Post game thoughts 12/21

[DaMan]

We are not perimeter oriented. We are not post oriented. We are chaos oriented.

This offense sucks.

I would say we are a perimeter oriented team when guys like Bibby, Martin, Brad, Artest and even salmons take most of our shots in most given games.

And everybody needs to stop taking about Martin. He had a great game we could talk about his strength and weakness later but tonight when he had a great game is not the night.

 

[swisshh]

If you want to talk about one-dimensional - it's KMoney. He can't pass, even directly

Funny, he had the best pass of the night.

Though he does need to work on finding teammates, as that would open up his game and the team's offense. I think it is something that will come in time. It's just experience and learning. He's gotten better each year and I wouldn't be suprised if passing becomes his next point of emphasis.

He also, while too light to be a defensive stopper, can play some D and gets steals and rebounds well when he doesn't leak out. He just leaks out a lot, which is part of the whole Kings trying to run philosophy.

And Martin is not like Peja, because towards the end here, Peja was totally one dimensional, even on offense. Martin can score in more ways than Peja could and when he doesn't shoot well he gets to the line. Sometimes its phantom calls, but there are also plenty of times where Martin gets hit hard and theres no call. Refs, due to the league's low standard of officiating, don't know how to ref KMart because of his lanky stature. They let him flop on defense, they call handcheck fouls all the time when he drives, but he can get pummeled at the rim and have someoen land on him when shooting a three(like tonight) and there be no whistle.

 

[Roman]

Why should the guy who's single-handedly getting us back in the game have to get anyone else involved?

Well, because if everyone is involved everyone starts playing harder and more aggressive.

The shots he hit weren't easy, high percentage shots. He hit them, but some of them were real forces with better options. But, he hit them anyway. (Is this a sign of KMoney turning the corner to stardom or becoming greedy? Not really sure. I think it was a bit of frustration and knowing the bucket was the size of the Atlantic)

The other guys should have been going out of their way to keep him involved... We got back in the game *because* Martin took the game over, and you're acting like we made the run *in spite* of Martin taking all he shots.

No ... no... no ... Don't get me wrong. Martin played really well tonight and was the reason we were coming back (alongside a renewed vigor on the defensive end).

In some places, I think he should have passed instead of shooting - but he hit the shot. So my screams were more:
"YOU DUMB LITTLE BASTA... oh, good shot! Come on Kings!"

Martin did nothing bad tonight. He's never doing anything bad. He's a very good player. That's why I really like him ... he doesn't make boneheaded plays very often.

But, he's best when he's playing WITHIN the offense instead of OUTSIDE of it.

Like I've said, I'm frustrated at the losing. KMoney is not my target. Please don't mistake me. I just don't want him to get this over-inflated sign on his back that says: "BLAME ME IF I START TO MISFIRE!"

 

[thatguy]

Dude, you were asking why Kenny Thomas gets so much hate. I told you why I think he does, even though I don't blame him for being undersized or overpayed. What is there to defend?

Well, I guess this part to begin with:

Let's see, replaced greatest player in Sacramento Kings history, seriously undersized at his position, spent most of last season chucking bad jumpers from the free throw line, constantly sulking on the bench and/or causing trouble by demanding to start in front of an All-Star. I can't imagine why he would be taking any heat from the fans.

I mostly just thought the Justin Williams thing was a cheap shot which makes fun of people for holding a position that I think is very defensible -- cheap young guys are a better use of roster space than aging veterans who never play. Deal with it? Oh that's right, cause we're too busy winning games right now to worry about playing rookies with potential.

Right. "Cheap young guys vs. aging veterens." Was I comparing Williams to Taylor? I didn't think so...

 

[thatguy]

Eh, you're arguing with me.
First rule of fight club ... I'm right.
Second rule of fight club ... you're wrong.
Third rule of fight club ... you're right if you agree with me.

Bad call, my friend.

 

[SLAB]

TGFK --- Thank God for Kevin...Without him we would be so utterly unwatchale it wouldn't even be fair.

Ron Artest --- Proving my theory he's nowhere near 100% for whatever reason...He was so much bigger (impact wise) last year, and I think something has to be up.

Salmons --- Can get to the rim any time he wants...Insists on taking threes for some ungodly reason.

Price --- Did he spit on coach at practice or something? Sheesh...He seemed to be doing pretty well earlier.

Kenny Thomas --- Wasn't his fauly he replaced greatest Sacramento player ever, shot 50% last year, and is our only "big" who gives noticable energy on the boards. And were you referring to SAR as an All-Star? Maybe 5 years ago, but not today...He is not the problem.

Bibby --- Ugh...Why didn't you take your 2 weeks off?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

And Martin is not like Peja, because towards the end here, Peja was totally one dimensional, even on offense. Martin can score in more ways than Peja could and when he doesn't shoot well he gets to the line...

Indeed: when you can bury a wide open three, and then come back a few possessions later and dribble between two guys before dunking it over a seven-footer, you're absoultely not one-dimensional.

I watched every Kings game for nearly three years straight before Webber got traded, and every game last season before BP got traded; I'm about ninety-nine percent certain that BP's never dunked on a center in his career, ever.

 

[Roman]

Indeed: when you can bury a wide open three, and then come back a few possessions later and dribble between two guys before dunking it over a seven-footer, you're absoultely not one-dimensional.

Okay, that was NASTY. I completely forgot about that.

But, to be fair, no one is calling the Wiz a good defensive team. KMoney hasn't been able to create his own shot with much success all year. Perhaps he figured something out, but I'm leaning toward he was just feeling it tonight.

But, he can slam a few times every game to prove me wrong. I won't be mad at you, Kev!

 

[Bricklayer]

I actually think this game was a step forward for Kevin precisely because it was maybe the first one where he's truly shown that he is NOT like Peja. Or at least wasn't tonight. The comparisons have been apt otherwise, but you always wondered what would happen if Kevin actually tried to attack rather than just doing that weird giveup thing.

Now of course I want to see it against a team I couldn't score 20 on myself, in a slowdown slugfest etc. But nonetheless, tonight he actually attacked. I have repeatedly pointed out that he was miles away from a #1 because he kind of "cheated" for his points -- wide open jumpers, leakouts on the break etc.. Points are points, but those kinds of points don't actually mean much in a half court setting when you need somebody to create against a set defense and score/pass for you. Kevin has rarely done that for us. But tonight is a very odd night indeed to be raising that complaint since tongiht he very much did attack, did create. It was against a disorganized crap defense, and hence I want to see him beat a good attentive one. But stylistically at least he was much more the true #1 tonight than he has been at any other point that I have watched him. Tonight he actually BEAT the defense rather than just waiting for them to make a mistake.

 

[Roman]

It was against a disorganized crap defense, and hence I want to see him beat a good attentive one. But stylistically at least he was much more the true #1 tonight than he has been at any other point that I have watched him. Tonight he actually BEAT the defense rather than just waiting for them to make a mistake.

You know what - it's got to start somewhere, eh?

I still think the team will operate better as a post oriented team, but I think I might be alone in this. I don't think our shots need to come from the post, but I think we'll get better looks overall if we use the post more.

I love to see Kev get that wide open 3 ... because more often than not, you can count it.

 

[Kingsgurl]

I guess I get frustrated how we, as a community, latch onto something and try to make it something it's not. Then when it doesn't perform to this standard, we tear it apart.

Oddly enough, you were the only one doing this in this thread? The kids 23. He's been the one bright spot to an otherwise eye-blistering season.
Not making his team-mates better? I'm not sure Michael Jordan could help some of his team-mates at this point in time. Some of them are REALLY struggling, the rest just aren't all that great, average at best. Harsh, but true. We are under-sized as a team and, with a few notable exceptions, lack the athleticism to make up for it. We don't play like any sort of cohesive unit most of the time. We seem to lack an identity. At the beginning of the season, we were going to be a defensive team.....well that lasted, what, 3 games? Now, we aren't very good defensively, and with the exception of Martin, lack any sort of consistent offensive output either. Not exactly a recipe for success.

 

[Roman]

Oddly enough, you were the only one doing this in this thread?

In this thread, yes. In the past there have been calls elsewise and I just wanted to be on the opposite fence post saying "slow down".

Not making his team-mates better? I'm not sure Michael Jordan could help some of his team-mates at this point in time.

You're joking right? Add one of the best defenders in all of basketball and a great distributor ...

with the exception of Martin, lack any sort of consistent offensive output either. Not exactly a recipe for success.

Well, to be fair, with the exception of Martin - the only people getting consistant touches are Artest and Bibby.

 

[hrdboild]

Dude, you were asking why Kenny Thomas gets so much hate. I told you why I think he does, even though I don't blame him for being undersized or overpayed. What is there to defend?

Well, I guess this part to begin with:

Let's see, replaced greatest player in Sacramento Kings history, seriously undersized at his position, spent most of last season chucking bad jumpers from the free throw line, constantly sulking on the bench and/or causing trouble by demanding to start in front of an All-Star. I can't imagine why he would be taking any heat from the fans.

I mostly just thought the Justin Williams thing was a cheap shot which makes fun of people for holding a position that I think is very defensible -- cheap young guys are a better use of roster space than aging veterans who never play. Deal with it? Oh that's right, cause we're too busy winning games right now to worry about playing rookies with potential.

Right. "Cheap young guys vs. aging veterens." Was I comparing Williams to Taylor? I didn't think so...

You know what? This is already over and done with but I'm going to reply to it anyway just because you still don't understand my point.

You were insinuating in your original post that people should shut up already about Justin Williams.

Here is a guy that doesn’t seem to need plays called for him but still rebounds and defends and, perhaps most importantly, tries hard seemingly all the time. If his name were Justin Williams would people love him?

Yeah it's a clever way to slide in a little jab at people who think we'd be better with Justin Williams on the roster without actually having to argue anything. But you're not at all comparing Justin Williams to Kenny Thomas, you're just using his name to make a joke at other people's expense. I don't see why I should let you get away with that. Justin Williams wasn't competing for a roster spot with Kenny Thomas in training camp, he was competing with Mo Taylor (who missed just about every shot he took) and Potapenko (who spent most of it deactivated because he couldn't pass the endurance test). And we came out of training camp with those two on the roster and not Justin Williams. Since then, the afformentioned veterans have done (predictably) nothing of consequence for this team other than sit on the bench and/or get suspended while Justin Williams is playing at a very high level in the NBDL, leading that league in rebounds and blocked shots. We also happen to be worst in the league at blocked shots. The NBDL is not the NBA by a long shot, but there is at least some reason to believe he would automatically become the best shot blocker on our team if we added him. There are other topics to argue this issue so there's no reason to re-tread here, and considering this topic is over with anyway I doubt I'll get a response, but why should I allow you to insult other people without holding you accountable for it? Sure it was maybe a lighthearted little aside and you didn't mean anything by it, but people get away with this stuff all the time and no one calls them on it. If you say something, you should be prepared to back it up.

 

[thatguy]

Okay, I'm having a tough time understanding why you are getting bent about this but I'll try to clarify. If you go back and read what I wrote, without tainting it with what you want it to say, I made no attempts to disparage Justin Williams or those who think he should be on the team. What I was merely trying to point out was Kenny Thomas seems to provide some qualities that a Williams-type player would bring to a squad (sans, of course, the holy grail of 'shotblocker.') Think of it more as 'lay off Kenny Thomas' than 'Justin Williams sucks and all those who think he should be on an NBA team are ignorant jerks.'

Better now?

 

[Bricklayer]

The holy grail of shotblocker is kind of a critical tipping point. Kenny does one thing well, but since he is too small to do the other thing that normally shoudl accompany it -- defend -- he's dubious even as a roleplayer. You can have a roleplayer who does ALL of the things except scoring. But now you've got a roleplayer who only does ONE thing and what you have is a starter for a bad team. Namely us.

None of which to is to say that Justin Williams is better than Kenny Thomas. It is however to sya that players of Justin Williams' type are almost always more useful than players of Kenny Thomas's type.

I should also note the obvious point -- if Kenny Thomas were being advocated as a minimum contract 12th man to take Pot's place on the roster he would be held in much more favorable regard than as a poor, inconsistent starter with an attitude problem and a maddeningly unmoveable contract.

 

[thatguy]

I'm not going to disagree with any of what you wrote there.

I see things slightly differently, i.e., I think shotblocking is overrated (the 'holy grail' had a tinge of sarcasm attached to it).

All I wanted to get out is that he plays hard, from what I've seen, almost all the time. Which should be commended. He's an easy target because he's smaller than he 'should be' and he hauls in a lot a cash.

 

[Larry89]

We have the shortest "quickest" starting PF in the league.

Our center is the forthcoming of Reggie Miller in a hick's gigantic slow body. He loves to shoot, but he can't really do anything else.

I feel sad

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I see things slightly differently, i.e., I think shotblocking is overrated (the 'holy grail' had a tinge of sarcasm attached to it).

I find myself inclined to suspect that this is only ever said by fans of team that don't have shotblockers... I can't imagine that there's some team with a shotblocker where the fans think, "you know, we'd be just as good without this guy."

 

[nbrans]

I find myself inclined to suspect that this is only ever said by fans of team that don't have shotblockers... I can't imagine that there's some team with a shotblocker where the fans think, "you know, we'd be just as good without this guy."

You might ask some Sixers fans how they feel about Samuel Dalembert.

 

[hrdboild]

Okay, I'm having a tough time understanding why you are getting bent about this but I'll try to clarify. If you go back and read what I wrote, without tainting it with what you want it to say, I made no attempts to disparage Justin Williams or those who think he should be on the team. What I was merely trying to point out was Kenny Thomas seems to provide some qualities that a Williams-type player would bring to a squad (sans, of course, the holy grail of 'shotblocker.') Think of it more as 'lay off Kenny Thomas' than 'Justin Williams sucks and all those who think he should be on an NBA team are ignorant jerks.'

Better now?

Fair enough. Words can be interpreted differently depending on how you read them.