Revisiting 2003-2004

VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
First, KEEP THE DISCUSSION CIVIL!!! I'd like to think enough time has passed where people can have some fun revisiting the whole season but if it turns back into another vitriol-laced hate fest then it will be closed. I'm hoping a word to the wise will suffice...

Okay, here's the roster:

Peja Stojakovic
Mike Bibby
Brad Miller
Bobby Jackson
Doug Christie
Vlade Divac
Anthony Peeler
Darius Songaila
Tony Massenburg
Jabari Smith
Gerald Wallace
Rodney Buford

Most of you know what DID happen. But what might have happened if Chris Webber's injury had been such that he wasn't able to come back that season at all. (For those who may not remember, Webber came back on March 2. At that point, the Kings had a record of 44-15.)

By assuming that Webber's injury precluded him from returning, we take away the argument about whether it was Webber's decision, Adelman's decision, etc.
 
If I remember, Peja came in around 4th in MVP voting, because up until Webber's return, he had been battling with T-mac for the scoring championship with the team having that great record. I would like to think if Webber never returned, Peja would lead the league in scoring and win the MVP with the Kings being one of the top teams, but KG's season wasn't going to be beaten.
 
Peja came in second in scoring and first in free throws for that year.
 
Well, we'll never know will we? What we do know is that the team was on a roll and had great chemistry at the time. How the outcome would have changed without Webber is of course the big question. I think the best one can do is say the outcome certainly wouldn't have been any worse, and likely would have been better. Just a sad end to the chapter of a otherwise good book.;)
 
We may never know, but I thought it was worth revisiting since a lot of people like to deal in "what if" scenarios. This is the perfect opportunity for a full-blown "what if" discussion. It's not about the actual ending.
 
Hard to say. I don't think that the team wins the Championship. If I remember correctly, they had a lot of home games to open up the season (I think Phil Jackson joked about it at the time) and a pretty soft schedule the first half of the season. Their defense was suspect and they were mostly an offensive juggernaut.

Maybe they get to the WCF, maybe not. My gut tells me that they would have got bounced just the same had Chris not came back. We'll never know.
 
I know exactly what would have happened. We would have been just like the Mavs teams that won 60 plus games and lost to the warriors in the first round. Regular season wins doesn't mean anything...
 
simply put we may have gotten past minnesota doubt it with KG athleticaly supireor to Miller or Divac. IF we got past them we lose to the lakers again.
 
Minnesota and San Antonio both would have caught them, because they had, basically, the toughest schedule in the league after the All-Star Break, and there's a zero percent chance that they would have been able to keep that pace up, with or without Chris Webber. They would have ended the regular season with the third seed, and got killed in the second round by the Spurs, 4-1.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Minnesota and San Antonio both would have caught them, because they had, basically, the toughest schedule in the league after the All-Star Break, and there's a zero percent chance that they would have been able to keep that pace up, with or without Chris Webber. They would have ended the regular season with the third seed, and got killed in the second round by the Spurs, 4-1.
Click to expand...
I'd say 4 games to 2. But otherwise, sure.
 
Nothing would have changed -- second round exit was the prognosis all along. Our defensive tumble and injury woes would have virtually assured it. People like to conveniently forget we had a complete patsy schedule the first half of that season, that Bobby Jackson and Brad Miller both went down midseason that our best player that year was a noted playoff choke artist, and that our only post presence was aging in dog years (as was our defensive captain).

And also, let's kindly stow the silly Peja MVP talk again. That was a ridiuclous development at the time -- that was, no exaggeration, easily the weakest MVP race in the last 20 years. EVERYBODY was either compromised (Kobe's Colorado adventure etc.) or injured. Most years Peja wouldn't have been Top 5. Some years he would have been on the fringes of Top 10.
 
I remember watching this game
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=231113022

Blowing an 18 point halftime lead to a sub-par Western Conference team is not the mark of an elite team. I remember thinking to myself after that game, that this team was not a team that could contend for a championship.

You could pass it off as a single bad game, or a mental lapse. To me, it was a sign that the team didn't have the mental toughness, nor the physical toughness to compete with a team that was fired-up and scrappy, as you would encounter in the playoffs.
 
Insomniacal Fan said:
I remember watching this game
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=231113022

Blowing an 18 point halftime lead to a sub-par Western Conference team is not the mark of an elite team. I remember thinking to myself after that game, that this team was not a team that could contend for a championship.

You could pass it off as a single bad game, or a mental lapse. To me, it was a sign that the team didn't have the mental toughness, nor the physical toughness to compete with a team that was fired-up and scrappy, as you would encounter in the playoffs.
Click to expand...
That was a trend of those teams: fantastic first half, collapse in the second. But man, I sure do miss those 40+ point first quarters.
 
We probably would've lost to the Mavs in the first round and had the same regular season record. What people forget is that Webber was maybe our best player that year in the playoffs, even had a tripple double, and he outplayed Nowitzki in the first round. The schedule was significantly tougher when webber came back. The only reason I wish he wouldn't have come back is it stopped him from healing all the way and shot the last few all star calibre seasons he could've had. But he was needed, especially with how banged up that team was.

Realistically if we wanted to win anything we should traded for a rental like Rasheed Wallace like the Pistons did but that didn't happen so oh well.
 
what happened was inevitable, this team wouldve lost in the 2nd round. didnt we play the mavs in the first round that year? it was nashs last season with the mavs. we wouldve beaten them.... then lost to the twolves. not much wouldve changed, instead of webber missing the last three pointer... peja or bibby wouldve taken the shot...

had peja not missed that freethrow at the end of game 3 we might have won the series. he hadnt missed a freethrow in like 75 attempts leading up to that point and with 31 seconds remaing in the 4th quarter and the kings down by 5 points; peja hits a three pointer and is fouled. down 2 points he misses the freethrow. we end up going into overtime and with the kings down by one point and 1:10 on the clock; peja makes a lay up giving us a 1 point lead and is fouled... he again misses the freethrow...

we lost by 1 point.... the only downside to that season was losing gerald wallace in the offseason. thats the one offseason move that prevented the kings from beginning the rebuild. without wallace we dont have a young potential star player to build around. peja has proved to be unclutch, webber is damaged goods and divac and christies careers are done. so they decided to build around what they had left. bibby, peja and miller... they tried to bring in players that complimented their core and covered their weaknesses. they even traded doug for mobley and webber for kenny thomas. it didnt work, peja was just too big of a choker. with mobley, evans and house on the team martin didnt see any minutes and wasnt on the playoff roster.

if we had just kept wallace we wouldve had 2 players to build around who compliment each other perfectly in wallace and martin. that would have changed the needs of the team when or if they traded webber and christie. if wallace was truly expendable then he couldve been added to either one of the deals to trade for a better player than the ones we ended up with. maybe, just maybe... with wallace still on the team peja gets traded in 2005 instead of webber... he got traded that next season anyways... who knows what player could have been available at the time i really dont remember nor is it important. looking back at how everything went down, the simple trade of peja wouldve looked like a full blown rebuild by itself.

a core of bibby, peja(artest) and miller doesnt sound nearly as good as or as fun to watch as bibby, martin and wallace... regardless of what happened with webber. even with thomas or rahim as our starting pf they would be a pretty good team.

though i couldnt see any of that happening with the people that run this team. all of the things that happened are probably the only things that would have possibly happened. they just arent very good at what they do... there is someone out there that is better suited to run this team but we will never know because we are affraid that we might end up with someone worse....
 
my question is where would we be had they not done the miller trade and we still had Clark, pollard, hedo and jim Jackson? That woulda been a really strong squad even w/out Webb.
 
Showtime said:
I I would like to think if Webber never returned, Peja would lead the league in scoring and win the MVP with the Kings being one of the top teams, but KG's season wasn't going to be beaten.
Click to expand...

If the kings won the pacific that year and Peja won the scoring title then MAYBE. Who else was in the running? I think JO'neal and Bdavis?
 
est.1999 said:
my question is where would we be had they not done the miller trade and we still had Clark, pollard, hedo and jim Jackson? That woulda been a really strong squad even w/out Webb.
Click to expand...

Clark was a punk and left for the Jazz. We didn't resign Jim Jackson, which was dumb, but getting Miller was a great move at the time. Remember he was an all star that year. I loved watching him and Vlade playing together. Those two could pass the ball like no other.
 
Ryan@CU said:
If the kings won the pacific that year and Peja won the scoring title then MAYBE. Who else was in the running? I think JO'neal and Bdavis?
Click to expand...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2004.html#mvp

KG
Duncan
O'neal
Peja

Duncan's spurs won 57 games, with the Kings winning 55. If they continued winning like they were and equaled or surpassed KG's 58 win mark, with Peja winning the scoring title, then he might have had a chance.
 
miller never impressed me and softess alwys gets exposed in the playoffs. We lost 4 tough minded players and got miller. All star or not I don't think it was worth it.
 
est.1999 said:
miller never impressed me and softess alwys gets exposed in the playoffs. We lost 4 tough minded players and got miller. All star or not I don't think it was worth it.
Click to expand...

Well, he was a scrappy guy before he came to Sac. Remember the Shaq fight? Miller went from a guy who played with an edge to a guy who would get pissed and throw fits and commit stupid fouls and pout.
 
Ryan@CU said:
Clark was a punk and left for the Jazz. We didn't resign Jim Jackson, which was dumb, but getting Miller was a great move at the time. Remember he was an all star that year. I loved watching him and Vlade playing together. Those two could pass the ball like no other.
Click to expand...

Keon did not leave, he was traded. He ended up never playing for the Jazz because of his personal issues. That was one of the last trades were Petrie took someone for a ride. I also think it hurt his chances in future trades seeing how many GMs he had burned the last couple of years.
 
'89 Kings Fan said:
Keon did not leave, he was traded. He ended up never playing for the Jazz because of his personal issues. That was one of the last trades were Petrie took someone for a ride. I also think it hurt his chances in future trades seeing how many GMs he had burned the last couple of years.
Click to expand...

now that i think about it, petrie hasnt ripped off a team in a totally one sided trade since keon was sent to the jazz... every trade after that resulted in us getting long term garbage in return.
 
The Christie for Mobley trade was pretty genius, too, as Doug barely even finished the season for the Magic. Of course, we continued to bleed talent by letting Mobley walk (not that I wanted him re-signed long term, but a sign and trade would have been nice) but the trade itself was a good one.
 
That was a really fun team to watch in 03-04 up to March 2nd. What burned me the most about the Kings after March 2 was the now documented CWebb demand that he start no matter what. From that moment on one could see the downgrade of the team and their tail spin, I think losing 15 of their last 23 games (or something like that). But CWebb never relented for the sake of the team.

On the one hand we all initially supporting his attempted come back with due respect but on the other everyone, fans and team members alike, seeing the fact that it was not working, having him start right away and never again be able to be more than 60-70% of his former self. The hurt as a fan was as bad as the losing for me. From that fateful month and a half the Kings never recovered.

Say what you will about Brad Miller, he played his best ball up to then and the bench really stepped up offensively. But good news was the bad news: a good defense is an overpowering offense. Without a healthy CWebb they could not continue in that same vein.

Four and a half years later the first glimmer of real hope has finally shown up.
 
Showtime said:
Well, he was a scrappy guy before he came to Sac. Remember the Shaq fight? Miller went from a guy who played with an edge to a guy who would get pissed and throw fits and commit stupid fouls and pout.
Click to expand...

Well it wasn't much of a fight! Thank god, for Millers sake, and thank god Shaq missed with that punch. I think Miller just mellowed with age, like a fine Wi....., well, you know what I mean.:p
 
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