[Grades] Preseason Grades v. Clippers 10/14/2013

[kennadog]

Problem is, MT thinks he's better than he actually is.

Another difference between IT and BJax is size. A significant size difference in the NBA. IT is a defensive liability, because of that. He gives great effort, but guys can just shoot over him. And I like IT a lot.

 

[dude12]

He's headstrong and confident in himself with the self belief that he's the best option to take shots when possible. If he wasn't "selfish" or wasn't pissed off when not playing, he probably wouldn't have made it this far. This is part of the makeup of guys who can go on rediculous hot streaks and make clutch shots at the end of games. It's almost an "assasine mentality" or "killer instinct". Thornton has that look in his eye, that a guy like Jimmer doesn't at this point. There's only so many guys in the league who really want the ball at the end of game for a game winning chance. Thornton is one of these guys.

How do you think a guy like Kobe Bryant or Larry Bird would act, if things had been a little different..and they were in a situation where they were not getting the chance that he believed they deserved? They wouldn't be a happy campers and they would show it.

It comes with the territory at times. Good coaches know this and don't hold it against the player, unless it becomes a complete distraction to the team

Yes, this mentality also can shoot teams out of the game before they can even get into the position of game winning shots. He needs to be like Jamal Crawford but he's not....not efficient enough but doesn't embrace that scoring role off the bench....that's a problem when he could be a fit in a role and he doesn't want that role.

 

[Hadlowe]

Problem is, MT thinks he's better than he actually is.

Another difference between IT and BJax is size. A significant size difference in the NBA. IT is a defensive liability, because of that. He gives great effort, but guys can just shoot over him. And I like IT a lot.

IT gives great effort sometimes. He does not fight through screens when he should. Preseason or not, he gets picked by poor big men far too easily for his agility and quickness. Oh, look, Cousins just picked up his fourth foul trying to defend against the driving guard. Well done, team.

 

[Hadlowe]

Yes, this mentality also can shoot teams out of the game before they can even get into the position of game winning shots. He needs to be like Jamal Crawford but he's not....not efficient enough but doesn't embrace that scoring role off the bench....that's a problem when he could be a fit in a role and he doesn't want that role.

Crawford is an exceptional ballhandler and an underrated passer. He is an inefficient shooter, but has the ability to score anywhere on the court on any given possession.

Thornton is an average ballhandler and a non-passer. He is an inefficient shooter, but has the ability to score from the perimeter or midrange, but does not penetrate to the rim well in a half-court setting off the dribble. Their games are only similar in one respect, they both jack up too many contested shots from range.

Thornton's best game is off-ball, which is typically not something you want in a sixth-man. To get him good looks, you need to have someone else creating shots for him. If he gave even a mediocre effort on defense, I would put him in as a third option on offense with the starters, because he is a good scorer. His defense is just atrocious, though, which is unforgiveable because he actually has the athleticism and strength to be a decent to good defender against 2's.

 

[King Baller]

For wanting the ball when it counts, I'll compare him. Doesn't mean he's nearly as good some of the best ever, but he believes he's good when it counts. I can't say that for many other guys

He is a cold blooded shooter who is not deterred by a few misses. While I like MT in a bench role IMO the Kings need a stronger defender at the starting 2 spot. As Hadlowe points out a weak guard line gets the Bigs in foul trouble sooner rather than later.

KB

 

[Hadlowe]

Something I don't understand is why Jimmer is such a terrible rebounder. His first year he was tied for worst rebounder in the entire league with Keyon Dooling for players with 10+ min/game, 40+ games.

http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstats.aspx?team=%&type=pg&posi=%&yr=2012&gp=40&mins=10

Last year he improved a little, but he was still worse than IT. It's almost like he is allergic to the ball.

As with most things in basketball, stats do not tell the whole story.

Lack of crashing offensive boards is part of it. Jimmer hoists threes, which means he is pretty much always in poor rebounding position on the offensive boards. He also tends to be the only Kings player to guard against cherry picking on the other end, which is sad because he is almost comically incapable of stopping an opponent's fast break solo. His poor rebounding is at least partially the product of him doing the right thing for team ball.

The other part is that our bigs do not tip out rebounds a la Tyson Chandler. Jason Thompson especially should learn to do that, as his length and hops should let him get over most bigs in the league on 50/50 balls to send offensive boards out to our guards. Cousins, just vacuums up everything that is near him, so it's not an issue there as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Hadlowe]

For wanting the ball when it counts, I'll compare him. Doesn't mean he's nearly as good some of the best ever, but he believes he's good when it counts. I can't say that for many other guys

He can believe what he wants, but he is not as good at creating for himself as he needs to be for that mentality. He has hit a few game-winners in the last three years, and that's not nothing, but he has done it on passes out of Tyreke's penetration, on inbounds plays, on pump fake/one dribble shots. McLemore can already do all of those things, and has not yet proven to be a terrible defender through lack of effort. IT can create his own shots pretty much at will. I would rather he have the ball in the last 10 seconds than MT on any given day.

The mentality of "give me the damn ball" is just poisonous when 1) young, rebuilding team with team concept still in flux, 2) it results in pee-poor defense on the other side of the court, 3) the raw natural talent to back it up is only there occasionally. See Washington Wizards 2006 through 2012.

 

[Hadlowe]

Fairly easily.

Virtually every statistic you can think of supports Thornton.

- For starters, he actually has a sample size of minutes and games to back up his data. Jimmer does not. But moving on.

-Thornton is more efficient on more shot attempts. His TS% and eFG% are both higher. This is in actual minutes and p/36. Very important, considering these guys are on the floor to score.

-Thornton turns the ball over far less than Jimmer while having a higher USG%. Thornton insanley low TOV % is actually one of his strong-points. He's consistently in the top 10 for not turning the ball over.

-No one will ever mistake Thornton for a great rebounder, but he's not nearly as pitiful at is as Jimmer is.

-While neither can defend, at least Thornton, with his athleticism, is capable of being a decent defender.

-Finally, Jimmer is a 6'2 SG with limited athleticism. There's not a whole lot of upside there.

I don't disagree with you in general, but one point needs clarification. Thornton doesn't turn the ball over because he is a one or two dribble guy who shoots when he gets it. Turnovers happen on passes and dribble penetration. If Thornton doesn't pass the ball, he doesn't turn it over. If he doesn't dribble into traffic trying to get to the rim, he doesn't turn it over. Thornton chucks, and chuckers don't cause turnovers.

I know I have bagged on Thornton a bunch today, but I still think the kid has talent. My complaints about him are all regarding his defensive effort and his mentality on offense. Me first basketball needs to be a thing of the past. There is some real promise in some things I've seen in preseason, and selfish offense-centric basketball is just going to murder that.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Yes, this mentality also can shoot teams out of the game before they can even get into the position of game winning shots. He needs to be like Jamal Crawford but he's not....not efficient enough but doesn't embrace that scoring role off the bench....that's a problem when he could be a fit in a role and he doesn't want that role.

Agreed. Coach Malone stated that he sees Thornton as a Vinny Johnson type of player. Vinny was a scorer off the bench. I'd be very surprised if Thornton is a starter. I'm betting he starts Salmons at the two, for defensive priority.

The thing not to do, is get Thornton used to starting,.. then later on, change his role to coming off the bench. I explain to him from day 1, what his value and role will be as our best scorer off the bench. Cut and dry, no confusion. I believe Malone has probably already done this, or will do it before the first game

 

[Gary]

Who's going to start then? MLM? Jimmer?

I guarantee MT will be starting unless they go with Salmons/Outlaw at SG/SF. Jimmer or MLM will not be starting over MT. That's just crazy talk.

 

[bajaden]

Who's going to start then? MLM? Jimmer?

I guarantee MT will be starting unless they go with Salmons/Outlaw at SG/SF. Jimmer or MLM will not be starting over MT. That's just crazy talk.

Now maybe its unlikely, but its not crazy. Just how many games have we won with Thornton starting? Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming all the losses on Thornton, but I'am blaming a lot of them on his type of mentality. If you truly want to get rid of the me first mentality, then get rid of me first!! McLemore is dripping with more overall talent than Thornton ever imagined. He's taller with more length. He's very coachable, which means you have the opportunity to mold him into the kind of player you want on this team. This team isn't going to make the playoffs this season. McLemore appears to be in the future of this team along with Cousins. If so, then start him and let him learn in the heat of battle.

As for Salmons, why preytell, would you start a player on the downside of his career, and who won't be here after this season, if that long. If were rebuilding, then rebuild with the building blocks that will become the foundation of the team, not blocks that will have to be replaced in a year. Its time to stop looking at the short term benefits and look at the long term benefits. If this team won't be a contender until possibly 2 years from now, maybe 3, then lets not waste time with washed up players, just so we can win a couple of more games which will look good on our won/loss record. John is a nice player to have on a veteran contending team, not on a young rebuilding team where he just takes valuable minutes away from a player that needs the experience.

Why don't we just roll out a starting lineup of IT, Salmons, Thornton, JT, and Cousins... That would be a huge improvement over last season!

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

What if Salmons started showing as much improvement as Outlaw has so far? It's certainly possible and I wouldn't be that surprised if it happened. Coaches and what they bring to a team's style and mentality, make all the difference for some players.

It happened in Sacramento with Vlade Divac and Doug Christie