[Game] Preseason Game 4: Kings vs. Warriors, 12/17/2020, 6:00pm PST, 9:00pm EST

[whozit]

Watching the Kings make some effort on defense and play hard makes me think they have a lot of talented players. The problem is that when we look at the scoreboard the Warriors got 65 in the first half. Other teams just have more talent.

Maybe when nearly half the roster changes every year it is not rebuilding but just plain team building.

Team building or team churning? Monte's 1st year so he is excused for the moment but how long now has the majority of the team been flipped year to year?

 

[SacTownKid]

I think folks are stuck in their own heads on what they want Bagley to be and are ignoring what Luke, McNair and what is happening on the court is saying. The team already knows Marvin can play center and get you solid numbers in points and rebounds. What the team is doing is expanding his game. You can’t do that without letting him learn in-game. They want Marvin to initiate the fast break sometimes. Hit that short 3 in the corner. Every now and then try to hit the cutter from the high post. Then whenever needed, jump in the post and score with ease 1 on 1. Which lead to learning to pass out of double teams.

My biggest fear was that the team would put Marvin in a box and only let him rim run. That would be a huge waste of talent. This is the way to go with Marvin and I think McNair is willing to go through the growing pains to make him a well rounded threat on the floor.

Yes, Marvin can step right in and play center now. But we want player development, right? Well this is what player development looks like.

Then what's the point of "positionless basketball"? This is about combinations that allow you to keep up with the standards of winning. Walton is running lineups that can either space a little and are athletic or not at all. This isn't the way regardless of what position you want to call a player. In the end the duplication in a negative is what gets you. And you can't let him and your chances sink in the process of development. This is still an issue about time whether injuries were at fault or not. The bell tolls soon as to how much it costs you and whether you make a bad bet long term. Just like it was ridiculous to keep the baby gloves on Buddy for so long, contracts don't run 7 years any more which can be good, but that also creates a smaller window to discover what you have.

 

[SacTownKid]

Watching the Kings make some effort on defense and play hard makes me think they have a lot of talented players. The problem is that when we look at the scoreboard the Warriors got 65 in the first half. Other teams just have more talent.

Maybe when nearly half the roster changes every year it is not rebuilding but just plain team building.

This Warriors team has more talent? No, just no. This is the CLEAR sign of what is going on here period.

 

[SacTownKid]

Team building or team churning? Monte's 1st year so he is excused for the moment but how long now has the majority of the team been flipped year to year?

I mean, literally there is no argument. Now, Vivek may be the ultimate problem, but right now unless he's making the calls for Walton then it's not the issue at this moment.

 

[Livinthedream]

Then what's the point of "positionless basketball"? This is about combinations that allow you to keep up with the standards of winning. Walton is running lineups that can either space a little and are athletic or not at all. This isn't the way regardless of what position you want to call a player. In the end the duplication in a negative is what gets you. And you can't let him and your chances sink in the process of development. This is still an issue about time whether injuries were at fault or not. The bell tolls soon as to how much it costs you and whether you make a bad bet long term. Just like it was ridiculous to keep the baby gloves on Buddy for so long, contracts don't run 7 years any more which can be good, but that also creates a smaller window to discover what you have.

I agree. But you can't discover what you have if you aren't allowing players to grow into something. The Kings are in position to see if Bagley works out in the type of role that they want him in. If it does work out, the core team is there and they can move forward. If Bagley isn't progressing the way the team wants, then they get a lottery pick and try to get a new piece. If it gets too far down the line with no success, then trade Fox and see what can be built from that haul.

As far as the lineups, it's going to be on McNair to get rid of the pieces that don't fit so Walton can't get conservative on us. Not even sure we know if there is a fit issue with Holmes and Bagley yet, because they have negligible minutes on the court together between last season and these 2 preseason games.

 

[ppine]

This Warriors team has more talent? No, just no. This is the CLEAR sign of what is going on here period.

We squeaked out a victory at home with a last second shot. Then we got soundly beat. The Warriors are not at full strength. They have more talent.

 

[ESP47]

I think folks are stuck in their own heads on what they want Bagley to be and are ignoring what Luke, McNair and what is happening on the court is saying. The team already knows Marvin can play center and get you solid numbers in points and rebounds. What the team is doing is expanding his game. You can’t do that without letting him learn in-game. They want Marvin to initiate the fast break sometimes. Hit that short 3 in the corner. Every now and then try to hit the cutter from the high post. Then whenever needed, jump in the post and score with ease 1 on 1. Which lead to learning to pass out of double teams.

My biggest fear was that the team would put Marvin in a box and only let him rim run. That would be a huge waste of talent. This is the way to go with Marvin and I think McNair is willing to go through the growing pains to make him a well rounded threat on the floor.

Yes, Marvin can step right in and play center now. But we want player development, right? Well this is what player development looks like.

I agree with everything you're saying other than Marvin being able to step in and play center now. He is not even remotely close to being a starting level NBA center. He would be one of the worst defending, if not the worst defending center in the league. That's not a guy you can just plug in to the 5 and be off to the races with. He's not a developed 5 that's now being developed into a 4. He's a player who has tweener problems because he can't defend the 5 but he can't play next to a 5 offensively either. He's kind of stuck in no man's land until he either develops defensive skills at the 5 or offensive skills at the 4.

I'm ok with him being developed at either position this year because it's more important than making a run at a sub .500 record with Barnes and Bjelica at the 4.

 

[SacTownKid]

I agree. But you can't discover what you have if you aren't allowing players to grow into something. The Kings are in position to see if Bagley works out in the type of role that they want him in. If it does work out, the core team is there and they can move forward. If Bagley isn't progressing the way the team wants, then they get a lottery pick and try to get a new piece. If it gets too far down the line with no success, then trade Fox and see what can be built from that haul.

As far as the lineups, it's going to be on McNair to get rid of the pieces that don't fit so Walton can't get conservative on us. Not even sure we know if there is a fit issue with Holmes and Bagley yet, because they have negligible minutes on the court together between last season and these 2 preseason games.

This isn't a team in the process of allowing one player to discover something at the cost of others. Clearly. The fact remains if they want him to be exclusively a PF then they aren't paying attention to the current trends of modern basketball. If anything putting him in that position would only stymie development. Playing at PF isn't the issue, it's the teams inability to spread as a result. You have Fox, Bagley, and Holmes out there. WTF is that? That's not development, that's just setting the plate of a nice belly full of failure.

 

[SacTownKid]

We squeaked out a victory at home with a last second shot. Then we got soundly beat. The Warriors are not at full strength. They have more talent.

Talent doesn't always win you games. Gameplan and usage are the biggest key indicators. Along with others but talent? I don't think so. That was arguably a team full of G-league material after their first 3-4 guys.

 

[Livinthedream]

This isn't a team in the process of allowing one player to discover something at the cost of others. Clearly. The fact remains if they want him to be exclusively a PF then they aren't paying attention to the current trends of modern basketball. If anything putting him in that position would only stymie development. Playing at PF isn't the issue, it's the teams inability to spread as a result. You have Fox, Bagley, and Holmes out there. WTF is that? That's not development, that's just setting the plate of a nice belly full of failure.

In my post, the point was that if it fails, you get a good draft pick. If it succeeds. It was good for development. I couldn't care less about getting Bjelica time at the 4 so we can space the floor. Same with putting Barnes in his optimal position of PF. These guys aren't part of the core. The bigger issue is having a PG who can't shoot and requires an offense built around what's best for his scoring. I like Fox, but he's not a number 1. He does not have one exceptional offensive talent except speed. If the Kings have to build around his offensive shortcomings, they're already going to fail.

It's understandable being tired of waiting for the Kings to make the playoffs, but without Bagley developing, we're back to being a team with the assets that might push for an 8th seed in the future and no further. That plan hasn't worked for the past 15 years.

To be clear, I'm not knocking Fox. He has limitations like any player. He will need another guy on the team who can consistently get his own shot. Whether we like Bagley's post ups or not, he is the only other player who can consistently score or get to the line on his own. That shouldn't be lost on anyone here. Playmaking is fine, but when push comes to shove in the NBA, the guy who can get shots on his own is the star.

 

[Groovygreg]

Amazing the anti Bagley crew on here is never going to give it a rest. He used his off hand, which has been one of his biggest criticisms on here, and finished in the post going right but I guess we’re going to just ignore that. Or ignore how he was the only one out there after the game was over getting his free throws up when the whole team deserved to be out there shooting with him after that performance from the line. I sure hope it’s not fans like this bunch that eventually drives Bags to another team with all the constant criticism because we can’t move on from a draft that took place nearly 3 years ago at this point

First of all, I didn’t mention anything about Bagley’s draft position, nor was it implied. Secondly, my statement that I’m waiting for Marvin to impress me is mild criticism at the worst. Lastly, if a professional athlete can’t handle a bit of heat from the fans then that individual isn’t mentally tough enough to be a winner.