Return to Small Ball

With the pieces Petrie has acquired, I wouldn't be surprised if coach Smart return to small ball. That could very well mean more Tyreke at the three.

Starters:
Thomas
Thornton
Evans
Thompson
Cousins

Certainly not advocating for this, but the starting line up above seems to fit the collection of talent. I could see each starter getting about 30 minutes a game, so that's at least 150 of 240 minutes accounted for. Ideally, there would be 3 more players worthy of 30 minutes a game, forming a solid, 8 man rotation. The Kings don't really have those guys as I only envision Brooks as a 30 minute guy at most. Robinson probably isn't ready for all those minutes. But I would look at the core bench as follows.

Bench:
Brooks
Salmons
Johnson
Robinson

I've included Salmons and Johnson since they are both versatile and may prove worthy of rotation player status.

It's my opinion that the Kings are due for some pruning of the roster. I have the following players available for trade with the intent of a 2 or 3 for 1 deal that can add either a starting quality small forward (Tyreke can be moved back to the 2) or a quality back up big man with premier shot blocking ability (they currently have no true center depth).

Trade:
Fredette
Garcia
Honeycutt
Outlaw
Hayes

I'm probably similar to many other Kings fans in over rating Kings players, but I would think that Fredette and Honeycutt would have some value as low cost potential guys. Garcia is an expiring and would likely bring a bit of value as well. Outlaw and Hayes may be harder to deal, although Hayes may still have some suitors left.

So considering the available pieces listed, what potential deals are out there?
 
If Evans starts at the 3, he may not make it through the year in Sacramento, and Smart is probably on the way out as well. That, and there will be an epic level of wailing and gnashing on this board, mostly coming from yours truly.

Ideally, we need to move two of our SG/SFs and bring back a larger body in return prior to the start of the season, but I don't know if that is happening. It's been said before that the starting lineup will probably be:

Cousins
Thompson
Johnson
Evans
Brooks

Which seems to be as balanced as it gets in Kings land. Johnson may surprise by consistently hitting an outside jumper and Brooks will need a little return to form, but it's not as bad as being small at three positions, which I don't know that anyone can argue that it went successfully last year.

Then you have as a bench:
Hayes
Robinson
Salmons
Thornton
IT

Which, honestly, if all 5 of them are out there at once against some backups, probably won't kill us. Thompson will likely sub in at the 5 as well. Here's where our deficiency in another big man hurts, but I'd rather be undersized at the 5 for now with good rebounders in Thompson and Robinson instead of being really undersized with a smallball lineup when Cousins gets into quick foul trouble. Then, your smallball lineup would be:

Thomas
Thornton
Evans
Thompson
Hayes


Oy vey.


As far as trade chips go, I think you're mostly right. We do want to move Hayes, but only if we're getting size back in return and he's packaged with someone else. I think Garcia is still a good steady influence to have, and his expiring will have more value near the deadline. As much as I bag on Outlaw, he might have some use to us yet. Considering the relative value of his contract, I'd like to see.
 
I could almost be fine with a perimeter including Reke at the 3 IF the team had some stud defending the basket. But there isn't one, and a run and gun team isn't exactly conductive to the team's best player.
The team needs to find some way to package Thornton and another piece for a legit SF who can shoot or play D. It's so obvious to us fans, you have to think Petrie sees it too.
 
I think if Smart did this, even the Maloofs would understand his incompetence. Unlike what some people think, the Maloofs have not been hesitant about firing incompetents. Their problem is who they hire. Two moves that Petrie has made SO FAR make small ball an idiotic move. Petrie has acquired two people with significant skill that boxes Smart into a corner.

Last year we had two rotation players over 6'6". I am ignoring Greene. That's pretty inadequate. We have added TRob and JJ. TRob gives us a solid 3 man rotation of bigs and JJ gives us the defensive minded SF who also can shoot the three which, when you think about it, is not an easy commodity to acquire. I don't know if he is tough but at 6'9" and 248 pounds, he sure should be. In listening to Petrie, he has clearly picked TRob to be the eventual starter. The trade for JJ was made to get us a starter. If he simply acquired JJ because he was a good deal, it was silly and with our collection of mediocrity at SF, I doubt if he wanted to add yet another mediocre peice simply because it was at a bargain basement price.

To go to small ball again is indefensible. Not only is it a misuse of personnel but may cost us the allegience of Tyreke.
 
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BTW, why do some people think JJ is not the defensive, three point shooting starter? It seems there is a lot of gnashing of teeth (thank you, Spike) because we don't have a starting SF. Not much offensively is asked of a SF with the other starters we have. We not only don't need one who can score, we don't want one who feels a need to score. We haven't switched to being a great defensive team but JJ at SF and Tyreke at SG or whatever we might call the position he probably will be playing, we have made a start. Rome wasn't built in a day and the Kings may take longer.

So why do we ignore JJ? My big question about him is if he is agile enough to handle quick SFs but with TRob on the floor at the same time, perhaps TRob could switch on the quick SFs. That's thinking too far ahead, I think, but let us remember one of TRob's major assets is his quickness and outright straightline speed.
 
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I don't really even want to see Tyreke doing spot duty at the 3, but my guess is that if he spends the year as the starting SF he'll sign elsewhere after this season. Apparently he hated being off the ball completely and forced to guard bigger SFs and I don't blame him, it's the wrong spot for him.

My guess is that the starting lineup is actually:
Thomas
Evans
Johnson
Thompson
Cousins

With a bench of:
Thornton
Brooks
Robinson
Salmons

Quite honestly, I think the biggest decision for the Kings is whether they are committed to Tyreke. I would hope the answer is yes and that he has a big year, but if not, they'll want to move him either this summer or before the trade deadline for either a starting SF or PG.

If they are committed to Tyreke then I think the trade bait to round at the roster shapes up like this (in order of value as a trade chip):

Thornton - Good scorer that could be part of a trade to solidify the starting lineup. Especially if he bristles at the notion of coming off the bench as a sixth man
Garcia - Basically an ending contract which is a valuable piece in a trade. Would be unfortunate to lose such a team first guy but I doubt he's back next season anyway. The bigger question is if the Maloofs would deal him for a player with a contract that runs past this year

Then a big drop off to:

Fredette - basically a gamble for team looking to buy low and hoping Jimmer develops similar to JJ Reddick and can be a scorer/shooter off the bench on a good team
Hayes - Not a lot of value but is a decent fourth big and glue guy on a good team. Assuming they don't nab Dwight Howard, Houston might be interested in getting him back
Outlaw - Mediocre player but on a decent contract.
Honeycutt - 2nd rounder who has shown nothing in the NBA. A team could take a flyer on him as a low cost add-in to a trade but he's not really an asset that will net anything

And of course the team could trade guys like Thomas, Brooks or Robinson, but Thomas is a bargain who I would love as a change of pace guard off the bench, and the team doesn't really know what it has in Brooks or TRob to think about trading them now.

That's how I see things. Whether Geoff is actually actively seeking trades I don't know. I certainly hope so since a 2 for 1 trade would let them bring Terrence Williams back which I'd like to see.
 
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BTW, why do some people think JJ is not the defensive, three point shooting starter? It seems there is a lot of gnashing of teeth (thank you, Spike) because we don't have a starting SF. Not much offensively is asked of a SF with the other starters we have. We not only don't need one who can score, we don't want one who feels a need to score. We haven't switched to being a great defensive team but JJ at SF and Tyreke at SG or whatever we might call the position he probably will be playing, we have made a start. Rome wasn't built in a day and the Kings may take longer.

So why do we ignore JJ?

I personally like JJ a lot, and think he can be a fine SF. But he's in no way a great or even good 3pt shooter.
Johnson is clearly the team's best SF and should start there, but is that a good thing? And similarly, Reke and Thornton are both deserving of 35 minutes, and it's not coming from PG, so what does that mean?

If Thornton is moved for a good SF, at the very least there is a backup plan in case JJ doesn't work out (remember the last JJ?). At best, the team will have a good starting SF, and a very solid JJ coming off the bench as the backup combo forward.
 
I'm with funky. I have had the idea of a 2 for 1 trade involving Thornton and perhaps Outlaw for a great SF but with the acquisition of JJ, I'm not sure what we should do. We have added 3 rotation players to a team that already seemed to have 9 rotation guys. :) I think we need the team to sort themselves out on the court before a trade happens. There are so many "ifs" that need to be answered. I think we are in much better shape than last year except for the coach and owners.
 
I think we are in much better shape than last year except for the coach and owners.
Let me add Petrie on that list. He is the GM and actually the one who assembled these poor products we see on the court year after year.
 
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Trade:
Fredette
Garcia
Honeycutt
Outlaw
Hayes

I'm probably similar to many other Kings fans in over rating Kings players, but I would think that Fredette and Honeycutt would have some value as low cost potential guys. Garcia is an expiring and would likely bring a bit of value as well. Outlaw and Hayes may be harder to deal, although Hayes may still have some suitors left.

So considering the available pieces listed, what potential deals are out there?

People do understand that there is a min salary cap and they have to have 13 players on the team?

Are you trading our left overs for a rotation player? So now we have to trade the outgoing rotation player. Or are we trading leftovers for leftovers? In which case, what is the point?
 
People do understand that there is a min salary cap and they have to have 13 players on the team?

Are you trading our left overs for a rotation player? So now we have to trade the outgoing rotation player. Or are we trading leftovers for leftovers? In which case, what is the point?

The Kings are well above the minimum salary level and are in fact right up against the salary cap at the moment, so that's not really an issue.

I would hope that the goal of a trade would be to bring back a starter, preferably at the SF or PG spot in a 2 or 3 for one deal. If that happens, the Kings would simply need to sign a warm body or two to fill out the roster. Personally I'd like Terrence Willams back. In fact, I'd prefer him over Salmons, Outlaw, Honeycutt and probably Fredette.
 
I don't really even want to see Tyreke doing spot duty at the 3, but my guess is that if he spends the year as the starting SF he'll sign elsewhere after this season. Apparently he hated being off the ball completely and forced to guard bigger SFs and I don't blame him, it's the wrong spot for him.

My guess is that the starting lineup is actually:
Thomas
Evans
Johnson
Thompson
Cousins

With a bench of:
Thornton
Brooks
Robinson
Salmons

Quite honestly, I think the biggest decision for the Kings is whether they are committed to Tyreke. I would hope the answer is yes and that he has a big year, but if not, they'll want to move him either this summer or before the trade deadline for either a starting SF or PG.

If they are committed to Tyreke then I think the trade bait to round at the roster shapes up like this (in order of value as a trade chip):

Thornton - Good scorer that could be part of a trade to solidify the starting lineup. Especially if he bristles at the notion of coming off the bench as a sixth man
Garcia - Basically an ending contract which is a valuable piece in a trade. Would be unfortunate to lose such a team first guy but I doubt he's back next season anyway. The bigger question is if the Maloofs would deal him for a player with a contract that runs past this year

Then a big drop off to:

Fredette - basically a gamble for team looking to buy low and hoping Jimmer develops similar to JJ Reddick and can be a scorer/shooter off the bench on a good team
Hayes - Not a lot of value but is a decent fourth big and glue guy on a good team. Assuming they don't nab Dwight Howard, Houston might be interested in getting him back
Outlaw - Mediocre player but on a decent contract.
Honeycutt - 2nd rounder who has shown nothing in the NBA. A team could take a flyer on him as a low cost add-in to a trade but he's not really an asset that will net anything

And of course the team could trade guys like Thomas, Brooks or Robinson, but Thomas is a bargain who I would love as a change of pace guard off the bench, and the team doesn't really know what it has in Brooks or TRob to think about trading them now.

That's how I see things. Whether Geoff is actually actively seeking trades I don't know. I certainly hope so since a 2 for 1 trade would let them bring Terrence Williams back which I'd like to see.

I think it's the other way around: if Tyreke's performance at the two-guard is very good, safe to say the Kings will commit to Tyreke. If it isn't, safe to say they won't. I would think that the assessment would occur in training camp and preseason. If they think Tyreke is the 2-guard of the future, then they should trade Thornton asap, not the regular season. With backup minutes Thornton's value would degrade, and maybe his attitude as well. The same would hold for Tyreke if he doesn't work out at the two. If Evans doesn't appear to be the 2 they are looking for, then it's time to cut their losses. If Evans does go, then I would expect them to go after a big outside shooting 2 guard because they already know that Thornton isn't their 2-guard of the future and they wouldn't want to pair Thornton with a smaller pg, anyway. If Thornton goes, then it could be in a trade for any position other than center.
 
I think it's the other way around: if Tyreke's performance at the two-guard is very good, safe to say the Kings will commit to Tyreke. If it isn't, safe to say they won't. I would think that the assessment would occur in training camp and preseason. If they think Tyreke is the 2-guard of the future, then they should trade Thornton asap, not the regular season. With backup minutes Thornton's value would degrade, and maybe his attitude as well. The same would hold for Tyreke if he doesn't work out at the two. If Evans doesn't appear to be the 2 they are looking for, then it's time to cut their losses. If Evans does go, then I would expect them to go after a big outside shooting 2 guard because they already know that Thornton isn't their 2-guard of the future and they wouldn't want to pair Thornton with a smaller pg, anyway. If Thornton goes, then it could be in a trade for any position other than center.

I think it's safe to say we agree for the most part.

Tyreke doesn't want to play the SF spot and the FO/coaching staff has said he won't. Thornton and Tyreke didn't mesh all that well as a starting backcourt. IT played well last year and is slated to start at PG with Brooks backing him up. The Kings acquired Johnson to play SF and also have Salmons, Outlaw, Garcia and Honeycutt at that spot.

Looking at all those factors it seems clear that either Tyreke will start at the 2 with Thornton backing him up or MT will start at the 2 with Evans backing him up. Either way, one of the three most talented members of this team will find himself on the bench and in a numbers crunch. And thus it makes the most sense to deal one of them sooner than later before their stock takes a hit.

In a perfect world Thornton and Garcia would be traded for a talented but overpaid SF (Iguodala, Granger and Gay would all work salary wise) and the Kings would resign Terrence Williams to back up Tyreke at the 2 and occasionally play with him in the backcourt.

But the much more likely scenario is that no deals are made, Thornton loses trade value as a result of his decreased minutes and increased unhappiness and this mismatched Kings team limps along through another disappointing season. I'm not normally so pessimistic, but we're not being given reason for optimism based on the moves of the front office this offseason.
 
I thought Smart already said Evans wouldn't be playing at the 3 this year?

What Smart says and what Samrt does can be two totally different things. BUT, I think it was made quite evident to both Smart and the organization that Reke will not tolerate anymore of the SF nonsense when his agent blew through town in the spring. That message I think has been passed down to Smart, and so I really don't expect to see it for more than spot minutes. Doing so would have to result in a quick in season trade of Reke, unless you want to sit on a disgruntled ineffective guy all year until he leaves you at year's end.

I actually disagree with Bajaden on that point. Petrie is the steward of the franchise. Smart is nothing yet. A nobody coach on the last year of his contract. Yes you DO tell that coach what to do, at least in regards to major iasues with major personnel. You don't let any passing Musselman/Theus/Natt or whoever make stupid decisions that force you to make franchise-altering roster moves.

P.S. As an aside, let me mention that I have more than half a notion that Petrie ok'd the Reke at SF experiment in the first place. Remember Chuckles the hick always bleating about how Reke could play SF on the Kings telecasts? I've long been suspicious when he takes his nonsensical stances that he, as a member of the Kings front ofice in name at least, would not take those stances unless he knew how we as a franchsie were thinking. Then people forget that Geoff Petrie was on the same plane with the team when that switch was made He had accompanied the team out on the East coat road trip ostensibly to do scouting. But I would bet dollars to doughnuts he was gauging our own team as well, and you know he and Smart were chatting. Then Smart makes the move a couple of days into the trip. Hard to see that being done under those circumstances without at least a tacit approval by Petrie. But it did not work. And gee, shocker. Its embarrassing that I could tell these supposed basketball minds these things and save them their blundering. And Reke got lost. His agent hit town. And Reke finally woke back up when playing SG in place of Thornton for the final games of the season. I don't think Reke starting the season at SF is going to be acceptable no matter what Smart's smallball loving heart may tell him.
 
Smart said Tyreke would be the PG but I don't know when to take him seriously.

I know that at my age, my memory is sometimes suspect, but I have no memory of Smart saying that he would start, or even play Tyreke at PG this coming season. He did imply that moving Tyreke to the SF position was done to give Evans a different prespective of the game. Its been widely stated throughout the Kings orginization, that they don't think PG is Tyreke's best position. So to my mind, that leaves only one position available, and the one I think Tyreke is best suited for. SG!

Tyreke is an excellent offensive player, with only one deficiency, a good mid-range jumpshot. He doesn't need to be a good 3pt shooter to be effective. Just ask Wade. He also doesn't need the responsibility of creating for others as his primary job. I see him as our starting SG. Hopefully the Kings do as well.
 
It was on a video interview that was posted here but it's not worth looking up. What Smart says seldom has a shelf life of more than a few weeks. Of course I could be making it all up.
 
It was on a video interview that was posted here but it's not worth looking up. What Smart says seldom has a shelf life of more than a few weeks. Of course I could be making it all up.

I saw it as well.
 
Lately there's been a bit too much of the coaches and FO saying the right things and doing the wrong things. Smart saying that Tyreke was a guy who needed to have the ball in his hands and that he wasn't a small forward, just before moving him to . . . small forward. Or Petrie saying the team needed outside shooting and a rim protector and then acquiring neither.

And while in some ways I like Brooks as a player, his signing is another example. The rumblings have been that the FO doesn't consider IT to be starting quality on a good team, primarily (I'd assume) because of his size. So what do they do? They go out and sign another tiny, waterbug PG who plays at a high tempo, is a good shooter who calls his own number a fair amount and who generally has the same strengths and weaknesses as Thomas.

Why not go after a bigger, defensive PG who could pair with both Thorton AND Tyreke and even occasionally play with IT as well. A Devin Harris type. Instead our second unit backcourt of Thorton and Brooks is going to be undersized and weak defensively. Worst of all, I can all but guarantee we'll see Thomas and Brooks paired together at times next season.

Maybe it really was not a large enough sample size or perhaps there were attitude issues behind the scenes that I'm not aware of but I certainly would have preferred to resign TWill than ink Brooks based on his play to finish last year. It certainly seems like he would have given a lot more versatility to the backcourt rotations. And I'd MUCH rather see Tyreke back to running the point for stretches than I would seeing him swing to the SF.
 
Why not go after a bigger, defensive PG who could pair with both Thorton AND Tyreke and even occasionally play with IT as well. A Devin Harris type. Instead our second unit backcourt of Thorton and Brooks is going to be undersized and weak defensively. Worst of all, I can all but guarantee we'll see Thomas and Brooks paired together at times next season.

Tyreke back to running the point for stretches than I would seeing him swing to the SF.

First, who is the big, defensive big that was available? Devin Harris, I believe, had 9 to 10 million dollar salary. It would be tough to convince Utah to trade him for Hayes and Outlaw or something like that.

Tyreke isn't a PG or SF. He's a SG. As soon as the Kings and himself admit it, the better the team will be. The problem is the team has 2 SGs trying to play PG - Tyreke and Jimmer.

People give Smart a hard time ... I like the guy. He turned Cousins around, that was a huge positive in my mind. He wasn't scared to realize that Isaiah was our best and only true PG last year. He couldn't take Evans or Thorton off the starting rotation because the team didn't have enough talent, and they are in the top 3 players on the team.

Here's what I think will happen....

Brooks
Evans
JJ
Thompson
Cousins

Coming off the bench

6th - Thorton
Isaiah
Hayes - (in shape Hayes)
Robinson
Salmons

Not playing except garbage time

Jimmer
Outlaw
Garcia
Honeycutt

That's how it should be. The first 10 are good nba players. The other four aren't.
 
Here's what I think will happen....

Brooks
Evans
JJ
Thompson
Cousins

Coming off the bench

6th - Thorton
Isaiah
Hayes - (in shape Hayes)
Robinson
Salmons

Not playing except garbage time

Jimmer
Outlaw
Garcia
Honeycutt

That's how it should be. The first 10 are good nba players. The other four aren't.

I Agree except Bench should only include Hayes if the opposing Center is 6'9" or less, or Foul trouble, or ingury

With Hayes and Trob up front this bench line up is gonna kill us on size alone, 1,2,3 spots all smaller too

Maybe a 3 man rotation of bigs might work
 
First, who is the big, defensive big that was available? Devin Harris, I believe, had 9 to 10 million dollar salary. It would be tough to convince Utah to trade him for Hayes and Outlaw or something like that.

Tyreke isn't a PG or SF. He's a SG. As soon as the Kings and himself admit it, the better the team will be.

There weren't a lot of names to get excited about in free agency but Ramon Sessions, Leandro Barbosa, Kirk Hinrich and even DeLonte West were/are available as a backup point or combo guard to spell IT. Even Terrence Williams could have been resigned to add depth and flexibility in the back court. Is Aaron Brooks a better player than most or all of the players on that list? Yeah. Is he the best fit? I'd say definitely no.

For that matter the Kings could have drafted Lillard instead of Robinson. I definitely expected more out of Robinson in the summer league, but even on draft night I didn't see him as a great fit next to our only real cornerstone player. Or they could have traded down with Houston and picked up Lowry who gives a different look and feel than Thomas.

Again, I think Brooks is a fine backup PG, but not for this team. And in a larger sense it simply doesn't feel like Petrie and the front office have any sort of a plan in terms of building this team.
 
Well, I know this much...if our starting 5 is:
Cousins
Thompson
Johnson
Brooks
Evans

With Thornton, Robinson and Thomas off the bench looks ALOT better than anything we've put on the floor the past 5 years...we've endured far worse lineups on the floor than this.
 
I'll say what I have been saying all along. I think the three additions to the team all upgraded the team. I think with the amount of cap space we had, we did well. I do not think they are perfect (Brooks in particular) but I don't know how much the "perfect" players would have cost. To sign free agents, we either needed to squeeze all the salaries under the salary cap or use the MLE. We are a few hundred thousand under the cap, I think. I think that's pretty efficient.

I REALLY hope the movement of players is not over and there are a few months left for trades to be made so more can be done. There is still room for one huge trade as we have some reasonably skilled players that might help another team that has a rim defender or a tall, pass first, defensive minded PG. I doubt if any move will be made at SF as I suspect Petrie thinks he has done as much as possible and frankly, we don't know what we have. JJ might be darn good. I am hoping and certainly don't want a trade for a real starting SF to try to corner the NBA market on SFs.

I can't specify a trade but to pry loose a great player from another team we need to offer a replacement player at the position and an additional player to fill the other team's needs. For instance, some team might have a great shot blocker and might need a SG that can score. They might go for a packaging of JT/Hayes and Thornton. (Not sure I like this one but it's meant to be an example) Those are just examples so don't anyone wet their pants. :) The 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 trade can improve our team a great deal and specifically I would target the shot blocker. Who? I'll let the people who know the NBA's players better give a reasonable target.
 
Well, I know this much...if our starting 5 is:
Cousins
Thompson
Johnson
Brooks
Evans

With Thornton, Robinson and Thomas off the bench looks ALOT better than anything we've put on the floor the past 5 years...we've endured far worse lineups on the floor than this.

I wonder how thomas would take that, to me he earned the starting spot and its not like we accuired someone who is significantly better, heck brooks didnt even play in the NBA last year, brooks has to earn that starting spot.
 
I know that at my age, my memory is sometimes suspect, but I have no memory of Smart saying that he would start, or even play Tyreke at PG this coming season. He did imply that moving Tyreke to the SF position was done to give Evans a different prespective of the game. Its been widely stated throughout the Kings orginization, that they don't think PG is Tyreke's best position. So to my mind, that leaves only one position available, and the one I think Tyreke is best suited for. SG!

Tyreke is an excellent offensive player, with only one deficiency, a good mid-range jumpshot. He doesn't need to be a good 3pt shooter to be effective. Just ask Wade. He also doesn't need the responsibility of creating for others as his primary job. I see him as our starting SG. Hopefully the Kings do as well.

Zing ! I asked the samething and was jumped on. Video was never bumped where Smart said Evans was going to be the PG. I remember it the same way as you.
 
I wonder how thomas would take that, to me he earned the starting spot and its not like we accuired someone who is significantly better, heck brooks didnt even play in the NBA last year, brooks has to earn that starting spot.

They can battle it out on the court. Problem solved. :)
 
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