tyrant
Starter
i had high hopes for martin when he came into the league. honestly i did. but he's not a franchise player right now. dont think he will be
Rebuilding
- Thread starter steelevt
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i had high hopes for martin when he came into the league. honestly i did. but he's not a franchise player right now. dont think he will be
JerN820
Bench
There is no doubt there are areas he needs to work on, but Martin is still only 25 years old and his scoring average has gone up consistantly. As for him being a franchise player? That debate is probably still out there but he's a very solid player none the less. I know it's hard to see some other players out there at his age stepping up to another level, but I think he's done quite well for being a late first round pick a few years back.
Well, let's review Martin's history thus far (I think kennadog may have already done this but I'll repeat for emphasis):
Kevin Martin came to the Kings with the 26th pick of the 2004 draft as an underclassman out of Western Carolina State. VERY few Kings fans had ever heard of him and his pick was met with anything from puzzled looks to disdain.
In his first year, Martin was given very little opportunity to show his stuff and, again, a majority of Kings fans were convinced he was a major mistake.
For the most part, the general opinion of Kevin Martin was that he was going to a one-contract player who would never see significant playing time, would never start and would certainly never receive a lucrative NBA contract.
Thus far, Kevin has pretty exceeded every single expectation of him. And he's still young with a bright future in front of him. Just how exactly is that a disappointment?
You can possibly say he's a valuable commodity if you're trying to trade (although even that argument would not be at all difficult to shoot down) but to act as though he's been disappointing is just flat out ridiculous.
tyrant
Starter
see, i thought martin could be a franchise player. but he's just not there. you couldnt look anyone in the eye and say we can win a title with martin as our best player. this argument is kinda shifting in the wrong direction. i never said martin wasnt a gifted player.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
I really don't see how you could say Martin has disappointed at all.
At first, people said he would be out of the league. He's still here
Then they said he would never be something special. He averaged 20 ppg in his third year.
Then they said he wouldn't ever be a good player off the dribble. He would always be a good scorer off the dribble. He proved that he could do that in his fourth year.
Now people are saying he will never make his teammates better. Will he? I doubt it, but I've learned not to count out the possibility.
At first, people said he would be out of the league. He's still here
Then they said he would never be something special. He averaged 20 ppg in his third year.
Then they said he wouldn't ever be a good player off the dribble. He would always be a good scorer off the dribble. He proved that he could do that in his fourth year.
Now people are saying he will never make his teammates better. Will he? I doubt it, but I've learned not to count out the possibility.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Tyrant, your starting to lose credibility with me now. Why, would you think that a player drafted as low as Martin would be a franchise player, expecially when you say that the Kings haven't done anything through the draft since the beginning of time. I don't know where you think we got Peja, J. Will, Cisco, Funderburke, Michael Smith, Corliss, and Martin from. None of them were franchise players, but they're the type of player you need on your team when you do find a way to aquire a franchise player. You don't accomplish anything by trading off the young players you develop unless you can get remarkably better by doing it.
Its one thing to like or dislike a player for whatever reason, but its quite another to completely ignore any or all accomplishments of an organization.
I'm pretty sure your talking about the immediate organization, but if you want to go back a little farther I could bring up L. Simmons, Ricky Berry, Otis Thorpe, Vinny Del Negro, Walt Williams, and who forget someone named Reggie.
tyrant
Starter
my beginning evaluation of martin was wrong. unfortunately. i thought he'd be alot better. a franchise player can come from anywhere. doesnt have to be the top pick or within the top 15. jermaine oneal 17th pick, nash 16th pick, boozer 2nd round 35th pick, david west 18th pick. the list gets longer. you would agree that these guys are all franchise players correct?
ONE example (Boozer) of someone drafted lower than Martin doesn't prove your case, tyrant. The rest of your list is top 20 draft picks and there's a considerable gap between where they were drafted and what the expectations were.
And I'm truly sorry if I'm being a pain in the arse about this but I remember very well those FEW fans around here who were on the Martin bandwagon from the beginning and I don't recall you among them, either under this name or the name you used previously.
But be that as it may, are you truly saying you thought a 26th pick would be a franchise player? Especially one that wasn't known by anyone? Hell, Kingsgurl, 1kingzfan, 6th and I have been bullish on Martin from the beginning - and I mean REALLY bullish - but I'm pretty sure none of us would have gone so far as to make that kind of prediction.
Martin has already come further than pretty much anyone not named Martin would have expected. Sorry, but I just don't understand your rationale in any way.
And I'm truly sorry if I'm being a pain in the arse about this but I remember very well those FEW fans around here who were on the Martin bandwagon from the beginning and I don't recall you among them, either under this name or the name you used previously.
But be that as it may, are you truly saying you thought a 26th pick would be a franchise player? Especially one that wasn't known by anyone? Hell, Kingsgurl, 1kingzfan, 6th and I have been bullish on Martin from the beginning - and I mean REALLY bullish - but I'm pretty sure none of us would have gone so far as to make that kind of prediction.
Martin has already come further than pretty much anyone not named Martin would have expected. Sorry, but I just don't understand your rationale in any way.
tyrant
Starter
excuse me if im wrong but weren't all these players picked up After we signed webber? with the exception of fundy. you acquire the stud 1st. and then build around. fit the personality of your superstar. you dont begin with trash and hope the new superstar can fit their personalities.
example, we get webber. then we build. we get bibby 2001, christie 2000, bobby jackson 2000, keon clark 2003, jim jackson 2003, gerald wallce 2001 and we bring in the experience of vlade 1999
No all the players in the post you quoted weren't picked up after we TRADED for Webber. We drafted JWill that offseason, signed Vlade that offseason, had Corliss and Peja in place already.
A lot of this discussion depends on how you define a franchise player. Honestly, though, if we are going to consider players like Carlos Boozer as being franchise players then I don't see any reason why Kevin Martin can't be one.
His numbers this season are actually pretty close to what I would expect from a franchise player at 24 4 and 2. Really, you could make the argument that the only reason he isn't averaging around 28 ppg is because he takes about 5 shots less than Kobe.
If he improves his playmaking abilities then I don't see any reason in the world why he couldn't be a 28 5 and 4 type of player, which is pretty much the definition of a franchise caliber shooting guard.
His numbers this season are actually pretty close to what I would expect from a franchise player at 24 4 and 2. Really, you could make the argument that the only reason he isn't averaging around 28 ppg is because he takes about 5 shots less than Kobe.
If he improves his playmaking abilities then I don't see any reason in the world why he couldn't be a 28 5 and 4 type of player, which is pretty much the definition of a franchise caliber shooting guard.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
I don't think that there are any set rules on how you build a winning team. Peja was drafted before Webber was brought to the team and so was Corliss. Thats really beside the point. You seem to be grabiing at straws right now, so its pointless to continue this discussion. And by the way, I don't consider all of those players to be franchise players. I consider Kobe, or Garnet, who by the way didn't come first to Boston to build around, franchise players. David West, to me is no better than Martin. A very nice support player, but hardly a superstar. There's nothing wrong with that.
One thing I will agree on, is that its easier to get players to come to the team once you have a Kobe or Wade etc. But thats the only advantage of having them first, as long as you finally get them.
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
i'm acting what? the bibby trade should have been made a while ago. the writing was on the wall saying the kings stink. they keep letting the milk spoil then throwing it out. bibby and artest r good examples of both. both held quite a bit of value after that playoff series against san antonio.
you say this every summer that your gonna wait and see. i admire that about you though. you are positive even when crap stinks. i can't do that. if crap stinks, i'm gonna call it as it is. i can't support being mediocre with no future.
i'm still puzzled by coach reggie trying to win every game at the end of the season and NOT playing the young guys who are the future of the team. even when the maloofs said it publicly on TV. he ignored it and continued to put up meaningless wins. yes, he's past his rookie season. that happens when the season ends.
JerN820
Bench
The 26th pick in the NBA draft is about the equivilant of a 3rd rounder in the NFL. Who knows how those guys are going to turn out? To get a guy from a small school that averages almost 24 a game at 25 years old is very good. Just think if we can get that good of value with the 12th pick! It's that much better. Remember Kobe was what? The 13th pick in the '96 draft? You just never know.
tyrant
Starter
bajaden, just take a look at when these players were brought to sacramento. peja was drafted by the kings in 1996, but every other significant part of "the team" came AFTER webber got to sacramento. here got here in '98. ok? and then vlade came in 1999, doug in 2000, bibby in 2001, bobby jackson in 2000, hedo in 2000, jim jackson and keon in 2002. there are things you can reference to find this information.
there are rules when you're trying to build a great team. you dont build a house beginning with the walls and ceiling fans. you start from the bottom up. the fact that you said david west is about as good as martin just makes my stomach sick. you're a very good poster, but i disagree. you can build around west. he kinda reminds me of webber. without the fancy dancy passing. he can shoot, he has a tremendous variety of post up moves and plays solid defense.
there are rules when you're trying to build a great team. you dont build a house beginning with the walls and ceiling fans. you start from the bottom up. the fact that you said david west is about as good as martin just makes my stomach sick. you're a very good poster, but i disagree. you can build around west. he kinda reminds me of webber. without the fancy dancy passing. he can shoot, he has a tremendous variety of post up moves and plays solid defense.
tyrant
Starter
bajaden
Hall of Famer
First off, you have way too sensitive a stomach. Secondly, I didn't equate West and Martin in the sense of evaluating them against one another. That would be like mixing apples and oranges. What I was doing was putting them in the same tier group. In the first tier, I have players like Kobe, Wade, Nash, Jefferson, Ming, etc... In the second group I have players like Anthony, West, Martin, Allen, and Gasol. Not very much seperates the two groups. Sometimes its nothing more than perception. None of the second group are so called superstars. Allen may have been considered one at one time, but no more. However, I would bet that if those five players were on the same team, they would be contenders for the title. Not saying they would win, mind you.
I'm as big on metaphors as the next person, but what ever your building, whether it be a house or a car, or a televison set. You first aquire all the parts, and then you put them together. It doesn't really matter which parts you aquire first, as long as you aquire all the parts necessary. Now I honestly don't think, that the NBA is going to step in and say, hey, your team is illegal because you didn't aquire the parts in the proper order. Sorry, I never saw that one in the rule book.
=LarryLegend=
Starter
here is a short recent interview with kmart..
http://www.hoopsworld.com/includes/iframes/multimedia_video.asp?MM_FILE_ID=1170&PLAY_CLIP=Y
http://www.hoopsworld.com/includes/iframes/multimedia_video.asp?MM_FILE_ID=1170&PLAY_CLIP=Y
CruzDude
Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
Where is all this KMart ping-pong discussion going on a thread called "Rebuilding". Are the Kings not "rebuilding" now? And if so why is there all this dialog about franchise player and comparisons to CWebb in 1998, 1999 etc? Heck, the Kings have only had two franchise players since 1990 and the other one was Mitch!!
That is old water under the bridge. Gone. Done. Let's get back to 2008 and our 12th draft pick in a better than average draft and the Kings #42 & #43 picks in what appears to be an outstanding 2nd round draft.
Unless a trade is made for a starting PG, it would appear Beno should be the PG. Kevin at the 2, RonRon at the 3, Mikki at the 4 (until someone comes along to play better with equal or greater energy) and Brad at the 5 with Spencer pushing him more and more this year. With that group the Kings beat every division leader in the league and some twice and with a new system and with a new coach.
The rebuilding should really be about getting a dynamite bench like our old Bench Mob in 01 with Jon Barry, Derrick Martin, Scot Pollard, Hido and Funderburke (point-a-minute Lawrence!) off the bench. THAT was a BENCH! They defended and boy could they score!! Now, lets discuss rebuilding toward a goal of the 01 & 02 Bench Mob.
Summer league should give us all a better look at Shelden since we have no idea what he can do with consistent minutes. But IMHO we have a core that should go through their first training camp together (Beno being the only newby), we have Cisco, Hawes and John Salmons but thats about it.
So here's to The Bench Mob of 08-09!! Let's see what GP and The Maloofs can get for us, eh?
That is old water under the bridge. Gone. Done. Let's get back to 2008 and our 12th draft pick in a better than average draft and the Kings #42 & #43 picks in what appears to be an outstanding 2nd round draft.
Unless a trade is made for a starting PG, it would appear Beno should be the PG. Kevin at the 2, RonRon at the 3, Mikki at the 4 (until someone comes along to play better with equal or greater energy) and Brad at the 5 with Spencer pushing him more and more this year. With that group the Kings beat every division leader in the league and some twice and with a new system and with a new coach.
The rebuilding should really be about getting a dynamite bench like our old Bench Mob in 01 with Jon Barry, Derrick Martin, Scot Pollard, Hido and Funderburke (point-a-minute Lawrence!) off the bench. THAT was a BENCH! They defended and boy could they score!! Now, lets discuss rebuilding toward a goal of the 01 & 02 Bench Mob.
Summer league should give us all a better look at Shelden since we have no idea what he can do with consistent minutes. But IMHO we have a core that should go through their first training camp together (Beno being the only newby), we have Cisco, Hawes and John Salmons but thats about it.
So here's to The Bench Mob of 08-09!! Let's see what GP and The Maloofs can get for us, eh?
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Where is all this KMart ping-pong discussion going on a thread called "Rebuilding". Are the Kings not "rebuilding" now? And if so why is there all this dialog about franchise player and comparisons to CWebb in 1998, 1999 etc? Heck, the Kings have only had two franchise players since 1990 and the other one was Mitch!!
That is old water under the bridge. Gone. Done. Let's get back to 2008 and our 12th draft pick in a better than average draft and the Kings #42 & #43 picks in what appears to be an outstanding 2nd round draft.
Unless a trade is made for a starting PG, it would appear Beno should be the PG. Kevin at the 2, RonRon at the 3, Mikki at the 4 (until someone comes along to play better with equal or greater energy) and Brad at the 5 with Spencer pushing him more and more this year. With that group the Kings beat every division leader in the league and some twice and with a new system and with a new coach.
The rebuilding should really be about getting a dynamite bench like our old Bench Mob in 01 with Jon Barry, Derrick Martin, Scot Pollard, Hido and Funderburke (point-a-minute Lawrence!) off the bench. THAT was a BENCH! They defended and boy could they score!! Now, lets discuss rebuilding toward a goal of the 01 & 02 Bench Mob.
Summer league should give us all a better look at Shelden since we have no idea what he can do with consistent minutes. But IMHO we have a core that should go through their first training camp together (Beno being the only newby), we have Cisco, Hawes and John Salmons but thats about it.
So here's to The Bench Mob of 08-09!! Let's see what GP and The Maloofs can get for us, eh?
To be honest I liked the 03 bench of Bobby/Hedo/JimJax/Keon better than the one you mentioned. 02 with Bobby/Hedo/Pollard was really good too. I think 03 we added the veteran presence who was hungry for a ring(Jim), and the length/athleticism/toughness(Keon) we really needed to win a ring. If Chris hadn't hurt his knee we would've stomped the Mavs and gone on to win the title IMO.
ROFLOLLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AT COMPARING WEST TO WEBBER.
Sorry but Chris was a franchise player, he was right up there with KG. He was the best ball handling PF and passing PF in the NBA. He was a damn good rebounder, better than West. He was a much better shotblocker before the injury. He was a better post player. He was a better defender also(I have him guarding Shaq on tape/my computer). He was better at everything. Sorry but that comparison is horrible, you overrate West ridiculously bad, and the only way that comparison is halfway valid is if you call West a broke man's Webber.
Sorry but I don't see how Anthony is in the 2nd tier when Jefferson is in the 1st, and how you can even group Kobe with YaoMing. Yao's never going to be considered one of the greatest players to play the game.
SacKings7
Starter
I agree about Jefferson, I'm not even sure what Jefferson your talking about (Al I assume) but he certainly doesn't belong in that group. But I have to disagree about Yao. He's a dominant player when he isn't injured. Sure, he may not go down as 1 of the best of all time, but he's one of the best currently
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I knew someone was going to disagree, and thats alright. Its all about perception anyway. Tyrant was talking about franchise players. Players you build around. Minny obviously thought that Jefferson ( Al ) was a player to build around. They're observation, not mine. I would certainly put Ming in that same catagory. I, personaly have never been a big fan of Anthony. I will give him his due in the sense that he has improved, but he still has weaknesses in his game. I certainly wouldn't put him in the same company with Kobe, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Jordan, etc. Therefore, he's in the second tier.
tyrant
Starter
a 2nd tier player is someone who can at least get his team around the .500 mark. martin cant do that. i just believe martin isnt as good as david west. to me, martin is a 3rd tier player. like peja. remember when peja finished 3rd or 4th in the mvp voting. he was scoring around 24/25 a game. perfect example. but he was not gifted enough to lead us to the wcf. on the two contending teams peja played for (kings/hornets) he was the 3rd best player on both. and on the kings you could argue that he was the 4th best player (bobby jackson)
kevin martin is our peja. he cracks when there's defensive pressure. i would give martin for david west in a heartbeat. i gaurantee we'd be better next year.
