here in a short time, he has probably made certain statements just to keep the geek squad happy, its not even 100% clear who his personnel will be after tommorow's deadline.

 

[Iced Espresso]

When our best plan includes playing guys out of position and using Dwill more, that's not a good thing.

I think you make do with what you have.

I think it is reasonable to use our players at their greatest strengths when and where you can.

I think when you have a bunch of pieces that don't fit all together as easy as others, you find a way to solve the puzzle.

 

[Iced Espresso]

I am withholding judgment. He's been a darn good coach. He's also never coached a massive postup center before. Of all the inappropriate unproven big man centric coaches we could have hired, I had more hope for him than anyone else. But he's going to have to prove it, because this is not Jeff Van Gundy here. And as I mentioned, if he tries to make Rudy into a major minute PF that's a terrible sign that he isn't going to get it, which is possible. So we'll see. George has a lot to figure out here in a short time, he has probably made certain statements just to keep the geek squad happy, its not even 100% clear who his personnel will be after tommorow's deadline.

Bottom line is Pete and Vivek need to give Karl, and Rudy/Cousins what they need.

No magician is capable of getting this roster constructed the way it is into a contender.

 

[sdballer]

I think you make do with what you have.

I think it is reasonable to use our players at their greatest strengths when and where you can.

I think when you have a bunch of pieces that don't fit all together as easy as others, you find a way to solve the puzzle.

The last coach that tried that got fired for doing it. If that was true, we'd play a style of ball that doesn't fit with our front offices vision. Cousins and Gay may be able to play in a faster paced, small ball offense but that isn't playing to their strengths.

 

[sdballer]

Bottom line is Pete and Vivek need to give Karl, and Rudy/Cousins what they need.

No magician is capable of getting this roster constructed the way it is into a contender.

We'll see what the next few acquisitions look like. Cuz and Gay could use 3 and d backcourt guys and a defensive presence in the frontcourt.

 

[Iced Espresso]

The last coach that tried that got fired for doing it. If that was true, we'd play a style of ball that doesn't fit with our front offices vision. Cousins and Gay may be able to play in a faster paced, small ball offense but that isn't playing to their strengths.

I have some faith in Karl.

I saw first hand players maximizing what they can do, when and where they could do it, saw some toughness, some some heart.

And it went away, fell with hardly a whimper.

If they let it happen again, I really don't know what to say.

 

[Iced Espresso]

We'll see what the next few acquisitions look like. Cuz and Gay could use 3 and d backcourt guys and a defensive presence in the frontcourt.

I'm very nervous they make a move in haste and make it even worse.

We will have some flexibility in the off season, but I'm concerned what is going to happen before the deadline.

 

[sdballer]

I'm very nervous they make a move in haste and make it even worse.

We will have some flexibility in the off season, but I'm concerned what is going to happen before the deadline.

Agreed.

 

[VF21]

The last coach that tried that got fired for doing it. If that was true, we'd play a style of ball that doesn't fit with our front offices vision. Cousins and Gay may be able to play in a faster paced, small ball offense but that isn't playing to their strengths.

The last coach that tried that wasn't George Karl.