Ray McCallum

H

HighFlyingMonkey

Starter
#121
#121
twslam07 said:
I've brought this point up in another thread. With a lineup consisting of Vasquez, Thornton/McLemore, Salmons/Moute/Outlaw, Thompson/Patterson/Hayes, Cousins, there is literally no scoring threat on the floor other than Cousins, add to the fact that you don't have reliable shooters to knock down shots on the perimeter, and you have a recipe for disaster on offense. Thomas gave that unit another scoring threat which made the offense smoother since teams couldn't just solely focus on stopping Cousins. However, if Thomas is your second option, your team is going nowhere fast.

Offensively, I believe a Vasquez/McLemore/Gay/Thompson/Cousins lineup would be a better run offense than Thomas/McLemore/Gay/Thompson/Cousins because we found our #2 option in Gay. Thomas would then come off the bench and allows us to always have two scoring threats on the floor at all times. All this is kind of moot considering we never got a chance to see Vasquez with Gay in the lineup since he was shipped off in the trade that brought Gay here.

I think saying Vasquez failed here is too harsh. I would say he was setup for failure by not having another scoring threat to insert into the roster next to Cousins (AKA the team was poorly constructed at the time - I guess you can argue it still is :p).
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Sure, but I think this strengthens my original point (which has been kind of lost in this tangent :p) that you can't just plug in any PG to the Kings and expect him to put up Isaiah-like results. As if 21/7 on .58 TS% guys just grow on trees. Vasquez might have succeeded given a different configuration involving a SG who was more of a creative perimeter threat. I don't think he would have succeeded next to Rudy because I don't think Rudy is a creative perimeter threat. He's more of a mid to low post guy. Which is why I think the Kings were struggling when McCallum was playing scared in the first few games as a starter.

I wasn't really intending to rag on Greivis. Seemed like a nice guy with good intentions. Its just certain nincompoops around these parts insisted that he started over Isaiah despite the fact that the team was so much better with Isaiah on the court.
 
Chupacabra

Chupacabra

Starter
#123
#123
twslam07 said:
I wouldn't be furious. I still say you go best player available if you're the Kings and sort it out later. It's very, very important to "hit" on your draft picks even if they don't fit with your team. Because if you draft a rookie that shows well, that player will have a lot of trade value. The worst thing you can do is to not take a player who you think has a better chance at success in the NBA over a player who happens to play the right position or is a better fit. The draft is a time to accumulate as much talent as you can. Free agency and trades is where you rearrange that talent into complimentary players.

I feel like there are a couple tiers in this draft and it looks like we're projected to be right on the cusp of both.

Embiid
Wiggins
Parker
---Tier 1---
Exum
Randle
Vonleh
Smart
---Tier 2---
Ennis
Harris
Cauley-Stein
Gordon
McDermott
Anderson
---Tier 3---

We'll either be in the top 3, or we will be picking 6-11 depending on how the rest of the season plays out. If we land a top 3 pick, take one of the top 3 guys. If we land a top 7, take whoever is left of the first two tiers. If we don't land a top 7 pick, I would explore trading the pick for a veteran or trading down to get Cauley-Stein and a second round pick.

By the way, you can hit "reply" in the bottom right corner. That way you don't have to use "^" to indicate who you are replying to.
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Cauley-Stein won't be entering the draft this year. It's actually pretty bad news for us as far as the draft is concerned. I looked at Cauley-Stein as our fail safe in case we get screwed in the draft as we always do.
 
Capt. Factorial

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
#124
#124
Chupacabra said:
Cauley-Stein won't be entering the draft this year. It's actually pretty bad news for us as far as the draft is concerned. I looked at Cauley-Stein as our fail safe in case we get screwed in the draft as we always do.
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Do you have a link on this? I can't find anything.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#125
#125
Capt. Factorial said:
Do you have a link on this? I can't find anything.
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I can't find anything on it either, and I'd be very surprised if he didn't declare. I doubt that Dakari Johnson is going to declare, and Marcus Lee is unlikely as well. That would be two bigs returning, and when you add in two top recruits who will be joining next season in 6'10" Trey Lyles, and 7 foot Karl Towns, both ranked in the top ten of the top 100 highschool players in the nation, there's just not going to be a lot of playing time to go around. Plus, Calapari usually advises players to declare when he feels the moment is right for them.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#127
#127
HighFlyingMonkey said:
And by the way, I'm just talking about the beginning of the year, when Isaiah and Greivis had the same teammates. The difference in between the two was striking.
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There ain't no such animal: Vasquez and Thomas didn't have the same teammates as starters. Vasquez didn't get to play with Gay, he got to play with Mbah a Moute. McLemore, Williams, Thornton and Outlaw were all more productive offensively with Vasquez as a starter than they were with Thomas as a starter. Thompson was exactly as productive then than he is now. The only player who has been more productive with Isaiah Thomas as a starter has been Isaiah Thomas.

As to the offense being better, I'm fairly confident that the other "hustlin' Husky" has had more than a little to do with it.
 
P

peacelate

Bench
#129
#129
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
There ain't no such animal: Vasquez and Thomas didn't have the same teammates as starters. Vasquez didn't get to play with Gay, he got to play with Mbah a Moute. McLemore, Williams, Thornton and Outlaw were all more productive offensively with Vasquez as a starter than they were with Thomas as a starter. Thompson was exactly as productive then than he is now. The only player who has been more productive with Isaiah Thomas as a starter has been Isaiah Thomas.

As to the offense being better, I'm fairly confident that the other "hustlin' Husky" has had more than a little to do with it.
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x w/ Thomas w/ Vasquez
x FG% eFG% FG% eFG%
Thornton 41.6 51.9 31 34.5
McLemore 40 50 36.6 43.5
Patterson 40.6 45.7 40 42
Salmons 34.8 41.7 34.8 31.3
LMAM 50 50 36.4 40.9


Williams played better with Vasquez, but only played 23 minutes with IT (109 vs. 23). That sample size is too small to conclude anything. Similar story with Outlaw as he played only 15 minutes if Vasquez. The only player who really played better with Vasquez in the group of players you named was LMAM, who often didn't shoot much so it could have gone either way.













​
 
Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#130
#130
Code: 
        With Vasquez as starter        With Thomas as starter
Thornton    9.2ppg                7.9ppg
McLemore    10.1ppg            7.1ppg
Patterson    Did not play with both guards as starter
Salmons        Did not play with both guards as starter
Mbah a Moute    Did not play with both guards as starter
Outlaw        5.7ppg                3.9ppg
Williams    9.2ppg                9.2ppg
Thompson    7.1ppg                7.1ppg
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#133
#133
D-Wade said:
Safe to say this guy is a back up at best....
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Nope. Not at all "safe to say". Ray had a bad night on a night when the entire team was MIA. To put a ceiling on Ray - or anyone else - after a game like tonight is blatant ignorance.
 
D

D-Wade

G-League
#134
#134
VF21 said:
Nope. Not at all "safe to say". Ray had a bad night on a night when the entire team was MIA. To put a ceiling on Ray - or anyone else - after a game like tonight is blatant ignorance.
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to say otherwise is asinine! The kid have been logging way too many minutes, I dont expect him even to reach 10 points in any upcoming game he starts. His skill level is below average, can;t create for himself or others in any situation that is not a set play. It's either you can do or you can't. In today's NBA if you don't have a forward or sg that can handle the ball and create when the play is broken don't expect to win. Th results is exactly what happen tonight. Ray is no better at creating something out of nothing as is IT a defensive stopper.
 
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Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#135
#135
D-Wade said:
to say otherwise is asinine! The kid have been logging way too many minutes, I dont expect him even to reach 10 points in any upcoming game he starts.
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Everything else you spewed may or may not turn out to be true, but when said kid just got done scoring 27 in the very last game he started, your statement above is fairly silly. Clearly it can happen. Now whether it can happen with acceptable consistency is another question.
 
D

D-Wade

G-League
#137
#137
Bricklayer said:
Everything else you spewed may or may not turn out to be true, but when said kid just got done scoring 27 in the very last game he started, your statement above is fairly silly. Clearly it can happen. Now whether it can happen with acceptable consistency is another question.
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Well look who we were playing against! The only team I see him scoring 10 points on if he is to start all the remaining games is the Timberwolves. I tell you what, if he scores 10 points or more in any other game other than the one I mentioned I will paypal you $10 and if he doesnt you can paypal me $10.
 
P

peacelate

Bench
#138
#138
D-Wade said:
Well look who we were playing against! The only team I see him scoring 10 points on if he is to start all the remaining games is the Timberwolves. I tell you what, if he scores 10 points or more in any other game other than the one I mentioned I will paypal you $10 and if he doesnt you can paypal me $10.
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If IT sits the rest of the way, he's going to score in 10 points in more than one game. He's logging like 40+ minutes a game playing a high USG position.
 
Padrino

Padrino

All-Star
#141
#141
ah yes, the violent mood swings of fandom. ray mccallum goes 12-22 for 27 points and he's the PG of the future. ray mccallum follows it up with 2-14 for 4 points, and he's a back-up, at best. why don't we just hold off on the reactionary prognostication until next season, when we'll have a clearer picture of what the kings' guard rotation is going to look like?
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#142
#142
Padrino said:
ah yes, the violent mood swings of fandom. ray mccallum goes 12-22 for 27 points and he's the PG of the future. ray mccallum follows it up with 2-14 for 4 points, and he's a back-up, at best. why don't we just hold off on the reactionary prognostication until next season, when we'll have a clearer picture of what the kings' guard rotation is going to look like?
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There is a difficulty there though. And its why I think that ray just HAS to be the backup next year, and that even that might be a little risky. With only a handful of games left, a rookie PG throwing up A!!! F!!! performances, and a starting PG controversial in his own right who's going to be a FA...decisions, big decisions, have to be made here in a few months, and there is simply insufficient information to make them cleanly, at least if we stay in house.
 
Padrino

Padrino

All-Star
#143
#143
Bricklayer said:
There is a difficulty there though. And its why I think that ray just HAS to be the backup next year, and that even that might be a little risky. With only a handful of games left, a rookie PG throwing up A!!! F!!! performances, and a starting PG controversial in his own right who's going to be a FA...decisions, big decisions, have to be made here in a few months, and there is simply insufficient information to make them cleanly, at least if we stay in house.
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big decisions, indeed. i certainly haven't been on the "start ray" bandwagon, though i do like some of what i've seen from him in these last several games. my point was simply that the kings' backcourt is going to need serious work if this team intends to start winning games with any amount of regularity, and it's a bit pointless to declare anything definitive about ray mccallum in the meantime...

as it stands, this team has an undersized gunner at PG who probably fits best as a sixth man, a promising rookie PG who may be ready for consistent minutes, and a rookie SG who really isn't ready for much of anything, certainly not as a starter on a winning team, anyway. oh, and they picked up a cast-off SG they could sign to a 10-day contract. but that's it amongst the kings' natural guards, and that's just not gonna get it done in the west...

i don't think you can go forward with the mindset that "ray is going to be the starter," but there are so many variables that remain up in the air, including backcourt additions that must occur. i remain pretty steadfast in my opinion that isaiah thomas should return to a sixth man's role, but the fact remains that he is the starter until he isn't. if the kings acquire a reasonable alternative ("better" or not), then great. otherwise, it is what it is. or rather, IT is what IT is...
 
Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#146
#146
We know very little of Ray because he has played so little. We know he can be great on occasion and I see why we signed him to a relatively long contract. A few bad games don't mean a lot as far as I'm concerned. He is not the kind of guy you impulsively dump.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#147
#147
Padrino said:
big decisions, indeed. i certainly haven't been on the "start ray" bandwagon, though i do like some of what i've seen from him in these last several games. my point was simply that the kings' backcourt is going to need serious work if this team intends to start winning games with any amount of regularity, and it's a bit pointless to declare anything definitive about ray mccallum in the meantime...

as it stands, this team has an undersized gunner at PG who probably fits best as a sixth man, a promising rookie PG who may be ready for consistent minutes, and a rookie SG who really isn't ready for much of anything, certainly not as a starter on a winning team, anyway. oh, and they picked up a cast-off SG they could sign to a 10-day contract. but that's it amongst the kings' natural guards, and that's just not gonna get it done in the west...

i don't think you can go forward with the mindset that "ray is going to be the starter," but there are so many variables that remain up in the air, including backcourt additions that must occur. i remain pretty steadfast in my opinion that isaiah thomas should return to a sixth man's role, but the fact remains that he is the starter until he isn't. if the kings acquire a reasonable alternative ("better" or not), then great. otherwise, it is what it is. or rather, IT is what IT is...
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Not really sure where this McCallum as our starting PG thing came from. Not saying it couldn't happen sometime in the future, but I don't see it happening at the beginning of next season. Possible I guess, but me winning the lottery is also possible. Right now McCallum is just getting his feet wet. He's had little chance to play with the starting unit, or even play period until recently. To think you can throw a rookie PG out into the fray for the last 10 or 12 games and pass judgement is ridiculous. Hell, the league hasn't even had enough time to make out a scouting report on him. As far as him not scoring 10 points in the future, I think that's a fools bet. In a terrible shooting game he scored 10 points against the Knicks. As far as him only scoring against bad teams, he scored 13 against the Thunder, 16 against Dallas, and 22 against New Orleans. Frankly, none of that matters to me.

I'm more interested in his composure, his toughness, and how fast he adapts from game to game. Obviously the last game was a disaster, but not just for him. He somehow became the whipping dog, and certainly deserves his share of the blame, but it was a team failure. All in all, he's not doing too badly for a PG that's played a total 660 minutes in the NBA. By comparison IT has played 6227 minutes. It's likely that he's figured out a couple of things during that time. Anyway, as you said, IT is our starting PG until he isn't. I still have my fingers crossed that he remains with the team, and as our sixth man. If we go out and sign another PG to start, like a Lowry, then I'm not sure where that leaves McCallum. Maybe at the moment he's just insurance against IT leaving
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#148
#148
bajaden said:
Not really sure where this McCallum as our starting PG thing came from. Not saying it couldn't happen sometime in the future, but I don't see it happening at the beginning of next season. Possible I guess, but me winning the lottery is also possible. Right now McCallum is just getting his feet wet. He's had little chance to play with the starting unit, or even play period until recently. To think you can throw a rookie PG out into the fray for the last 10 or 12 games and pass judgement is ridiculous. Hell, the league hasn't even had enough time to make out a scouting report on him. As far as him not scoring 10 points in the future, I think that's a fools bet. In a terrible shooting game he scored 10 points against the Knicks. As far as him only scoring against bad teams, he scored 13 against the Thunder, 16 against Dallas, and 22 against New Orleans. Frankly, none of that matters to me.

I'm more interested in his composure, his toughness, and how fast he adapts from game to game. Obviously the last game was a disaster, but not just for him. He somehow became the whipping dog, and certainly deserves his share of the blame, but it was a team failure. All in all, he's not doing too badly for a PG that's played a total 660 minutes in the NBA. By comparison IT has played 6227 minutes. It's likely that he's figured out a couple of things during that time. Anyway, as you said, IT is our starting PG until he isn't. I still have my fingers crossed that he remains with the team, and as our sixth man. If we go out and sign another PG to start, like a Lowry, then I'm not sure where that leaves McCallum. Maybe at the moment he's just insurance against IT leaving
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It came from the people who 1. Think IT can be replaced by just about anyone and 2. The people who WANT IT to be replaced by just about anyone, regardless if it makes our team better or not.

Long-term, I think there's some real potential with a Ray-Ben-IT combo with Ray playing the Eric Snow role to IT's Iverson at times. But as we just saw last night, our rookie guards are a LONG way away from being able to compete vs some top-tier competition. To rely on that for all next year would be pretty foolish.
 
Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#149
#149
I think the idea that Ray would be a starter is a natural continuation of the idea that has been beaten into our skulls by some that IT should come off the bench. I realize IT coming off the bench does not automatically mean Ray should be a starter but if IT is to come off the bench and Ray is not good enough or experienced enough to start, we might as well dump him and get ourselves a starter. I have zero faith that a starting NBA pg will be found in the draft.
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#150
#150
I don't want either Ray or IT starting next year. We go that route and we can expect more of the same. This place will once again be dead by March, 2015. The question IMO which needs to be asked and the FO is asking themselves is who's going to be the backup PG next year, IT or Ray? Is Ray an affordable/cheaper replacement if they let IT walk or will they bring back IT, crushing any future Ray has here?

Only way Ray and IT work next year is if that is our PG rotation next year, which I in no way would be a fan of. Like it or not we've got to swap out a lot of the crap surrounding Rudy/Boogie. Need a legit, experienced starting PG who's not jacking it up 15 times a night, some 3&D guys and a shotblocking presence down low. Killing cap space by re-signing IT and running out the same backcourt along with Ben would be insanity.

What's insanity? Trying the same thing and expecting different results. So yes, new back court is a must. I personally don't think we should start any of IT/Ray/Ben next year if we're even halfway serious about winning. We're got the best offensive center in the league. The pressure is on to surround him with fitting talent, not just wanting to bring back our own because of emotional attachments to players and sentimental feelings.
 
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