Revisiting Hedo and Wallace ... again (or Groundhog Day)
- Thread starter reid1boys
- Start date
Hedo was a necessary loss at the time. Wallace was a bit of a mistake, but he didn't fit in with what we were doing at the time.
Why was Hedo a necessary loss? He wasnt a starter, but he was young. And it was apparent to me that this guy was going to be good. We didnt HAVE to lose him. You have to have SOME foresight into the future and it was apparent to me that Hedo could be in the future plans.
Wallace was YOUNG when we drafted him. When you draft the guy dont you know going in he is going to need 2-3 maybe even 4 years to really develop? He hardly got any playing time (not unexpected) but then when the time came when he should have gotten lots of PT on OUR team, he had already been dealt. So why look to build in the draft as you suggest, when we wont keep players long enough to see the fruits of those picks?
Wallace was YOUNG when we drafted him. When you draft the guy dont you know going in he is going to need 2-3 maybe even 4 years to really develop? He hardly got any playing time (not unexpected) but then when the time came when he should have gotten lots of PT on OUR team, he had already been dealt. So why look to build in the draft as you suggest, when we wont keep players long enough to see the fruits of those picks?
Note: I split this away from another thread, as it's a totally different topic.
Hedo was part of the deal that got us Brad Miller. Considering he was stuck behind Peja at the time, it was NOT a bad move. We had to give value to get value. He wasn't dumped, by any means. Petrie drafted him in the first place so you have to believe he felt Hedo had talent.
Wallace was the one left exposed to the expansion draft. He was very young at the time and had a lot of maturing to do to become the player he is today. The Kings were still thinking they could recover from Webber's injury and be a contender and Wallace was a work in progress.
Hedo was part of the deal that got us Brad Miller. Considering he was stuck behind Peja at the time, it was NOT a bad move. We had to give value to get value. He wasn't dumped, by any means. Petrie drafted him in the first place so you have to believe he felt Hedo had talent.
Wallace was the one left exposed to the expansion draft. He was very young at the time and had a lot of maturing to do to become the player he is today. The Kings were still thinking they could recover from Webber's injury and be a contender and Wallace was a work in progress.
We didn't protect Peeler; he had a two year contract with a player option after the first year. He opted out, and we had to leave at least one player exposed. Gerald pulled the short straw.
He was a casualty of Rick/Petrie, but not in the way you described. More so because Rick wouldn't play him and Petrie hadn't prepared as adequately as we all wish he had for the expansion draft.
But at the same time, we were still trying to push for a title (and made seven games against the stacked Timberwolves in the second round that season), and Gerald just didn't fit in. It wasn't the end of the world, and honestly, while I would like to still have Gerald, he wouldn't have made us any better than we've been the past couple of seasons.
Gary
All-Star
Wallace at the time because we had enough players in Wallace's position, and he wasn last on the bench. It was a good move a the time. We can always say "damn, I wish we kept so, and so" but who knew Wallace would turn into the player he is? I didn't, and I am probably sure you didn't. He was unproven, and thrown into a starting position.
As for Hedo we needed a center because Vlade had one year left, and Webber was injured. Pollard wasn't the solution. Miller was a good pickup at the time, and we jumped out to have the best record in the league until Webber came back. Great trade at the time. But I love Hedo. I am glad he is doign well, and I wanted to pick him up b efore the year in a trade because I had a feeling he was going to blow up once healthy. Sure enough he has!
As for Hedo we needed a center because Vlade had one year left, and Webber was injured. Pollard wasn't the solution. Miller was a good pickup at the time, and we jumped out to have the best record in the league until Webber came back. Great trade at the time. But I love Hedo. I am glad he is doign well, and I wanted to pick him up b efore the year in a trade because I had a feeling he was going to blow up once healthy. Sure enough he has!
As was mentioned earlier, he was traded, along with Scot Pollard, for Brad Miller. When you look at the role Miller played that next season, with Webber missing 50+ games, that was absolutely the right move at the time. Especially when you consider the fact that Hedo was stuck behind Peja, who only wound up averaging 25 points a game that next year.
We all thought Hedo was going to be good, especially after the 2002 WCF. Petrie drafted him, so you know he felt the same way. But for a chance to land one of the most coveted big men in the game at that time, Hedo was a necessary loss.
Kind of like the loss of Count Dooku. Vlade needed "a new apprentice, one far younger and more powerful." (Just got through watching Episode Three last night.)
The fact that he was young is exactly why he didn't fit in with where the team was at the time.
We were a "contender" in 2004. We had an opportunity to get a good, young big man and lock him up long term, and that's why we traded Hedo.
We let Wallace go because we had to let somebody go. Looking back, I really don't know who else we leave unprotected. It would have been nice to have the luxury of having an end of bencher like Kenny Thomas on the roster, and we could have left him unprotected. But we only had eight men under contract after AP opted out. (Maybe a bit more foresight was in order on Petrie's part, but I tend to think that the only way Peeler would sign with us is if we gave him a one-year option. We'll probably never know.) The Bobcats wanted Gerald, and he fit in better with where they were as a team than with where we were at the time.
And we probably would have eventually lost Gerald anyways, as I don't think the Kings would have given him the contract that the Bobcats just gave him. Again, that's just conjecture.
penixmalone
Prospect
i remember some team leaving their star player with a pretty big contract available in the expansion draft, knowing that charlotte didnt want to start off with 1 player taking up a hefty portion of their salary. does anyone remember what team/player that was?
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I've mentioned before that Wallace was just a stupid front office blunder. Completely 100% forseeable, and foreseen, by many on this board let alone around the league. Just duh. Unimportant whether he was in our plans (and at the time the critical move was made which cost us Wallace (the signing of Peeler) Gerald should have still been in the plans). But even if he was not, letting such a talent go for free clearly indicated a lack of vision and planning. A common theme nowadays.
Hedo however was burned to bring back Brad, who was supposed to be the Vlade successor. Given the contract and that we haven't won much with Brad, that may not have been all that much of a steal, but it wasn't an unreasonable deal at all. With Pollard's decline it has largely been a one for one swap Brad for Hedo, and Brad has been the better player for most of that time, and plays the tougher position to fill.
And note, if this is another half assed attempt to denigrate the effect of draft picks, we basically drafted Brad Miller. No Hedo = no Brad.
Hedo however was burned to bring back Brad, who was supposed to be the Vlade successor. Given the contract and that we haven't won much with Brad, that may not have been all that much of a steal, but it wasn't an unreasonable deal at all. With Pollard's decline it has largely been a one for one swap Brad for Hedo, and Brad has been the better player for most of that time, and plays the tougher position to fill.
And note, if this is another half assed attempt to denigrate the effect of draft picks, we basically drafted Brad Miller. No Hedo = no Brad.
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I think it's false to assume that players develop equally no matter which team they're on and that's the underlying assumption here isn't it? Gerald Wallace played one year in college during which he came off the bench (presumably so he would re-think his plans to enter the draft early). He was effectively a high school player coming into the league and those players typically take years of patient development. What he needed was playing time and he was never going to get it in Sacramento. Being selected by Charlotte was probably the best thing for him. That's the only team that would have given him a starting spot at the time and he's matured dramatically as a result. Looking back now, it would be awesome to still have him on our team but if that were the case, would he be the player that he is now? Not necessarily. I wonder sometimes how many of the young players who only last a few years in the league would have had much longer NBA careers had their circumstances been different. That's probably the biggest reason why being drafted in the first round is so important--you're buying yourself a lot more time to prove yourself. As a second rounder you become expendable pretty quick, maybe before you've had a chance to reach your potential.
So while I do bemoan the manner in which we lost Gerald Wallace, because the potential was there even as a rookie to be the player he is now, I don't wish things had happened differently because I love watching Gerald Wallace as the player he is now, and I don't know that I ever would have gotten that opportunity if he'd stayed in Sacramento.
So while I do bemoan the manner in which we lost Gerald Wallace, because the potential was there even as a rookie to be the player he is now, I don't wish things had happened differently because I love watching Gerald Wallace as the player he is now, and I don't know that I ever would have gotten that opportunity if he'd stayed in Sacramento.
I agree with what you're saying, but the potential was partly realized in Sacramento, even in that season before we lost him.
There was a midseason game against the Mavs in which Gerald pretty much had his way in the first half, but he "got hurt" in the second half and disappeared. It was pretty clear what he was capable of when he was playing his best and getting consistent minutes. It was also pretty obvious what he couldn't do (shoot the ball from outside 8 feet), and that's why he never could crack Adelman's Elite Eight.
In any event, I don't think the past three seasons, including this one, go down much differently if we still had Gerald. I mean, we all like him, but he's not the answer to our problems. He'd be nice to have, but we still have major holes even with him. And he'd just be another swing man.
No what happened was that Gerald Wallace took himself out of the game because he thought he was getting a cramp in his leg. Not that he had one, but that he thought he might be getting one. That did not sit well and his minutes IIRC dropped drastically after that.
I remember the argument as though it was yesterday. My feeling was that until/unless his leg fell off or he was driven to the court in crushing pain he should not have left the court...
Andriod_KiNg
Starter
I just dont think there ever was room for Wallace, we had Peja at the time, transition to Artest, and thats looks to switch over to Salmons pretty soon, all those guys did/are doing decent jobs, Wallace is good, but not a superstar that was must keeper and i honesty can say he might me be the same player today if he stayed on the Kings.
Hedo was good but was gone for a deal that got us rad Miller, i was fine with it.
we cant start 4 sfs at time ... can we ?
Hedo was good but was gone for a deal that got us rad Miller, i was fine with it.
we cant start 4 sfs at time ... can we ?
GoGoGadget
All-Star
This thread title is woefully inaccurate.
This particular subject done been revisited so many times that the most we could ever hope to do is revisit its most recent visitation.
This particular subject done been revisited so many times that the most we could ever hope to do is revisit its most recent visitation.
Sure you can honestly say that he might be the same player regardless but there's no way for anyone to know. Would Kwame Brown have turned out any different if he wasn't drafted first overall and coached by Michael Jordan? Would Kobe be who he is today if he had played for Charlotte instead of forcing a trade to the Lakers? What about Paul Pierce if there had been no stabbing incident in his second season? Yeah there's a common factor of talent and work-ethic that would remain the same but there's so many factors that I don't think it should just be assumed that players always turn out the same regardless of where they play and who they play with.
And if Petrie expected Gerald Wallace to be anything close to the player he is today he wouldn't have left him unprotected. I don't think I even have to argue that point, it should be self-evident. He's not a max contract player, but he's a bargain at the price he just re-signed for and a better option at SF than anything we've had since Peja's golden years. (that is debatable, but I'd be happy to have that argument with anyone)
And I think Petrie's comments in the years since have revealed why Gerald wasn't protected. He's said he would never sign a player he didn't bring in for a workout ever again (a comment which indirectly refers to Wallace). Petrie didn't think the work-ethic was there or the maturity level to ever realize his potential so it wasn't a big loss to him. Obviously Gerald proved him wrong, and good for him. No reason to slam Petrie for making a misjudgment. Nobody bats 1000. I agree with Bricklayer that the expansion draft didn't really come out of nowhere, they had warning, so there's no reason for the team to have been in the position to make that difficult choice in the first place but that's ancient history now.
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wallace
Wallace was young when the expansion draft happened. He did put up great numbers when he did get some PT (injuries/blowouts) but they were hustle stats and he couldn't shoot worth a lick, still can't. Even now, he puts up great numbers without really getting plays called, but like D Wade his style is "crash-ing" (ergo his nickname) to the basket, which is why he's hurt all the time. Now, in hindsight he's great, but at the time I remember a news reporter asking about who worked the hardest in practice, and while I don't remember who it was, there was the flip side question of who works the least/leaves practice the earliest and it was Wallace. That's why Petrie let him go, work ethic combined with the commitment another contract (much bigger than rookie one) would have meant at that time. Remember, Portland had McGrady and J O'Neal sat for years before anyone knew what they had.......hindsight's always 20/20.
Wallace was young when the expansion draft happened. He did put up great numbers when he did get some PT (injuries/blowouts) but they were hustle stats and he couldn't shoot worth a lick, still can't. Even now, he puts up great numbers without really getting plays called, but like D Wade his style is "crash-ing" (ergo his nickname) to the basket, which is why he's hurt all the time. Now, in hindsight he's great, but at the time I remember a news reporter asking about who worked the hardest in practice, and while I don't remember who it was, there was the flip side question of who works the least/leaves practice the earliest and it was Wallace. That's why Petrie let him go, work ethic combined with the commitment another contract (much bigger than rookie one) would have meant at that time. Remember, Portland had McGrady and J O'Neal sat for years before anyone knew what they had.......hindsight's always 20/20.
coolhandluke
Starter
I'm very happy for Wallace because he could get out of Sacramento and actually showcase his talent instead of being a dunking victory cigar. No matter how much talent you have, if you can't practice it at the highest level and develop confidence, you can never succeed.
As for the Kings, they were in a "win now" mode and wanted someone to contribute right away without having to put up with growing pains of a fledgling player. Does anyone think Wallace would have got minutes in that Mavs game if Peja hadn't been suspended for shoving a referee? Me either.
I don't think losing Wallace matters much as he probably would have ended up warming the bench for the rest of his rookie contract under Adelman, after which we would have lost him to free agency anyway.
As for the Hedo-Brad swap, that one is a smart trade given that Vlade was running on fumes by that time and we needed a replacement soon that can contend with the big men out west. Brad was a natural fit to the Princeton offense -- great shooting and passing with good basketball IQ. He helped right away averaging 15/10/5 in the place of injured Webber. We thought we were extending the championship window by signing Brad but our main guy was never the same. Such is life.
As for the Kings, they were in a "win now" mode and wanted someone to contribute right away without having to put up with growing pains of a fledgling player. Does anyone think Wallace would have got minutes in that Mavs game if Peja hadn't been suspended for shoving a referee? Me either.
I don't think losing Wallace matters much as he probably would have ended up warming the bench for the rest of his rookie contract under Adelman, after which we would have lost him to free agency anyway.
As for the Hedo-Brad swap, that one is a smart trade given that Vlade was running on fumes by that time and we needed a replacement soon that can contend with the big men out west. Brad was a natural fit to the Princeton offense -- great shooting and passing with good basketball IQ. He helped right away averaging 15/10/5 in the place of injured Webber. We thought we were extending the championship window by signing Brad but our main guy was never the same. Such is life.
I remember it, too. That's why I "quoted" "got hurt".
Gerald wasn't trusted by Rick anyways, and after that, he was clearly going to be in the doghouse as long as Rick was in charge. Petrie wasn't a huge fan of Gerald either (Geoff likes shooters with pretty offensive games), and I'm sure he didn't lose any sleep over leaving him unprotected.
All that being what it is, I still don't that us losing Wallace was as crushing a defeat as some people make it out to be. I think he's doing better in Charlotte than he would have ever done here in Sacramento.
I don't think you've really watched much of Gerald the past two years. He definitely can "shoot worth a lick" now. He also sets up open shots for his teammates and plays great defense both on the ball and off the ball. You're trying to reduce him to an unskilled hustle player. He does get a lot of points off dunks, putbacks, and alley oops but you make it sound like that's all he does. He's one of only three players in the last 30 years to average 2 steals and 2 blocks for a whole season. The other two, David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon. That's more than just a hustle energy guy, that's defensive dominance. He's an All Star this year for sure if he played anywhere but Charlotte.
