Yeah....MT isn't really that good either if you haven't figured that out yet. Do you watch the games? Explain to me how good MT is. Is it the career 43% shooting from the floor....it is better than Jimmer. Is it MTs career 36% from 3. That's under Jimmer's 38%. Neither guy can play defense......at all. Neither guy really distributes the ball. I wouldn't play either guy many minutes but if you think MT is that much better.....go ahead and explain that.
[Grades] Preseason Grades v. Clippers 10/14/2013
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
Fairly easily.
Virtually every statistic you can think of supports Thornton.
- For starters, he actually has a sample size of minutes and games to back up his data. Jimmer does not. But moving on.
-Thornton is more efficient on more shot attempts. His TS% and eFG% are both higher. This is in actual minutes and p/36. Very important, considering these guys are on the floor to score.
-Thornton turns the ball over far less than Jimmer while having a higher USG%. Thornton insanley low TOV % is actually one of his strong-points. He's consistently in the top 10 for not turning the ball over.
-No one will ever mistake Thornton for a great rebounder, but he's not nearly as pitiful at is as Jimmer is.
-While neither can defend, at least Thornton, with his athleticism, is capable of being a decent defender.
-Finally, Jimmer is a 6'2 SG with limited athleticism. There's not a whole lot of upside there.
Virtually every statistic you can think of supports Thornton.
- For starters, he actually has a sample size of minutes and games to back up his data. Jimmer does not. But moving on.
-Thornton is more efficient on more shot attempts. His TS% and eFG% are both higher. This is in actual minutes and p/36. Very important, considering these guys are on the floor to score.
-Thornton turns the ball over far less than Jimmer while having a higher USG%. Thornton insanley low TOV % is actually one of his strong-points. He's consistently in the top 10 for not turning the ball over.
-No one will ever mistake Thornton for a great rebounder, but he's not nearly as pitiful at is as Jimmer is.
-While neither can defend, at least Thornton, with his athleticism, is capable of being a decent defender.
-Finally, Jimmer is a 6'2 SG with limited athleticism. There's not a whole lot of upside there.
I'm not a Jimmer fan but I just looked at the advanced stats again and granted your right on the sample size but the advanced stats are very close. And MT is not a better 3 point shooter which is probably the most important stat for these 2 guys as they need to stretch the floor. Jimmer turns the ball over more because hes not a PG.....take the ball out of his hands and spot him up. mT is a better rebounder for sure. But the argument that MTs athleticism means he's capable of being a decent defender is not a well made point. he's not a good defender and has shown no inclination to be a good defender ever.....I'll say it again, I'd play the other guards in front of these guys and MT is being vastly over rated. He's not very good.
Jimmer can hit open 3's, shoot free throws and has a nice little floater in the lane. That's about all he brings to the table.
He can't create his own shot, he's easy to defend, gets trapped when the ball is in his hands, which causes the offense to come to a half. Not to mention he's one of the worst defenders to ever put on a Kings jersey. The reason IT and MT get minutes over Jimmer is because their offense is good enough to be able to cancel out their horrific defense on some nights.
He can't create his own shot, he's easy to defend, gets trapped when the ball is in his hands, which causes the offense to come to a half. Not to mention he's one of the worst defenders to ever put on a Kings jersey. The reason IT and MT get minutes over Jimmer is because their offense is good enough to be able to cancel out their horrific defense on some nights.
Well that's a first. I can't remember anyone ever saying MT isn't very good. And especially when comparing him to Jimmer.
A player who averaged over 21 points when first arriving with the team. Then went on to average nearly 19 the next season. Until last season where his minutes drop from an average of 36 minutes a game the previous two years to 24 minutes a game under horrendous coaching with terrible rotations and lineups.
Definitely has about the same talent level as Jimmer
A player who averaged over 21 points when first arriving with the team. Then went on to average nearly 19 the next season. Until last season where his minutes drop from an average of 36 minutes a game the previous two years to 24 minutes a game under horrendous coaching with terrible rotations and lineups.
Definitely has about the same talent level as Jimmer
MT is what he is, a streaky scorer. I never said the was the end all by any means, but I will defend him when people are trying to say a 12th man scrub like Jimmer is better than he is lol. MT plays D MUCH MUCH better than Jimmer, and MT isn't even a good defender. That should say something about Jimmer's D. The ONLY thing that Jimmer does better than MT is hit set shots (which he isn't even that much better than MT). Every other part of MT's game is better than Jimmer. It's totally night and day, and you're asking if I have been watching the games?
MT is a proven 20ppg scorer, Jimmer is a 12th man. I am not even sure why we are comparing the two.
MT is a proven 20ppg scorer, Jimmer is a 12th man. I am not even sure why we are comparing the two.
If the game of basketball were played like BASEketball yes, I would take Jimmer, although MT can probably have better psych-outs. The game isn't about who can shoot 3pt shots the best or Steve Novak would be the best player in the NBA (someone who I actually really like). When it comes to stretching the floor it's a total 100% wash. Both players will be outside and both players have to have their shot respected. Every other offensive and defensive stat is in favor of MT. I think Jimmer, in the right situation, could be a guy like John Barry, but at this point on this team he's not even close to that yet. That's about his ceiling though in the NBA.
MT over Jimmer everytime.
But could I live with a Salmons/Jimmer patch for a season behind Ben? Yes. MT is a 25+ min player, but with Ben here, he won't be getting that for very long.
I would trade Thornton for anything close in value at SF or C, and take lumps with the leftover guards backing up Ben.
But could I live with a Salmons/Jimmer patch for a season behind Ben? Yes. MT is a 25+ min player, but with Ben here, he won't be getting that for very long.
I would trade Thornton for anything close in value at SF or C, and take lumps with the leftover guards backing up Ben.
i'm continually amazed at this obsession with a non-defensive, unathletic, deep bench tweener guard. i have to admit that i'm quite thankful coach malone already has a sense of how he intends to utilize his guard rotation, and the fact that jimmer fredette has been left out of that rotation through three preseason games should speak volumes. were the kings short of chuckers, i'd say give the kid a few minutes. but, of all the ill-fitting players on this roster, jimmer offers the least, both in terms of need and overall skillset...
well, it's obvious you'd like to see marcus thornton out of the rotation in favor of jimmer fredette, despite the fact that such a move defies all logic. but here's the thing: thornton is neither unathletic nor a deep bench tweener. he's a full-sized shooting guard who is very obviously a shooting guard, who can handle the ball, and who has a very obvious utility in the nba as a streak scorer and clutch performer. in fact, there may be no other player on this kings team who is more position-bound than thornton. the same cannot be said of fredette, whose lack of quickness and putrid handle make him a poor fit at point guard, and whose inadequate size and lack of athleticism makes him a poor fit at shooting guard. i'll certainly grant you that thornton is a below-average defender, but he has the tools to be an adequate defender, whereas jimmer fredette is, again, limited by his size and lack of athleticism...
According to a tweet I just read, Jimmers going to get minutes against the suns. Vasquez is going to get more minutes as expected. MAM won't play.
I just realized something. Maybe Malone is testing Marcus/Jimmer. Jimmer played in game 2 and Marcus didn't. If the same thing happens in game 4, he's obviously alternating to see who he likes best out of the two.
Maybe he doesn't like the fact the Marcus isn't much of a team player whereas Jimmer is, especially with so much emphasis being on team ball.
If this is true, I expect Benny Mac to start and one of Thornton/Jimmer to be his primary backup, depending on who wins this preseason battle.
I just realized something. Maybe Malone is testing Marcus/Jimmer. Jimmer played in game 2 and Marcus didn't. If the same thing happens in game 4, he's obviously alternating to see who he likes best out of the two.
Maybe he doesn't like the fact the Marcus isn't much of a team player whereas Jimmer is, especially with so much emphasis being on team ball.
If this is true, I expect Benny Mac to start and one of Thornton/Jimmer to be his primary backup, depending on who wins this preseason battle.
Since we're posting personal "likes" here, I offer mine. I would prefer Thornton and Fredette out of the rotation. Since neither is the answer in my book, we should not waste anymore minutes on them.
The rumor about Pau's Laker future has generated this "trade" thread, I wonder if the Landry situation will cause an early Kings player transaction.
The rumor about Pau's Laker future has generated this "trade" thread, I wonder if the Landry situation will cause an early Kings player transaction.
I have of course long argued that was IT's appropriate role, but its worth noting that an advantage we had back in the BJax days was that BJax was just about the only guy not passing (well maybe except Peja). He would go out there and have either Vlade or Webber inside, he would spell Bibby while paired with Christie, then spell Christie while paired with Bibby, and in general he could do his basically selfish thing without us actually depending on him to run the offense and keep others involved.
Outside of some IT/Vasquez paired minutes we probably don't have those luxuries with this group. Cuz is a superior passer, but it will be years before he's actually floor generaling it at the level of a Vlade or Webb. So we really need IT not to go all in on the me stuff while he still has primary team running responsibilities.
Outside of some IT/Vasquez paired minutes we probably don't have those luxuries with this group. Cuz is a superior passer, but it will be years before he's actually floor generaling it at the level of a Vlade or Webb. So we really need IT not to go all in on the me stuff while he still has primary team running responsibilities.
I don't think you have read the whole thread. I'd rather see MT out of the rotation, I'd rather see the 3 PGs and Ben in the rotation. If anything, I'd spot Fredette on the 3 point line as a SG. But you are correct that I'd like to see MT out.....I'm open minded and MT has an opportunity to show what he an do but I don't believe he is goingto fit into this team......so far in the small sample size of preseason, I don't think he fits and at some point, whether he has tools or not, you have to call him a below avg defender and the biggest problem I have with him is he is a selfish player and pouts.....I can't believe anyone can disagree with this last part.
He's headstrong and confident in himself with the self belief that he's the best option to take shots when possible. If he wasn't "selfish" or wasn't pissed off when not playing, he probably wouldn't have made it this far. This is part of the makeup of guys who can go on rediculous hot streaks and make clutch shots at the end of games. It's almost an "assasine mentality" or "killer instinct". Thornton has that look in his eye, that a guy like Jimmer doesn't at this point. There's only so many guys in the league who really want the ball at the end of game for a game winning chance. Thornton is one of these guys.
How do you think a guy like Kobe Bryant or Larry Bird would act, if things had been a little different..and they were in a situation where they were not getting the chance that he believed they deserved? They wouldn't be a happy campers and they would show it.
It comes with the territory at times. Good coaches know this and don't hold it against the player, unless it becomes a complete distraction to the team
How do you think a guy like Kobe Bryant or Larry Bird would act, if things had been a little different..and they were in a situation where they were not getting the chance that he believed they deserved? They wouldn't be a happy campers and they would show it.
It comes with the territory at times. Good coaches know this and don't hold it against the player, unless it becomes a complete distraction to the team
Something I don't understand is why Jimmer is such a terrible rebounder. His first year he was tied for worst rebounder in the entire league with Keyon Dooling for players with 10+ min/game, 40+ games.
http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstats.aspx?team=%&type=pg&posi=%&yr=2012&gp=40&mins=10
Last year he improved a little, but he was still worse than IT. It's almost like he is allergic to the ball.
http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstats.aspx?team=%&type=pg&posi=%&yr=2012&gp=40&mins=10
Last year he improved a little, but he was still worse than IT. It's almost like he is allergic to the ball.
