Preseason Grades v. Warriors 12/17/11

mac said:
I think his play speaks for itself. All along people (at least I have) been saying that Tyreke is going to be unstoppable offensively (of course no one is actually unstoppable, but defenses will have a very hard time with him) if he developed an outside shot. His ability to get into the paint is unquestionable, and when healthy he's able to finish at a good rate. On defense, he is certainly at very least an average defender, and considering that he's only in his 3rd year most people would say that he is a pretty good defender. Say what you want, but not every rookie/2nd year man can steal a ball from Jason Kidd. Basically he has the natural tools for defense - long arms and strength, that will allow him to guard PGs that aren't too fast and most SGs.

That said, his biggest weakness outside of shooting appears to be in his decision making. He has not displayed the kind of court awareness that point guards generally have, but he is able to set up his team mates because of the attention that he draws from the opposition. The thing is, nobody in their right mind expects Tyreke to become Steve Nash or John Stockton. Every person saying that he's got the makings of a superstar is putting him in the mold of a more Wade like player, or a better version of Joe Johnson. None of those guys are natural passers either, but they do get the job done.

Give him time to adapt and learn. In my opinion, the real question is his work ethic. Kobe Bryant didn't become the player he is by relying on his athleticism. If Tyreke is willing to be humble, to work hard on his game, I don't think there's any question that he will be at very least an All Star some day. I am worried however, that the coaching staff may have/ continues to give him too much free rein, and as a result he may not realise that he's overdribbling etc.
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I'm not questioning his game, talent, skill, etc. I'm just not sure it's ever going to translate to winning basketball as long as he's dominating the ball and running the offense.
 
RookieOfTheDay said:
I'll probably get killed for saying so but I think Tyreke's great rookie year on a terrible team may have led many, including his coaches, to believe that he was greater than he is. I'm not saying he's a bad player but I'm doubting more and more whether he'll ever even be a legitimate 2nd best player on a contending team, much less the best player on a contending team. Maybe he's better suited to be a 3rd or 4th option and NOT someone who dominates the ball. That said, I REALLY hope he proves me wrong.
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People really don't know what they are watching sometimes. Seriously. Now I'm not going to comment too much on Westphal's comments as a I view them as somewhat political in nature, sending a message and all that. Something he actually has to be careful about actually because players will know if you are campaigning for your own job, and not for the team. But in no short order here were things notable about Tyreke's game:

1) he stepped back. He was out there 35min and he only took 10 shots. There were only 1 or 2 that would be considered bad shots, fewer forces actually than either of his backcourt mates.
2) he looked much quicker than we saw him last year. To just quicker/faster, but in holding the ball. There were no 15 seconds of dribbling possessions, and if there were any 10 second of dribbling ones it was largely caused by the Warriors aggressively doubling and trapping him and cutting off passing lanes. Those might have been the source of the sluggish comments btw. Twice he was unaware of the shotclock, but neither time had he dribbled down the entire clock. Both times he got the ball back with fewer than 10 seconds to go, and waited too long to make a move. Notably both times his move was to set somebody up.
3) his fingers were less sticky, and the passing looked much more integrated. There were multiple drives that were quite clearly drives designed to set people up rather than drives for shots and then a late bailout pass. Notably, and this was an open question, he found both Jimmer and Thornton on the wings for threes, and he looked like he knew exactly where they would be and took angles on hsi drives to make it an easy pass rather than a jump int eh air and half spin thing. Last year he rarely saw guys on the wings because he was headed toward the hoop and that was behind him. He was strictly a corner three guy unless cut off, which seemd like it might be a problem since Thronton is a wing three point shooter. But tonight hitting the guys on the wings did not look awkward and he was dumpig it forward into the paint to our bigs too. Not that they could catch anything.
4) hi drives were faster than they have been. As in pure speed. He looked like a big scary athlete out there. Not the saavy plodder getting by with guile and jukes. He made a couple of over penetration errors early, but for the most part picked his spots and went hard and fast when he went. Rather than probe, when the doubles came he mostly moved the ball up top.
5) his jumper looked much much better. Much better. Which is not to say it went in. But it was noticeably quicker, the lean was muted, and in general he was rising up quickly and in one spot and lookign very much like any other NBA shooter. The shots seemed very normal and standard, and they were all right online, just long or short, whcih is actually supposed to be the sign of a good shooter. If you digitally fuzzed his face and jersey and just watched anopnymous player x takign these jumpers, you would not have known it was Tyreke Evans.
6) Defensively he was quick and aggressive and right on his men even when they did score. In the early going especially he ws also helping guys aroudn him, Jimmer in particular, and was easily our best defensive player on the night. Maybe that's where the extra offesnive energy went.


Right down the line almost all of the details were better than they have been in the past.
 
Bricklayer said:
Jimmer got outscored on the night. There are two ends to the court, much as Kings fans have been trained over the years to ignore that.
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yah im aware of the concept "defense" you speak of.. Evans did not look good running the point. 5 t/os... standing at the top of the key overdribbling, dribbling into traffic, not directing anyone, not setting up our bigs at all, not paying attention to the shot clock. Westphals comments on Evans were pretty accurate.

Jimmer played a half of bad defense (against 25 ppg Ellis and 19 ppg Curry.............). And didnt look bad at all in the 3rd and 4th, I saw him get beat maybe twice in the second half, and that was against a 6'8 Klay Thompson.

Also Jimmer brought us back from being down 18, to within 5 points. then Evans was subbed for him and we went back down to 15? Coincidence?

If that is a B effort from our lead guard/star player, were not going far this year.
 
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Bricklayer said:
People really don't know what they are watching sometimes. Seriously. Now I'm not going to comment too much on Westphal's comments as a I view them as somewhat political in nature, sending a message and all that. Something he actually has to be careful about actually because players will know if you are campaigning for your own job, and not for the team. But in no short order here were things notable about Tyreke's game:

1) he stepped back. He was out there 35min and he only took 10 shots. There were only 1 or 2 that would be considered bad shots, fewer forces actually than either of his backcourt mates.
2) he looked much quicker than we saw him last year. To just quicker/faster, but in holding the ball. There were no 15 seconds of dribbling possessions, and if there were any 10 second of dribbling ones it was largely caused by the Warriors aggressively doubling and trapping him and cutting off passing lanes. Those might have been the source of the sluggish comments btw. Twice he was unaware of the shotclock, but neither time had he dribbled down the entire clock. Both times he got the ball back with fewer than 10 seconds to go, and waited too long to make a move. Notably both times his move was to set somebody up.
3) his fingers were less sticky, and the passing looked much more integrated. There were multiple drives that were quite clearly drives designed to set people up rather than drives for shots and then a late bailout pass. Notably, and this was an open question, he found both Jimmer and Thornton on the wings for threes, and he looked like he knew exactly where they would be and took angles on hsi drives to make it an easy pass rather than a jump int eh air and half spin thing. Last year he rarely saw guys on the wings because he was headed toward the hoop and that was behind him. He was strictly a corner three guy unless cut off, which seemd like it might be a problem since Thronton is a wing three point shooter. But tonight hitting the guys on the wings did not look awkward and he was dumpig it forward into the paint to our bigs too. Not that they could catch anything.
4) hi drives were faster than they have been. As in pure speed. He looked like a big scary athlete out there. Not the saavy plodder getting by with guile and jukes. He made a couple of over penetration errors early, but for the most part picked his spots and went hard and fast when he went. Rather than probe, when the doubles came he mostly moved the ball up top.
5) his jumper looked much much better. Much better. Which is not to say it went in. But it was noticeably quicker, the lean was muted, and in general he was rising up quickly and in one spot and lookign very much like any other NBA shooter. The shots seemed very normal and standard, and they were all right online, just long or short, whcih is actually supposed to be the sign of a good shooter. If you digitally fuzzed his face and jersey and just watched anopnymous player x takign these jumpers, you would not have known it was Tyreke Evans.
6) Defensively he was quick and aggressive and right on his men even when they did score. In the early going especially he ws also helping guys aroudn him, Jimmer in particular, and was easily our best defensive player on the night. Maybe that's where the extra offesnive energy went.


Right down the line almost all of the details were better than they have been in the past.
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I don't know why you got the impression I was committing only on last night's game. i was referring to his play in general, what we're seen for the last two years.
 
OptimusRhyme said:
Also Jimmer brought us back from being down 18, to within 5 points. then Evans was subbed for him and we went back down to 15? Coincidence?

If that is a B effort from our lead guard/star player, were not going far this year.
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I'm not sure it is really fair to use this argument about Tyreke based on how the team did while he was in compared to another player like Jimmer. You have to judge a player based on circumstances. Teams play against you differently based on what team you have on the floor. If you play your A players, the opposing team will likely try to play their A game. And if you put in your backups ie Jimmer, teams will tend to back off a little as well. +/- don't always tell the whole story. I remember Kevin Durant was criticized for a negative +/- in games, but boy would everyone love to have a Kevin Durant.
 
Why are people freaking out already? It's the first preseason game, and without 3 WHOLE starters too. Don't forget that this Warriors team were 36-46 last year.
 
ElRey said:
I'm not sure it is really fair to use this argument about Tyreke based on how the team did while he was in compared to another player like Jimmer. You have to judge a player based on circumstances. Teams play against you differently based on what team you have on the floor. If you play your A players, the opposing team will likely try to play their A game. And if you put in your backups ie Jimmer, teams will tend to back off a little as well. +/- don't always tell the whole story. I remember Kevin Durant was criticized for a negative +/- in games, but boy would everyone love to have a Kevin Durant.
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So your telling me you didnt notice the offense running smoothly thru Jimmer and Thomas and then Stangnating as soon as Reke was entered in to dribble? I was judging the Circumstance, I picked Reke and Jimmer because they were running the offense, therefore controlling much of the cirumstance.

its only been one pre-season game so im not gonna get to worked up about it, but IMO im not too excited too see Reke dominate the ball for a third year straight.
And I just dont get how people can bash Jimmer so much and pay so much attention to his faults and then not see simalar if not worse faults in our star player. [/I]
 
OptimusRhyme said:
yah im aware of the concept "defense" you speak of.. Evans did not look good running the point. 5 t/os... standing at the top of the key overdribbling, dribbling into traffic, not directing anyone, not setting up our bigs at all, not paying attention to the shot clock. Westphals comments on Evans were pretty accurate.

Jimmer played a half of bad defense (against 25 ppg Ellis and 19 ppg Curry.............). And didnt look bad at all in the 3rd and 4th, I saw him get beat maybe twice in the second half, and that was against a 6'8 Klay Thompson.

Also Jimmer brought us back from being down 18, to within 5 points. then Evans was subbed for him and we went back down to 15? Coincidence?

If that is a B effort from our lead guard/star player, were not going far this year.
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Nobody directs anyone in our offense. Not Reke, not Jimmer, Not Thornton, nobody. That's not the offense. And anybody who claims that the overdribbling etc. was anywhere near as proinounced last night as its been has an agenda.

Everybody got a piece of Jimmer defensively. He couldn't guard Ellis or Curry so we tried to hide him on Wright. He couldn't handle that either. After half he was on Klay Thompson and couldn't handle him either. He did however settle after the early debacle and I'll take that as something. He doesn't have to be a great defender, he just can't be one that can be targeted as instant points for the opposition. If he can't handle the jets though, and in the scrimmage Isiah Thomas was lighting him up too, its going to be a problem because he looks very small out there and switching him off on bigger guards looks like a bad idea.

As an aside, Jimmer had a -9 +/- for the game. Thornton and Reke were at -12. There wasn't much difference there. The bigger key to that run was fairly simple. The lead was 14 at 7:14. Then Reke leaves, followed by Curry and Ellis, and voila, the lead shrinks to 5 near the end of the quarter. The lineup against which that was accomplished was Jeremy Tyler, Dominic McGuire, Klay Thompson, some dude named Mitchell, and Ekpe Udoh.

Which is not to say Fredette didn't come on and play a strong offesnvie quarter. He did. Enough so that this one game convinced me he'll be fine as the third guard. But the competition got notably less. And then another voila! The lead is still only 6 at the 10:21 mark of the 4th, Ellis and Curry return, and a minute and a half later the lead is back to 11. Funny how that works.
 
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if i was freaking out i'd TYPE LIKE THIS!!!*!!!!*%$#(o)(o)!!!!!!!*!!! but truthfully im just bored and i'm glad to talk basketball again, its been too long.

Im just happy we have Jimmer, His offense already looks light years ahead of most rookies ive seen, and with his work ethic and attitude i have more then enough faith he will improve defensively.
 
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Key to this years Kings backcourt, as evidenced in last nights game, is this Westphal guote that also puts to rest the PG-SG argument:

"Out of our three perimeter players, we really don't care who brings the ball up because they're all interchangeable," Westphal said. "That's why we don't get caught up in who's the point guard, shooting guard

And I liked what I saw for a first preseason game.
 
Bricklayer said:
Nobody directs anyone in our offense. Not Reke, not Jimmer, Not Thornton, nobody. That's not the offense. And anybody who claims that the overdribbling etc. was anywhere near as proinounced last night as its been has an agenda.

Everybody got a piece of Jimmer defensively. He couldn't guard Ellis or Curry so we tried to hide him on Wright. He couldn't handle that either. After half he was on Klay Thompson and couldn't handle him either. He did however settle after the early debacle and I'll take that as something. He doesn't have to be a great defender, he just can't be one that can be targeted as instant points for the opposition. If he can't handle the jets though, and in the scrimmage Isiah Thomas was lighting him up too, its going to be a problem because he looks very small out there and switching him off on bigger guards looks like a bad idea.

As an aside, Jimmer had a -9 +/- for the game. Thornton and Reke were at -12. There wasn't much difference there. The bigger key to that run was fairly simple. The lead was 14 at 7:14. Then Reke leaves, followed by Curry and Ellis, and voila, the lead shrinks to 5 near the end of the quarter.

Which is not to say Fredette didn't come on and play a strong offesnvie quarter. He did. Enough so that this one game convinced me he'll be fine as the third guard. But the competition got notably less. And then another voila! The lead is still only 6 at the 10:21 mark fo the 4th, Ellis and Curry return, and a minute and a half later the elad is back to 11. Funny how that works.
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True True, Ellis and Curry were entered and thats the main reason the tides did turn,But Reke and I believe Thornton? were entered aswell to counter so i was surprised they led the lead slip as much as they did.

Right now i'd be more worried about Rekes offensive awareness compared to a scoring guard/ bench rookies defense.
 
If it weren't for Jimmer, the game wouldn't even have been close. I liked his court vision and his ability to draw defenders, and the awareness to know when to kick it out to the open guy for the assist.

Evans is back to his ballhogging ways, don't know if anyone caught it, but he tried to go baseline against two defenders when he had a wide open Greene for a perimeter jumper. Greene was actually calling for the ball and Evans clearly saw him. That's not good basketball or smart basketball anyway you wanna cut it. Oh yeah, and Evans ended up forcing it and missed it, which led to an easy transition basket by the Warriors. The whole preseason spin and "they still have to get used to each other" stuff isn't even a credible excuse for that kinda selfishness. Greene and Evans have been together for a couple years. No excuse for that.
 
Geoff said:
Great video...but did he do anything else besides scoring?
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He also showed himself to be a solid passer in the fundamental sense. No drive and dishes creating things, but if he saw a guy open in the corner he would dribble to get a better angle and hit the guy.

Defense...well. Work in progress.
 
Big question. Do we win with Chuck Hayes, John Salmons, and Demarcus Cousins? My guess yes we do.
 
LakersStink said:
If it weren't for Jimmer, the game wouldn't even have been close. I liked his court vision and his ability to draw defenders, and the awareness to know when to kick it out to the open guy for the assist.

Evans is back to his ballhogging ways, don't know if anyone caught it, but he tried to go baseline against two defenders when he had a wide open Greene for a perimeter jumper. Greene was actually calling for the ball and Evans clearly saw him. That's not good basketball or smart basketball anyway you wanna cut it. Oh yeah, and Evans ended up forcing it and missed it, which led to an easy transition basket by the Warriors. The whole preseason spin and "they still have to get used to each other" stuff isn't even a credible excuse for that kinda selfishness. Greene and Evans have been together for a couple years. No excuse for that.
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Well given that Evans shot 5-10 on the night, and 4 of those were missed jumpers, then you must be referring to the missed layup he had at the 9:37 mark. The ONE missed layup he had. And on the previous possession Reke got the assist setting up Donte for a three for his 11th point.
 
maybe cheap way. but 3 out of 5 starters out with rookie in his first game. players in different positions and new starter at PF. and a backup Center that was in dleauge last year. pretty bad circumstances to overcome with a week of practice.
 
MassachusettsKingsFan said:
Its kind of a cheap way to look at things, because every team goes through a stretch of injuries, but I agree with you.
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Our pathetic frontcourt play was so pronounced here it was hard not to look at it. Our guards, including little Thomas, combined to score 72 points on 22-44 shooting (Thronton was the only one who shot under 50%) and add 16 assists. They were not the problem.

Whihc is kind of embarrassing since both Hickson and Thompson are rotation level bigs who have started long stretches of games in the NBA and would at thevery least be 3rd bigs for almost every team in the league. And yet they sucked. Hard.
 
Bricklayer said:
Well given that Evans shot 5-10 on the night, and 4 of those were missed jumpers, then you must be referring to the missed layup he had at the 9:37 mark. The ONE missed layup he had. And on the previous possession Reke got the assist setting up Donte for a three for his 11th point.
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why do i get the feeling the post you replied to is the beginning of a Jimmer vs. Tyreke theme here at Kingsfans?
 
I think Greene had an interesting game.

If he gave us 11 points, 4 rebounds, 1 block on 3-5 three point shooting as a SF playing good defense .. thats a good contribution for him. He got murdered on defense and on the glass as a PF, but those are good numbers in only 18 minutes of time (again, as a reserve SF).

The big questions is if his shot is really improving. Its only been one game, but if he all of a sudden becomes a .400 3 point shooter ... you may have something here.
 
Entity said:
why do i get the feeling the post you replied to is the beginning of a Jimmer vs. Tyreke theme here at Kingsfans?
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I almost said the same thing. Its inevitable. Fans are dumb. Humans are dumb. Time and time again its always the same pattern.
 
Jimmer deserves an A-. The young man played his heart out. MontA and Curry did what they do to MOST teams. The Bigs looked confused and grade a D. Tyreke looked good at times and made more than his share of mistakes, he gets a C, its his third season. Thornton and Greene get a B-. Young Isaiah gets a B for his hustle. Overall the team gets a C-. With better Big play this team wins as they did have 5 players in double figures.

I like what the Kings are doing with the squad and expect it to take a while for a rotation to develop. AK or Dally could still be signed and if so I expect a SF to be amnestied.

The game in Sacto is going to feature the Chuckwagon explaining who owns the paint to the W's. There could be a Kwame sighting who will get schooled by Cousins.

Mark Jackson impressed in his debut.

KB
 
OptimusRhyme said:
So your telling me you didnt notice the offense running smoothly thru Jimmer and Thomas and then Stangnating as soon as Reke was entered in to dribble? I was judging the Circumstance, I picked Reke and Jimmer because they were running the offense, therefore controlling much of the cirumstance.

its only been one pre-season game so im not gonna get to worked up about it, but IMO im not too excited too see Reke dominate the ball for a third year straight.
And I just dont get how people can bash Jimmer so much and pay so much attention to his faults and then not see simalar if not worse faults in our star player. [/I]
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Maybe somebody else can comment on how the offense ran since I didn't see most of the game. I'm just pointing out the pitfalls of trying to compare two players based on their +/- numbers, or how the game turns.
 
I'll just say there didn't look to be any sort of good offense out there, which I'll attribute to missing Demarcus/Chuck.
The 3 guard lineup didn't look good on either side of the ball. Hard to envision 3 high usage guards working at the same time (and it's not like Salmons at the 3 will change much), but hope I'm wrong.
 
Bricklayer said:
I almost said the same thing. Its inevitable. Fans are dumb. Humans are dumb. Time and time again its always the same pattern.
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Speaking of "same pattern", I had a surprised smile on my face when I opened this thread for the first time this morning. Brick and his game grades and comments are back!! Thanks Brick wonderful job and much appreciated by me.

I didn't see the game so this thread, the Bee write-up, and the NBA.com summary are my sources. Good to have a game on the court again. Early and normally awful basketball. Sorry about Thompson and Hickson. Let's hope for better from them. Enjoy Whiteside while you can, he won't be playing. I can't imagine we'll be seeing much of Garcia and Greene after the end of the month. I hope Outlaw will be useful in the rotation. Hope for more additions to team but don't expect any. I see that the Westphal "fans" and the Tyreke "fans" etc etc are still with us.

As Brick says, fans are dumb, humans are dumb but hopefully our offerings on this site this year are an improvement over prior years. My hope is the same for the play of our Kings. I'm optimistic.
 
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